OT: Who would you put on your sports Mt. Rushmore. This is harder than it sounds...
 

I searched to see if this idea had been done on Net 54 before, figuring that everything sports (or, more specifically, baseball) related has been discussed at one time or another. While the Mt. Rushmore of baseball, and baseball cards, immediately popped up, imagine my surprise when I did not find this particular idea expanded to all sports.

So, here's my question to you fine folks of Net 54: who would you put on your personal Mt. Rushmore to represent the very best of sports? This does not necessarily mean the greatest player in any particular sport, but men (or women) that achieved excellence in their sport, either as a player, or a coach (or, maybe both). Maybe these men and women never stepped on a field, but changed their sport (and their country) for the better with their vision. There are many ways we can take this. If baseball is in your blood, to the exclusion of all sports, you can choose four legends associated with the diamond. But, if you're like me, even though baseball will always be my first love, I am an enthusiastic fan of several sports. Including all sports in the selection process makes it infinitely more difficult, in my opinion, to choose only four. You can include professionals, as well as those that achieved their fame in the college ranks. Maybe a broadcaster, or a sports journalist might make your list. Do you make this a list of excellence from a performance standpoint, or do you choose men and women who led by example. Many great men and women have roamed the sidelines, their names synonymous with the word class. There have also been athletes who have made great sacrifices.

This should be a very interesting discussion. When you select the four people you would honor, tell me why you choose them above the others you might have considered. Just have fun, and remember, there is no right or wrong answer.

Eddie Lee Whitson, Kei Igawa, Carl Pavano, Hideki Irabu

They got PAID!!!!

ruth, gretzky, Jordan, Payton Manning

The first 3 were easy, the best ever in their sports, no one will ever be better.

As for football, that was hard. not easy to pick the best from so many diff positions. Manning / Montana / Elway / marino / rice / taylor / munoz / there are so many diff players in so many diff eras, but I think when its all said and done mannings numbers will be the ones that look the most mount rushmoric.

Babe Ruth
Michael Jordan
Johnny Unitas
Muhammad Ali

The first two are pretty obvious. Johnny U and the 58 nfl championship game was the transcendent event in football's rise to the #1 sport. Ali is the one athlete who transcends beyond sport itself.

Ruth, Ali, Jordan, Jesse Owens.

Ruth, Jordan, Brady, Gretzky

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Babe Ruth, Wilt Chamberlain, Jim Thorpe, & Vince Lombardi. The football choice is the toughest one, so I went with the greatest coach in the game. There were so many great players. Jim Thorpe was I feel overall the greatest athlete. Ruth & Chamberlain changed the game in their sports. Honorable mention to Bobby Orr, Ali, & Jordan. They are great players that changed their sport as well.

Did you ever hear of a guy named Brady?:D

Ted Williams, Earvin Johnson, Muhammad Ali, Emmitt Smith

I picked those 4 because Ted is the best player to ever play baseball and the other 3 are all-time greats and my favorite players in their sport that I watched growing up.

Ruth, Ali, Pele, Jordan.

Great topic Bill!

My four are, in no particular order: Jackie Robinson, Oscar Robertson, Jim Thorpe, and Gordie Howe.

Each player stands on their own merit, and has their place in history in their respective sport.

Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in MLB.

Oscar Robertson is the only player in the NBA to average a triple double for a season, and has a trophy named after him given to the top college player by the US Basketball Writers Association.

Jim Thorpe has been recognized as the greatest athlete of the 20th Century. He won 2 gold medals in the olympics ( pentathlon and decathlon ) and played professional football, baseball, and basketball.

Gordie Howe is the " Babe Ruth " of hockey.

