Heritage Auctions
 

(Sorry Jonathan, but this perplexes me and irritates me)

Heritage "sold" this program in Nov 2011 to the "high bidder" (which had to be Heritage) for $8365.

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7041&lotNo=81228

You can buy it now from the "owner" on their Site for $10,456.

It's currently on Ebay being sold by Heritage:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/120941283288...84.m1438.l2649

Is this just a case of Heritage bidding the item up, nobody then outbid Heritage, so Heritage was "the winner" and is again trying to sell the item.

I find the buy it now from the owner on Heritage Site for $10,456 a little odd since nobody bid as much as $8000 for the item except them. No wonder theirs is the only auction house I can never win anything from. They outbid you, not other bidders. I see things I thought I lost to someone else being re-sold by them. I would have won a few of these items had it been just me against other bidders. Why they stack the deck against you is pretty irritating.

they use their n.p. gresham in house account to bid on items they think are worth getting at that price. they admit they are buyers and they will turn around and try to resell it at a profit. the difference between shilling/pushing the price up that way, which could lead to accidentally getting stuck with an item on ocassion, - and bidding with the intent to buy the item and win it outright because they want the item, is intent. since nobody can prove what their intent is when n.p gresham bids, their disclaimer that they reserve the right to bid on items, which is in the fine print, stands and it's legal but i don't like it. they should either be dealers or auctioneers, but not both in my book.

This is an issue that has been discussed on the board previously, and Mr. Roste has it almost completely right. Every bid Heritage places is an intent to buy at wholesale level. We don’t expect to win much at this level since the vast majority of our offerings sell at retail, but we offer the same price we would at a dealer’s booth at the National, for instance. These “house bids” are placed exactly seven days prior to the closing of the auction.

In these two regards, our “house bidding” policy is distinctly different from shill bidding. A shill bidder has no interest in owning a piece at his high bid. We do have an interest. And, most typically, shill bidding is used to “run up” another bidder’s absentee bid. Our “house bids” are placed a week prior to closing, long before the vast majority of competitive bidding takes place.

I hope this makes the distinction clear, but I certainly invite anybody who wishes to discuss it further to email me directly, or to call me at the office. My contact information is below.

This should be an interesting thread.

Sketch. Any chance of not doing this?

[QUOTE=Heritage Sports;1015232]

In these two regards, our “house bidding” policy is distinctly different from shill bidding. A shill bidder has no interest in owning a piece at his high bid. We do have an interest. And, most typically, shill bidding is used to “run up” another bidder’s absentee bid. Our “house bids” are placed a week prior to closing, long before the vast majority of competitive bidding takes place.

QUOTE]

You can use terms "house bids" but there is no difference between a "house bid" and "shill" bidding. I been attending auctions since I was a teenager and I have seen just about everything at auctions. While bidding by the owner of an item, who shows up at the sale, is considered shill bidding, it is accepted and happens very often. When the auction house places bids, it's again, "shill" bidding.

I have seen an auctioneers bid on an items but only because they could not get a decent starting bid and only seen this a couple times in my life. I have also seen auctioneers bidding against their own staff and everbody knew what was going on. No customers were getting bid up.

So you can call it what you will, but personally, if I knew an auction house was placing bids on items that were on consignment, without disclosure to the other bidders, I would never set foot in that auction house again.

Although legal I'm sure, it doesn't seem all that ethical.
Unless I'm missing something.

I think it's still shill bidding in my little mind. Heritage says they bid a week before. What difference does it make if you bid a week before or that day the auction ends they are still jacking the price up starting the bidding off early. It's making people bid higher on an item more than it should be. That is what gets me with ebay. You see an auction start at 6 days and people bidding right out of the box. Never could understand the reasoning with that unless someone won't be by there computor for the next 6 days but not likely considering all the people that bid early. All that is doing is rasing the price up.

It's lame. Anyway you slice it, it is bidding against the lifeblood of an auction house (its bidders). You may be making the consignor happy by inflating the prices but you sure aren't making any friends with the bidders.

And I, as a consignor, wouldn't want to do business with an auction house that was alienating bidders. The fact that it is in the rules doesn't matter. It isn't right.

I also think any seller, be it a large house or a small-timer on eBay, placing a bid on their own listing is shill bid. You want to have a price floor on an item? Put a reserve on it before the auction even begins...

...but this conversation is re-creating the wheel, no?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=shill+bidding

I don't think it is that big of a deal. They are bidding with the intent to own. This means they think the price is too low. Its not like their shill bidding thousands of dollars on a Mordedcai Brown which will never be sold for a profit at that level. I do believe that it should be disclosed on a auction lot if Heritage is bidding, it very well may be, I'm not that familiar with Heritage.

Despite the clarity and ease of Heritage's website (extreme sarcasm) I could not find their auction rules. However if I remember correctly they allow house bidding without restrictions. They also allow employees to bid with insider knowledge of other bids and bidders. The representative on this thread may claim that they only place house bids seven days in advance of closing - a problematic policy at that - but there is nothing in their own rules to limit house bidding to that in any way. Personally I do not feel comfortable bidding in this sort of situation. If I have misrepresented due to my faulty memory, please clarify where I am wrong.
JimB

They tell you what they do and to Jim's point they don't seem to limit themselves in the fine print unless he missed it. They make no secret about it, if you don't like it don't bid with them. I don't like it and I don't bid with them.