Babe Ruth- mythical
Usain Bolt- 9.58 and 19.19 in the 100M/200M may never be broken...we may look back and realize that he pushed the human body to its absolute limits. All this and he never really competed in his "best" event, the 400M.
Tiger Woods- I know about Jack and his 18 majors, but this guy made golf what it is today. The sheer number of guys that are threats every single week on the tour is a direct result of Tiger's influence on the game. His dominance and ability to just embarrass fields is unreal.
Michael Jordan- I'm a Lebron guy. I think Lebron is a better "player". He understands the game better, plays more positions, defends more guys, and went many years without the cast that Michael had. That being said, Jordan is a juggernaut. The legacy that he will leave on athletic footwear alone may be enough to put him on this mountain.

Cobb - Jordan - Howe - Marciano

Ruth, Pele, Jordan, & Ali (all have or had global appeal)

...a very close sixth thru eighth: Jackie Robinson, Jim Brown, & Wayne Gretzky
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Ruth, Thorpe, Jordan, Pele

Tom Brady, Ted Williams, Herb Brooks, and Jack Nicklaus.

Jackson, Jones, Brown, Johnson

WHAT!!! No mention of Mickey Mantle. only need 1 word here: ICON!!!!!

I'm guessing there are a lot of people who would leave Mantle off of their baseball Mt. Rushmore, so sports Mt. Rushmore is a hard sell.

Bryce Harper :D

If we're talking about an American monument:

Babe Ruth
Jackie Robinson
Jim Brown
Joe Louis

Mays , Sugar Ray Robinson , Jordan , Gretzky, Lawrence Taylor

Ruth, Ali, Messi, Gretzky

Ruth, Ali, Thorpe....Jenner

I think I would go with these four. Obviously my thinking is different from that of everybody else.

John Wooden
Jackie Robinson
Vince Lombardi
Billie Jean King

These were tough decisions for me. Very tough. I couldn't just go with Ruth, Gretzky, Jordan and Walter Payton, or choices of a similar nature. I wanted winners, but I wanted winners that were worthy of immortalizing for more than their accomplishments within the game. These four are immortal not only because of their titles, but for the impact they made on the lives of those around them.

I agree with clydepepper, I think this has to be Ruth, Jordan, Pele, and Ali. All four of those guys have a strong case as the best ever, not to mention that they also transcend their sports and are international cultural icons.

Too hard to choose from the all time greats, but how about this mountain:

Belichick
Brady
Popovich
Duncan

Four guys who quietly go about their business with the motto "Do you job".

...and now let the cheating references begin...:D

If you're looking purely at statistics for football, nobody has ever dominated the game like Don Hutson. He played 11 years, led the league in catches eight times, in yards receiving seven times, in touchdown catches nine times. He led the league in all three categories at once five times. The record of 99 receiving touchdowns he scored stood for 44 years until Steve Largent broke it in 1989. Hutson scored 99 times in 116 games. It took Largent 198 games to score 100. Don Hutson was the Babe Ruth of the NFL. Besides catching 488 passes for 7,991 yards and 99 TD, Hutson ran for 284 yards and 3 TD, kicked 172 extra points, 7 field goals, and intercepted 30 passes for 389 yards and a TD. He was first team All Pro each of his last eight seasons!

Cold Hard Football Facts nicely summarizes why Hutson, not Rice, is the best receiver to ever play the game.

I would argue Jim Brown was much more dominant than just about anyone at any single sport with the exception of perhaps Babe Ruth.

Babe Didrikson Zaharias - Best All-Around Woman's Athlete at a time when woman were not expected to be athletic or outside the kitchen

Jim Thorpe - Best All-Around Men's Athlete and while dealing with racism against Native Americans

Ronda Rousey - 59 Years after the death of Babe Didrikson female athletics still don't get the respect the male counterparts do (read the previous posts, how many females do you see). This isn't true in MMA/UFC in my mind. There is only one name I know as a non-follower of the sport and that is Ronda Rousey. With even her picture being the dominant center image for the Topps boxes between two males and her cards showing at the top of the highest price paid for 2015 UFC topps search on ebay. She stands out in what typically would be considered a male dominant sport.

Babe Ruth - He is the first real ICON of American Sports. hobbyists and historians can argue about if other Athletes were better, we can even argue if there were other players that effected pop culture prior to Ruth. Yet you ask any person that doesn't follow sports who the most famous athlete is of all time and Babe Ruth still comes to mind.

I'm limiting my picks to team sports, and American sports, so no Pele:

Babe Ruth, Wayne Gretzky, Michael Jordan (easy choices), and Jerry Rice.

Bonds... A Roid... Lance Armstrong... Rosie Ruiz....on the backside of Rushmore...

Ruth, Jordan, Brady,Gretzky .

Tiger from 2000-2008?

However, Dick Schaap once called Brown the greatest Lacrosse player ever too.

Great topic
 

Haven't finalized my list yet, but my initial reaction was to have Scotty Bowman on it. I'm thinking Ali wold be a shoo in for my list as well.

Theagenes of Thasos

8 titles in 9 years, and I believe he still is the all time leader in yards per carry.

if you need to put a woman up there, Serena seems the obvious choice.

The Fathers of Football, Baseball and Basketball

Walter Camp, Andrew Cartwright, James Naismith

Stan Musial, Wayne Gretzky, Jim Brown & Bill Russell.

Rusty Kuntz, Pete LaCock, Dick Cox and Bock Hooker...:cool:

Oh wait, wrong thread...:eek:

Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, Jim Thorpe, Wayne Gretzky.

Jim Thorpe may have been the greatest athlete from 1900-Present, and the other three are usually mentioned in discussions regarding the greatest player of all-time within their respective sports.

Very surprised that nobody has brought up this name, and he's not even done yet:

Michael Phelps.

There are swimmers right now who are training 6-8 hours a day in just one event. Whether it is the IM, or butterfly, or freestyle, or a particular distance of any of those, they are training in just ONE event, hours a day, years at a time.

In the 2008 Olympics, Phelps won GOLD medals in EIGHT events, either setting the World Record (7 events) or Olympic Record (1 event) in all eight. That's akin to Usain Bolt winning the gold in the 100, 200, 400, 100 relay, 400 relay, 110 hurdles and 400 hurdles, and one other event just for good measure.

There is simply no comparison in the history of sport. He is the all-time leader in medals won, 22, with the closest competitor 4 behind, and the closest American 10 (!) behind. He also has the most gold medals of all time, 18, with the closest competitor at 10.

What Phelps has done is simply unreal, and he is going to add to his total, hopefully, next year in his swan song Olympics.

Phelps has to be on there.

My Rushmore:

Michael Phelps, Barry Sanders, Michael Jordan, and Nolan Ryan.

Phelps doubtless is the best swimmer ever, but I don't think a sport where the participants' faces are mostly in the water and are otherwise obscured by goggles is ever going to really capture the public the way other sports do. I would put Carl Lewis on the same tier in terms of Olympians by the way.

And NOLAN RYAN? You mean the guy Bill James ranks the 24th best pitcher ever?

I don't think Phelps will ever be an American icon. He has too much baggage and makes dopey decisions between the 4 years of the Olympics. People just aren't going to think of him when they think of sports. I don't think Gretzky really makes the cut either. Hockey and soccer aren't going to enter a lot of people's minds in America.

Of course if this is just a "sports" monument, then yes Gretzky all the way.

MIne
 

Ruth, Brown, Gretzky, Jordan for female I tink Diedrikson Didrickson whichever way it was correctly spelled is the no brainer.

The Hansen Brothers
 

A monument to a time gone by.......

Oh, sorry, this is a baseball site....naw, will stick with these guys

Babe Ruth
Wayne Gretzky
Bo Jackson
Jim Thorpe

Roberto Clemente, Mario Lemieux, Bill Russell, and Bo Jackson.

Ruth, Jordan, Gretzky, Brady

Although my personal Mt. Rushmore would be different:
WaJo, Ripken, Woods, Ovechkin

Jackie Robinson, Ray Dandridge, Ty Cobb , Pete Rose ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS

One thing I will say about baseball icons, since this is a baseball forum is how could anyone not think Babe Ruth is the greatest baseball player of all time?