Perhaps next time I bid against a "house" bid, they'll put me on an even playing field by waiving the 20% advantage the "house" has by not having to pay the BP...

heritage
 

they do the same thing with coins in the last 18 months theyve sold the same coin 5 times including giving it on consignment to a dealer who then tried to sell it to my outright...if its not illegal it should be

It creates a false market with false prices realized. In the case of the program above, if Heritage is in fact "the owner", it is misleading in that respect as well.
JimB

Someone was kind enough to send me a link to their rules. Here is rule #21. It does not seem fair to me. So I guess it is not just the auction house and its employees that can bid and modify bids with insider information, but anybody that they deem an "affiliate".
JimB

"21. The Auctioneer, its affiliates, or their employees consign items to be sold in the Auction, and may
bid on those lots or any other lots. Auctioneer or affiliates expressly reserve the right to modify
any such bids at any time prior to the hammer based upon data made known to the Auctioneer
or its affiliates. The Auctioneer may extend advances, guarantees, or loans to certain consignors."

So the question becomes if you don't like it, do you still patronize them? It's not like they aren't telling you they reserve the right to do these things. Again, not defending the practice but complaining about it and continuing to bid with them doesn't seem to accomplish much.

The fine print says they reserve the right to bid, it does not say they must bid only 7 days before the auction ends, that is their own self imposed rule that they can disregard at any time without breaking their disclosure in the fine print that 99 percent of the bidders haven't read. It should be in bold print on each auction listing./

And Jonathon, if it is Heritage's policy to limit themselves to 7 days before the auction ends, why isn't that in the disclosure?e

If a babe ruth bat is expected to sell for a million dollars and heritage's wholesale limit is 650,000, and they know for certain , 100% that the end bid will be above that price, do they still place the 650,000 dollar bid 7 days before auction ends if the price has not hit that level yet? Remember, they know the big boys who are interested in this piece, they probably sent out golden engraved invitations to them.

do they put in the 650,000 bid anyway, granted they want to buy it at that price, but they know for a fact it will go higher. The secondary effect of placing the bid they know the can't win is to bump up the price sooner in the auction. They can always say they wanted to buy it at 650,000, but since the knew they couldn't ever win it at that price, do they place the bid anyway? Is it ethical for an auction house to place that bid they know they can't win on a hot item they know will go through the roof?

That's the slippery slope of auction houses who want to be dealers as well. Why not just be an auction house? How do customers benefit by competing against the auction house itself for items? The auction house has all the inside informtion, the customers don't.

I closed my Heritage Account over a year ago because of shifty rules like this, poor customer service and a horrendous website. I would never consign to Heritage, or obviously bid on anything they have for sale. I'm a drop in the bucket, but drops eventually add up to a waterfall.

Joe Squires

Double post /////

Perhaps this thread is worth moving to the Main Page?

I agree that everyone should go in knowing that this business is shady and only be surprised when they aren't.

However, the only way a company changes the way they do business is for their customers to speak up and demand the change both in words but also in action. I've stopped biding with Heritage as I did when the information about H&S came out in a previous thread. H&S changed their policy. Will Heritage follow suit or blatantly ignore concerns in favor of short term gains?

we spoke up and demanded they stop listing their autographs with a jsa auction loa before the items were actually seen by jsa, and it took several people several attempts before they changed it and people got their accounts banned from heritage as a result of demanding this change.

so speaking up has its punishment.

I consigned 1 item to heritage, and it got an internet bid several days before it hit the live auction floor. it got no further bids on the floor but heritage told me the buyer did not pay so i got my item back and never got my money. heritage couldnt tell me who the winning bidder was. If they would tell me who bid on my item and didnt pay, i would feel a lot more confident that it wasnt heritage bidding themselves and then getting buyers remorse. I have no poof heritage bid on the item, but i have no proof they didn't bid on it either. Obviously I haven't consigned anything else to them. I had three months of my time wasted regardless.

What disturbs me and something I didn't realize is not only does it say nothing about heritage's ability to bid on an item right up to the hammer, it expressley reserves the right to modify or bid right up to the hammer.

This 7 day bid limit that jonathon mentioned is nonsense.

it also is very distubing that it says it can modify its bid right up to the hammer using any data received. so if they find out something about a lot that isn't known or disclosed to the general bidding public, they reserve the right to cancel or reverse their bid, or lower it, but of course you can't.

Didn't Mastro get shut down and in trouble for shill bidding? Isn't this basicly the same thing that they are doing but maybe they word it different? I don't know. I guess each auction house does what they want and if you want to participate you do and if not your choice. There is alot of auction house to choose from and that is probably a good thing.

This doesn't make sense, you say "Every bid Heritage places is an intent to buy at wholesale level". Well your bid here won the item, yet you immediately re-list for sale on your Site and you attempt to re-sell it on Ebay. So did the "Consignor" of this item to Heritage actually get paid? I highly doubt it. It most likely is an item owned by Heritage, you bid it up attempting to get max value. It's shill bidding, but you can get away with it because you clearly state we bid on items aka shill bid.

And your claims of Sales totals are very false, because I'm sure you include all these items that were "sold", but really remain with Heritage for future auction or sell on Ebay. So anyone then can say they sold millions of dollars in their auction but when your "winning" your own items, it's a false claim.

And this......"you have an interest in owning", so if u won this item with hopes of "owning", why is it immediately re-listed for sale and then put on Ebay for Sale as well. You have ZERO interest in owning it, you guys bid it up to get max value, if in your eyes u do not get enough from a real bidder, you win the item by default and thus try to re-sell it.

It's a total crock of sh-t!

Obviously u can't come on here and say yes we shill bid.....but don't come on here and try to slap a coat of paint on a piece of sh-t and try to sell your BS.

Just let us talk about the funny business your company may be doing so bidders and consignors are aware of what you may get with Heritage. If u want to pay retail or higher bid with Heritage, if you want to consign to Heritage be aware that your item may not sell to a real bidder and u may be SOL.

As far as I can see there is nothing in the stated policy to prevent Heritage Auctions from checking what all the top all bids are ten minutes before closing of the auction and then raising them all to their limit with the house account. If this does not happen, I think it would be in Heritage Auctions' best interest to formally state that in the rules. In a business with so much room for misleading shenanigans, it seems that formally limiting what can be done in stated rules rather than leaving it open would be a policy that would instill trust. The way it is written now, it is difficult for me to trust what is going on there.
JimB

Read this article.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156.html

I've learned the hard way that no matter how much I may want something someone is selling, if my gut says I can't trust the person involved in the transaction, I should walk away from the deal. Every time I've ever violated this gut feeling, I've been burned.

jeff

"One way to make sure those babies keep rising in price: Halperin allows Heritage employees--himself included--to bid on items it auctions off. What seller wouldn't appreciate having a shill right there on the premises? Especially one with deep pockets. "

BABU: You shilled my bid?
HERITAGE: Well not technically.
BABU: I kill you!!
HERITAGE: Well what about Mastro?
BABU: I kill both of you!!
HERITAGE: Babu?!
BABU: No Babu! No Babu! You bad auctioneer! You very bad auctioneer! You very lazy bad auctioneer!

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...babu_bhatt.jpg

This reminds me of the urban legend about a handful of NY vendors selling 1952 Topps Mantles back and forth amongst themselves inflating the Mantle price back in the 1970's

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/9hUy9ePyo6Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Jason,
You crack me up. But the silence is deafening. What are we to presume by this?
JimB

Scene from a Few Good Auctions

HA: You want answers?
Kaffee (Tom Cruise): I think I'm entitled to them.
HA: You want answers?
Kaffee: I want the truth!
HA: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has auctions. And those auctions have to be run by men with no values. Who's gonna do it? You Mr. Moderator? You Mr. Collector? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for cards you can't afford and you curse the auction houses for having them. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that by cheating collectors, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me to run that auction. You need me to run that auction.
We use words like house accounts, consignments, buyer's premium...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent cheating everybody. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very auctions I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on bidding on my cards. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up your collect and go home. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!
Kaffee: Did you order the shill bidding?
HA: (quietly) I did the job I was asked to do.
Kaffee: Did you order the shill bidding?
HA: You're goddamn right I did!!

Case closed.

jeff

Jeff,
Absolutely hilarious!
JimB

+1

I've been attending auctions since the 70s. The rules and dynamics are in my blood and I am shocked that these guys are doing this. Of course I shouldn't be shocked by anything in this day and age but you know what i mean. Who do these guys think they're fooling? Its not right and they should know that.

And again, movie scene.....hysterical. And true.

Adam, Jason & Jeff -- too funny. And too bad this stuff is real.

We're going to make one last post on this topic and then simply direct any future inquiries back to this post. I'll try to be as clear and direct as I can.

Let me start by stating that I don't mean to "condescend" or insult anybody's intelligence, and if any attitude has been detected in any of my past text (and in my mind I was choosing my words judiciously) I think it's only fair to remember that these posts have been in response to people calling the integrity of Heritage, and by extension myself, into question. This is offensive, particularly due to the fact that it is entirely unwarranted. I think we could all acknowledge that the expected response to "Hey, you're a lying crook," isn't typically, "I beg your pardon, my dear sir, but I must respectfully disagree..." But this isn’t about me, and I certainly don’t want it to be. If you don’t like my words—apologies—but let’s keep focus on the topic.

It’s about Heritage.

I've been around this industry for well over a decade, and have seen a lot of different operations close up. Some were ok, some weren’t. But I say this from my heart, and would say it if I were no longer a HA employee--this is the cleanest, most forthright and honest, most transparent business I've ever personally seen. I don't mean just the memorabilia business. Any business. That's a strong statement, I know. I wouldn't say it if it wasn't true. I might toe the company line, but I wouldn't be so adamant here. I hope at least some of you will take this to heart. I'm not one to throw stones at other organizations--that's not my style--but if anybody truly believes that Heritage is anywhere near the top of the list of worthy targets in this industry then we're clearly operating in different planes of reality.