I mean it's not even close. Ruth absolutely dominated every aspect of baseball. The man had over 700 home runs with a .342 lifetime batting average. The only person who even comes close to that type of power and average is Ted Williams.

But then, you have to consider that Ruth also won almost 100 games as a pitcher, with a 67% winning percentage and 2.28 ERA. In 1916 he went 23-12 and lead the league with a 1.75 ERA and 9 shutouts. He also beat Walter Johnson in 4 of their 5 duels that year.

Babe Ruth could have had a lifetime batting average of .215 and 37 home runs and easily been an HOF pitcher with 300+ wins.

I don't think this can be overstated. Babe Ruth absolutely dominated the entire game of baseball.

That's why I laugh to myself when people try and say Willie Mays or Hank Aaron, etc., etc., are the greatest players in baseball history. Yeah right. When Willie Mays raises his lifetime batting average 50 points and finds 100 wins as a pitcher, then we can discuss him even entering the same room with Ruth.

Ok, feel free to discuss. :D

Babe Ruth, Jim Brown, Wilt Chamberlain, Jim Thorpe

Babe Ruth and Michael Jordan are easily the greatest sports icons of all time (in USA at least).

Then I like the idea of Serena being up there as well considering she's been the most dominant women's tennis player ever!

I would definitely include Brady, but all this cheating nonsense is just too much to put him up in my mind even though I think he's incredible!

Cultural significance and what they did for society should play a factor too buuuttttt...

I'm gonna have to say:

** , ** , Ali and then I'm going with Pele because why not


*If Lebron wins a title in Cleveland, in ten years he is a contender for mine!

How about Greg Brock, Todd Van Poppel, Ben McDonald, and Brien Taylor?

Get it? We're carving busts of athletes into a mountain. Busts! [emoji1]

Surprised to see Ickey Woods mentioned :D

On second thought, the Ickey Shuffle was pretty iconic.

Then you missed Mark Lewis. I still have a stack of his cards.:(

@polar bear
 

Ruth did not face any good pitchers he face the same guys over and over . The only pitcher he faced was lefty grove . The pitchers he face were worn down over worked and were not the best of the best . Because it was only whites in baseball .

Mays faced the best pitchers of all time Koufax , Gibson , Spahn , drysdale Etc
He played in the polo grounds . , seal stadium , candlestick the biggest and windiest park in the majors you can't say Ruth would have any better success . He faced racism . He have prime years to the Koreanwar efforts . Ruth could not field even a quarter the mays could . Run or steal bases I don't think there is any argument there that mays was the man . Bottom line mays was the best there was . Or at very least nothing to laugh at .

These are great points. As freakish as the Babe's numbers were and as genuine as his talent was, I have to imagine Mays would have dominated that same era even more.

It's pointless to compare player eras. The best argument you have with that is Mays would have been as good a hitter as Ruth in the 1920's or Ruth would have lost 50 batting average points and 100 home runs playing in the 50's. Doubtful on both counts. (and by the way, you conveniently left out the fact that Ruth faced Johnson, the BEST pitcher in MLB history).

Was Mays faster than Ruth? I'm sure he was. How much did that really matter though. Not much. Mays had 338 stolen bases, 120th place on the career list, right ahead of Joe Tinker. Mays wasn't exactly a superstar threat on the base paths.

However, you're forgetting my main point about Ruth. Like I said, when Mays coughs up 100 wins as an MLB pitcher, we can discuss how he's a better overall player than Ruth.

I'm not saying Mays wasn't a great player, even a top tier HOFer. I'm just saying that Mays, or anyone else, can't come close to Ruth as the best overall player in MLB history. Ruth was good at everything, not just chasing down fly balls in the outfield.

My Mt. Rushmore...
 