Every year every consignment director at Heritage, over 100 now in the various collectibles divisions under the HA umbrella, attends a nine-hour training session headed by the owners/founders of Heritage. You hear the word "transparency" like a mantra at these meetings. It is drilled into every Heritage employee, from the very top on down. Call up any consignment director at Heritage and ask about the word. It's practically a religion at Heritage. There's not a single one of us who hasn't had it imprinted upon his or her brain.

Jim Halperin, a visionary in the tradition of a Steve Jobs, was the pioneer of this. It started in coins, and everybody thought he was crazy. He started announcing reserves in an industry where they were always hidden (and still almost always are). He posted past results for similar coins on the actual lot listing for the coin! "If everybody sees it always sells for "X," we'll never get more than "X," people shouted in protest. But Jim was certain that the trust, the transparency, would pay off.

That was years before Heritage was the World's Largest Collectibles Auctioneer, so the proof is in the pudding.

He had a vision of doing something different, and this is it.

Ask around. Ask the top collectors who spend six or seven figures in a calendar year. Ask which houses they'll trust with absentee bids, and which they won't. Watch our auctions live on our website, or come to them in person. Everything, literally everything, is executed with complete transparency.

Honestly, may God help you if you ever broke that code as a HA employee. You could lose a big consignment, you could drop a Tiffany lamp, and you could keep your Heritage employment. You'd be lucky to leave the building with your head if you ever tried to cheat under the Heritage banner. But you'd definitely be leaving.

The particular topic of this thread is no exception to the Heritage code--the policy of house bidding. Every bidder is looking for a bargain--we understand that bidders wouldn't want us in competition for material they're trying to buy. And could anybody doubt how easy it would be for us to simply have cousin Fred in Albuquerque place our house bids, never tell anybody, and whatever he wins just sell quietly and privately? But that wouldn't be honest. That wouldn't be transparent. We place bids in our auctions and we report that we do it. We report when we do it (seven days prior to the auction closing, never after). If we own material, we don't bid on it--we place posted reserves, or (more commonly) we just let it ride.

This is the truth. Period.

I don't think I can make this any more clear.

And if my assurances aren't enough for you, look at the situation in the coldest, most calculating manner possible. We sell close to a billion dollars worth of collectibles annually, over $800 million in the past twelve months. That success, that very considerable sum of money, would be placed at great peril if we were to engage in illegal (or even simply dishonest) tactics.

Heritage is the standard bearer for the way all of us wish the entire industry would operate. You don't have to like everything we do. You don't have to like us at all. But we announce every reserve. We advertise our house bidding policy. We maintain a public database of every single lot we've ever sold. We hide nothing.

We understand that the 800 pound gorilla is going to draw a lot of attention, so we aren't entirely surprised by the negativity we see on this board. But this suggestion that Heritage shill bids has to stop. It is false, which means it is also, by its very definition, libelous. At a certain point, Heritage will have to take more serious steps to protect itself against these claims. Let's hope it never has to come to that.

Again, this is our official response, and the last we'll make. Please spread the word on it. Sadly the Internet tends to bring out destructive instincts in people. You generally find that the people anxious to impugn the integrity of strangers based on a limited understanding of the facts aren’t the type of people one would typically associate with guys like Lou Gehrig or Christy Mathewson, but I hope everybody will understand why we prefer to keep our focus on them instead. The boards are fun that way--this way, they're not. If I’ve offended anybody, I apologize, but attacks on a person’s honor are a serious thing that lately has been taken far too lightly. How should one react?

I hope to hear some brave voices that will echo that sentiment and try to draw this board back out of the high school lunch room. We can do better.

Ending on a high note, hope to see you all in Baltimore at the National, and at our Platinum Night auction at Camden Yards. Bidding is live now at www.HA.com/Sports.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...deanwormer.jpg

Auctioneer Wormer: Greg, who are the worst bidders at our auctions?
Greg: Well that would be hard to say, sir. They're each outstanding in their own way.
Auctioneer Wormer: Cut the horse***t, son. I've got their bidding records right here. Who never overpays for cards? Who puts in dozens of placeholder bids and hopes to slide by? Every Halloween, we see lots close at wholesale prices. Every spring, the bottom feeders win cards.
Greg: You're talking about wholesale customers, sir.
Auctioneer Wormer: Of course I'm talking about wholesale customers, you TWERP! This year is going to be different. This year we are going to grab the bull by the BALLS and run up their bids.
Greg: What do you intend to do sir? The bidders are already subject to reserves.
Auctioneer Wormer: They are?
Greg: Yes, sir.
Auctioneer Wormer: Oh. Then as of this moment, we'll engage in DOUBLE SECRET RESERVES!
Greg: Double Secret Reserves, Sir?
Auctioneer Wormer: There is a little-known codicil in the auction rules which gives the company unlimited power to jack up prices in times of low bidding. Find me a way to run up the bids on these bottom-feeders while self-righteously proclaiming my honesty and integrity. Put Neidermeyer on it. He's a sneaky little s***, just like you, right? [Greg nods] The time has come for someone to put their foot down. And that foot is me.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...size/tyler.jpg

Tyler Durden: Welcome to our Auction.
The first rule of our Auction is: we bid in our own Auction.
The second rule of our Auction is: we BID in our OWN Auction!
Third rule of our Auction: someone's bid is really low, looks like they'll get a bargain, might actually make a profit, we run up the price.
Fourth rule: at least one bidder before we bid.
Fifth rule: one house bid at a time, fellas.
Sixth rule: Just shut up and eat your free food, N54ers.
Seventh rule: auction items will sell for what we say they have to.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time bidding with us, you have to be shilled.

In the name of honesty and transparency jonathan, who bid on my consignment, and then didn't pay? I would really like to know. I don't know and I would like to know, but since heritage knows and i don't, how about honestly and transparently telling me who it was?

It was a sonny liston signed exhibition contract signed "charles sonny liston" to refresh your memory. it was in the signature auction a couple of autumns ago.

You go on to say that heritage doesnt do anything wrong, because it wouldn't be honest.

Is saying that an autographed item has a jsa auction loa and post it for live internet weekly auction bidding when jsa hadn't looked at the item yet, is that honest?

Your post rings hollow to me because heritage has shown to say something that isn't true regarding those jsa auction loa's by listing "jsa auction loa" when jsa hadn't looked at it yet. we all know what 'saying something that isn't true' really is.

I have no proof heritage has ever shilled bid, because any time the house bids on an item, you have to read the mind of the person bidding to figure out if they want to genuinely buy it, or just run up the price. since I don't have a mind reading machine, there is no way to know.

I give them the benefit of the doubt and take your word that they are bidding to buy, but their propensity to tell people to that they are naive and 'don't know how a big auction house works' when heritage claims auction loa's when there is none, and only doing something about it 6 months later after the heat was too much for them does not bode well for their claim of honesty and transparency.

True honesty and transparency would have been changing your policy towards listing premature auction LOA's right away and admitting that it wasn't cool to do it that way, not trying to ride it out for half a year and hope the controversy goes away. And only then say that heritage is doing something that the customer wants and is happy to be the shining example of an auction house, to paraphrase. Then ban people like me on the back end for letting top management know of the problem.

It's very visionary of heritage to put in the rules the ability of heritage to bid on the consignement lots themselves and to be able to modify any bid at any time for any reasn using any data they receive right up to the hammer.

And to put it where arguably most people don't read, admittedly, by their own volition, no one is forcing them not to read it, i agree, but the average heritage bidder is going to have some difficulty finding the page that spells out the terms, and they are also not expecting it to happen that they would have to look at the terms just to find out if it happens at not. It's a foreign concept to a lot of bidders that auction houses can actually do this if they just put it in the terms?

Put it black and white up front on each auction lot so people know! That's real transparency! How does it benefit bidders for the house bidding terms to be on some page they have to search for instead of at each individual auction listing?

If I am wrong, please correct me with point by point, detailed refutations because i want to be totally clear and also fair, and I will admit where I haven't been correct if its pointed out to me, but it also means cutting out the talking points and getting to the bottom of why heritage believes its good for them to auction lots and also bid on them, and the same people in charge of these terms are the same who thought putting jsa auction loa's on items that jsa hadn't seen yet, was an idea that was just fine when they eventually reversed course and took those jsa tags off only after people complained.

Going back to Facebook, less drama.

Rawn

Thanks for your response. I've tried to respond with care and tact and hoping that you're receive my questions in that spirit. Posting the Sound of Silence clip was a playful reminder that we were waiting for a response.

To your points:

The problem I have with this statement is that it is without relative comparison. Just because it is the most honest you have been involved in doesn't mean that there are not problems that should be dealt with to improve the honesty and integrity that you believe the company has. The statement closes you off to improvement and change. It also doesn't matter if another company is doing worse. As an illustration: when someone (say my wife), tells me that she doesn't like something about me, I don't tell her that there are worse husbands. I actually listen to her and reflect on what it is she is trying to tell me. I ask that you do the same.

This is THE PROBLEM. Because it is in the rules and stated and observed is not a good reason to do it. There have been many arguments in this thread and elsewhere why it is a problem both for consignors and bidders. The fact that (as you state above) "you could have cousin Fred do it" and you don't doesn't change anything. You might as well have cousin Fred do it because we don't know who is doing it. Does it state in the auction that the item was just bid up by the house? So, when I go to place the next bid I know that the house has bumped it up to its current level?

Also, When you buy it at that level and then put it in your store, do you cut the original consignor a piece of that secondary sale? Shouldn't the consignor that put their faith and trust in your sales skills be the beneficiary of that secondary sale? Why should they sell to you at wholesale level only for you to reach a secondary profit?

It doesn't sit right with me as a consignor or bidder. If as a consignor I saw my item sell for more a few months after my auction with you, I'd think that you didn't do right by me and sold it in a way that maximized profit for you but not me. Why not advise me to sell in your secondary market in the first place? Divert items from your auction to that market and thus eliminate the need for you to buy Wholesale and compete with your bidders? Just stop the practice of bidding on your own auctions. It isn't right.

It doesn't matter what happened in the past. We are where we are. Let's move forward and stop bidding on our own auctions. Please.

I appreciate you coming on here and discussing policies and practices at Heritage Auctions. I don't know if we have ever met, but you come across as sincere in your writings here. However there are a couple points I would like to address that I think can be beneficial for Heritage Auctions.

There is a third option - not to bid in your own auctions and have a binding policy that backs it up. I have no doubt that other auction houses shill bid with "Uncle Fred". You all could choose not to bid in your own auctions overtly or covertly.

This is not the policy stated in your rules. There is no limitation in your rules that would demand you stop bidding seven days prior to the auction closing. If there is "never [house bidding] after", why not change the written rules in accordance with that to put our minds at ease. Otherwise, as it is stated now it sounds like there is no reason for the house to refrain from bidding all absentee bids up to their max just before the close of the auction.

Also, you say the house does not bid on its own material, but your explicit rules say that doing so would be fine. If it never happens, please change the written rule.

You can make a lot of people a lot more comfortable if the written rules reflected the actual practices you claim. Seems like there would be nothing to lose and everything to gain by doing so.

Again, thank you for your willingness to come on here. And thank you for your consideration of these suggestions.

JimB

OK, I've had some fun with this thread but in all seriousness, I am appalled by the twisted thinking behind this comment:

"Every bidder is looking for a bargain--we understand that bidders wouldn't want us in competition for material they're trying to buy."

No, you clearly don't understand that, because if you did you would realize that every bid Heritage places on its own account does the exact opposite: it takes away the bargain that the bidder might otherwise get in a truly open market and directly competes with the bidders.

Jason's point also is well taken about consignments. I would never, ever consider consigning to Heritage as long as I know that they might try to buy my item in the guise of an auction to resell for a profit. If I want to wholesale my stuff I might as well just wholesale directly to a dealer for cash on delivery and not waste my time waiting around for a consignment to be auctioned and paid.

I guess the bottom line is that taking at least the 19.5% Buyer's Premium out of the hides of consignors isn't enough, so Heritage's management feels it is justified in taking away lots that are good wholesale buys so it can resell them and reap additional profits from their consignors. The justifications are simply insults to our intelligence carefully crafted by corporate flacks to divert attention from what is going on.

Frank Lopez: You know what a chazzer is?
Tony Montana: No, Frank, you tell me. What is a chazzer?
Frank Lopez: It's a Yiddish word for "pig." See, the guy, he wants more than what he needs. He don't fly straight no more.

A personal opinion is not libelous. Sooooo....

My personal OPINION is that house bidding is shill bidding. Perhaps only for the purpose of setting a reserve amount but its still shill bidding. Others may disagree but this practice is not acceptable to me.

Another policy I have is to never do business with people who threaten me. In my OPINION, the above statement is a threat so I am done with HA.

jeff

I think they need a representative from the baseball community to help with their image, may I suggest Curt Schilling.

Pleased to see that 99% of members that posted here know the difference between right and wrong and won't be influenced by a hired spokesperson.

Noun 1. spin doctor - a public relations person who tries to forestall negative publicity by publicizing a favorable interpretation of the words or actions of a company or political party or famous person; "his title is Director of Communications but he is just a spin doctor"

This is one of the funniest things I have read on here!!!!

Oh yes, I forgot to address the threat of legal action for libel. How is inquiring about the policies and procedures of a company we do/did business with libel? How is questioning the ethics of certain practices (legal or not) libel? Were any untruths stated because that is what you are insinuating. You speak of feeling insulted and then do the same or worse with your insinuation. This has been an opportunity for a PR coup by Heritage if you were to modify your policies so that they are in line with hobby and ethical norms. Instead you have chosen to go on the offensive with this threat. Offending and threatening customers is never a good PR policy.
JimB

<<<Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferyepayne View Post
Scene from a Few Good Auctions

HA: You want answers?
Kaffee (Tom Cruise): I think I'm entitled to them.
HA: You want answers?
Kaffee: I want the truth!
HA: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has auctions. And those auctions have to be run by men with no values. Who's gonna do it? You Mr. Moderator? You Mr. Collector? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for cards you can't afford and you curse the auction houses for having them. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that by cheating collectors, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me to run that auction. You need me to run that auction.
We use words like house accounts, consignments, buyer's premium...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent cheating everybody. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very auctions I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on bidding on my cards. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up your collect and go home. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!
Kaffee: Did you order the shill bidding?
HA: (quietly) I did the job I was asked to do.
Kaffee: Did you order the shill bidding?
HA: You're goddamn right I did!!

Case closed.

jeff
This is one of the funniest things I have read on here!!!! >>>>



Agreed, this ranks right alongside The Archives threatening to sue themselves.

Any response from Heritage? You can get out in front of it and just stop the house bidding. At this point this thread has been up for 2 days and has 2300 views. This can't be good for business.

Just stop the house bidding in the sports auctions. We'll let all the other memorabilia, art, movie poster, western, coins, etc. go for now. Happy to have just one arm of the company do the right thing.

Pretty please. Stop polishing the turd. Just flush it and start again.

.

Thanks for making me do a spit take on that last line...off to get a new shirt now.

This is not directed at Heritage; I respect Heritage as I respect many auction houses with similar practice.

In a perfect world, auction houses should not be bidding on their own items.

Here are a few BIG reasons why:

(i) It creates an incentive for the exact opposite result the CONSIGNOR seeks - as it creates an incentive for the auction house to achieve poor results at auction for certain items. The auction house may (i) not include all beneficial information in the description and/or may not describe the item as well, (ii) not place the item in the the catalogue or auction line-up as well, and/or (iii) take inferior pictures of the item. All to lead to little bidding - and to a relatively inexpensive pick-up for the auction house.

(ii) Ability to run-up the price on absentee bidders. Someone sends in an absentee bid for 10k, current bidding is at 5k - Can the auction house bid 9k? if they really would like the piece for 9k, but knowing that they will not win the item at such amount? It is arguably not shill bidding if they would genuinely like to acquire such item at such price. For an auction house to avoid purposely running-up the price of items, there would have to be blockout screens to recordings of such absentee bids - to the very top people in the department (the ones who place the bids on behalf of the organization); I doubt such blockout screens exist generally.

(iii) The auction house has 'insider information' with regard to the piece itself. It has knowledge about the particular lot that the public does not - provenance, additional background info. It is not a fair and level playing field for BIDDERS who are not the auction house.

(iv) The auction house has 'insider information' with regard to who has bid, and who is going to bid on a particular item via phone bidding, who has looked at the item and expressed interest. It is not fair to BIDDERS to have an auction house bidding with them - perhaps in an effort to bid them up, because of who they are in terms of wealth and collections, and pattern of bidding.

(v) Such bidding does amount in practice to a double, and secret, reserve.

(vi) Can the auction house renege on a bid claiming error? And be a continuing bidder despite non-payment.

Importantly, the fact that an auction house may tell you that they may bid against you, does not solve the above problems with such practice.

Pre-2009, credit card companies told us in small writing that if we defaulted on credit card payments, they would charge us whatever large annual percentage APR figure they arrived at, say 400%. That does not mean it was right, or fair, the fact they told us. Many cardholders just did not have places to go with better conditions. Now there are better laws governing such practice.

We are still in the Wild West with auctions. At some point, there may be laws against such practice, which benefits the auction house, but not its many forms of clients.

+1

jeff

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/NP0mQeLWCCo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This isn't directed at any auction house and no one specific but I just find the word Auction House means just that, you are a company in business that auctions consignors items. You are not an Auction and Bidding House. If that is the case use that word in your title

You're hiding whether it is you or a legitimate bidder bidding on the item. I don't know if it is the house bid, Cousin Fred, or another interested bidder. Disclose the house bids. Put a little red flag out there that said the last bid was a house bid. Then I know when I'm placing a bid, who I'm topping.

Interesting point. How about if that same public database didn't hide the fact that Heritage had won that particular lot? Shouldn't the people looking at that database know when Heritage has bid and won the lot? It would mean a lot to me and would make a difference in how I value that item.

Everyone here is having a little fun but also asking serious questions. The response that you feel hurt and that it's high school only serves to try and minimize the people asking the hard questions. Answer the direct questions instead of commenting about your hurt feelings. It's a business.

They can't answer these questions directly because the facts speak for themselves.
I'm sure all are familiar with the old Duck analogy.
The auction houses are confident in themselves because there seems to be the impression that it is better to deal with an auction house than a dealer. Personally, I have more confidence dealing with a Jim S and Rich S than I do with any auction house.
Insider trading is illegal, I fail to see how in the scheme of things shill/"house" bidding is really any diferent? As long as one party has an unfair advantage over the other party one can only question the ethics of the deal. In my line of work if there is ANY question as to the structure of a deal run; do not walk; do not collect the $200, it will only cost you 10 times that down the road.

It never ceases to amaze me how greed gets in the way of good business sense...

Heritage...ask your self this question...

Does coming out and stating you will no longer "house" bid your auctions and be completely transparent help your business in the long run? Would more people consign with you? Would you lose customers?

Seriously? I would be far more likely to bid in your auctions if this was the case and I am sure consignors would be far more comfortable as well. I just do not see a downside in the long run. You are running the risk of causing more problems for yourself.

BTW, I would love to see you pursue a libel suit against anyone on this board. As someone said, opinion would be hard to prove damages on. Ask REA how their suit is going. The other thing to consider is that the second you file that suit, I am sure that the opposite lawyer will be asking you to open all your files and all your books including bid histories, payments, etc. How comfortable are you with that?

I do not believe for a moment that Heritage will sue over the jokes and opinions of chat board posters, regardless of the threats their flack makes [bad public relations move, dude--when trying to plead your case to the public, generally not a good idea to insult or threaten them]. It isn't so much the virtually impossible task of proving actual damages [you can still win a defamation per se case without actual damages], it is that Heritage would have to overcome the opinion and parody defenses, which I believe are dispositive in this case and would likely result in a summary disposition of the case. Not only that, the moment Heritage alleges lost profits or business damage the ensuing discovery into the company's finances and business conduct would force Heritage to open its books and records, something I do not think the owners of any private enterprise want to do.

I also don't see any intelligent attorney telling Heritage to file a defamation case because the blowback would undermine their auction structure. Iin my opinion their auction rules are designed not for transparency but for plausible deniability: as long as bidders don't know which lots Heritage house bid, they can tell themselves that their lots weren't house bid. Discovery in litigation could create real transparency by potentially forcing Heritage to state exactly which lots it bid on and when. Even if I suspected a house bid had been used to run up the price of a lot, I know that if I actually discovered that I might have won a lot for hundreds or even thousands less than I paid but for Heritage's bid, I'd be very pissed. Certainly, I'd never do business with them again.

Well said as usual, Adam.

That's what get's me the most, the "We Hide Nothing." statement.

Everything is hidden. Tell us WHEN you bid on WHAT items. Then tell us WHICH items you have won or are bidding on. That simple.

HIDE NOTHING!

Update........
Still no contact from Heritage about the "lost" Scranton jersey ever showing up that I won in one of their prior auctions
Was told now it was pulled from the auction after the sale (REAL PROFESSIONAL) and doesn't even appear on prior auction results if you search their site....VERY VERY suspicious.
I will tell every single person I ever meet in this hobby how HORRIBLE Heritage is to deal with

J. Drasher
jbd99@verizon.net

+1

well, heritage came on here and said they are awesome, so who can argue with that? ;)

I think I missed something, and I would rather run into a pointed stick than re-read all these posts...

Did Heritage say that they also pay the buyer's premium if they win, ala the other auction house that we previously beat into submission? If not, then they truly are killing one of their primary customers: the dealers who HAVE to get lots near wholesale; i.e-Heritage' price would actually be one bid lower than what wholesale is for everyone else.

You mean do they pay themselves the buyer's premium? I just took $5 out of my left pocket and put into into my right one.

If it's a separate business, it makes a difference. If not, then of course it doesn't.

They are done talking to us it seems. We don't really matter. We're just their customer base. Sports collectibles make up a tiny percentage of their yearly sales and they appear content to just let silence be the answer to legitimate concerns by their customers.

I've yet to see anyone post that they are OK with current practices at Heritage.

Edited to add: This thread has had 4,089 views in 5 days.

If the auction house is buying lots from their own auctions, they are getting a 20% discount compared to the rest of the bidders. Now my analogy of taking $5 from one pocket and putting it into the other is a bit oversimplified because they theoretically pay a tax on that 20% bp, but I'm sure the amount they end up paying depends on how they keep their books. Either way, they are receiving a substantial discount the rest of their bidders are not getting. This is another ethical issue to consider.

The last time we had this discussion (regarding a different large auction house), they explained that, as two separate companies, they paid the buyers premium if their 'sister' company bid on auctions. If that's the case with Heritage, then they aren't getting a 20% discount. But I don't know - waiting for someone to chime in.

In instances in which an auction house actually wins an item, as opposed to just bidding, the auction house loses the buyers premium from what would have been a non-auction house high bidder, so saying an auction house gets the piece at a good size discount to non-auction house bidders by not paying a buyers premium (or by paying buyers premium to another company business) is not really accurate. There is a smidgen of a discount - the amount of buyers premium the auction house would have paid (if they were not the auction house) at the price they won the item, less the amount of buyers premium the losing non-auction house bidder would have paid if the auction house had not bid and won. Therefore, I do not think this is much of a factor.

If a person thinks that all these things are going on and thinks that they are all wrong but continues to bid/patronize an AH, the net effect is that you are saying it is OK.

I agree with you, Jeff. I'm not going to bid until such time as I get assurance that Heritage has stopped bidding on their own items or at least tells us which items they are bidding on so I can avoid them.

My guess is they won't change until they think this is negatively impacting their bottom line. Nobody has posted over here saying they appreciate what Heritage is doing and wish more auction houses would do the same.

The fact that they seem unwilling to change their policy leads me to believe they are making a lot of extra money doing what they are doing and that they can weather the negative publicity here. They won't even change the written policy so that it is in line with their own claims about their actual practices made above. Bidders should think long and hard about this.

It is just my opinion, but my evaluation of their actions is that they do not care what we, their customers think, at least not in any substantive way. As long as it does not impact their profits, they will not change.
JimB

i'd like to thank heritage for sponsoring the nat'l dinner. keep up the good work guys.

Drink a few beers then ask Heritage these questions at the dinner. If I had a problem with a person or company sponsoring an event, I certainly would not attend. A bit hypocritical in my book, but all of the "holier than thou's" will attend regardless.

Rawn

This is a Net54baseball dinner and HA is helping sponsor it. If anyone doesn't want to come to it just let me know. No worries at all.

You will have no opt outs, many talk, but don't back it up. I put myself through school playing pool, poker, and other bar stuff, learned to look through the
BS. Let's see who bids on the next HA auction, but has posted negative comments on this thread.

Rawn