Babe Ruth - was the best at what he did, hit home runs
Nolan Ryan - was the best at what he did, throw fastest and strikeouts
Satchel Paige - My wild card, who really knows the wonders of Paige
Michael Phelps - was the best at what he did - win Olympic Gold

Ruth was not good at running bases or fielding if there was a gold glove award he would not have won 1 . Walter Johnson was already 31 years old in 1919 . And it is not pointless to compare eras . He only played against whites and it wasn't even the best white players because most didn't want to play ball because there was no money to be made . I think mays in the 20s in Yankee stadium would have Put the most ridiculous numbers ever . Even if mays was not the best he sure was close as we will ever get .

I'm really not trying to argue just for the sake of arguing but you keep ignoring my main point. Does Mays have 100 pitching wins? He doesn't. Until he does, he's not even in the same room as Ruth.

You forgot The Boz

No money to be made? Babe Ruth made more than the President of the United States. Players didn't make what they do today, but stars made a lot more than the average person. Ruth's peak salary of 80k was more than most players of the 50's and 60s, so by your logic, Mays didn’t play against the best players either, because salaries were nothing like they are today.

There is some arbitrariness here as each of us has his preferred sports, and hard to calculate and consider both performance and public impact.

Ruth
Ali
Jordan
Palmer


Long second tier: Mays, J. Robinson, Jim Brown, Wilt, Kareem, Serena, Gretzky, Nicklaus (better than Palmer but Arnie's timing more impactful)

This statement struck me as biased nonsense and to confirm, I did a few google searches on average laborer wages in the 1920's and compared it to average baseball salaries.

The average laborer was lucky to make $1000 a year, and often much less than that, as low as $300 a year. Henry Ford's unheard of wage of $5 a day was only $1250 a year.

The average baseball player made 5-10x the wage of the average laborer. I have no doubt the best white baseball players were actually playing MLB baseball in the 1920's.

Being a hopeless baseball fan, all four of my representatives are baseball players:

Babe Ruth
Jackie Robinson
Roberto Clemente
Ted Williams

(Sorry Hank Aaron and Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle and Ty Cobb)

You're right Brady does belong!
 

Rosie Ruiz
Barry Bonds
Danny Almonte
Tom Brady

lol brady is a great player, on many great teams with probably the best or top 3 best coach ever. Manning put up numbers on some bad teams overall, the guy I think is the best QB ever - its too bad he didn't have a better team around him. And im a giant fan

looking at manning I saw and still see a guy who not only is a grate player but makes his whole team that much better. If im not mistaken the season he was out with injury his team that finished 10-6 previous season, went 2-10 without him then when he came back went 11-5.

A quick comparison to bradyin 2008 they went 11-5 with brady out for the season and mat cassell in at QB. That team was solid and with a great coach. Manning was the whole team more often than not

One approach is to honor great players who were also great people. If I were taking my son to Mt Sportsmore, I'd want to be able to tell stories that showcased character rather than just athletic talent. Some candidates--

Jackie Robinson - racial justice
Roberto Clemente - humanitarian
LeBron James - sending thousands of kids to college and funding GEDs for their parents
Bob Feller - First to enlist after Pearl Harbor
Muhammad Ali - Protested unjust war

I would rather my son see these guys as heroes than Jordan or Brady, guys I see who used their fame and wealth to buy toys and feed their egos.

If you don't start with Ruth/Jordan, you're just being argumentative. I think I would fill out with Thorpe and then probably Jackie Robinson. I have some reservations about Jackie as he is clearly not among the greatest athletes, but is one of the most influential people in American history...and often gets less than his due because he was an athlete.

Others I strongly considered:

Billie Jean King
Wayne Gretzky
Jim Brown
Richard Petty
Vince Lombari / Bear Bryant
Mark Spitz

Hard to agree that Jackie was not one of the greatest athletes. I assume the statement is based solely on his MLB stats. I think he was arguably at the ELITE level in football, basketball, track, baseball, and even tennis. He was probably the most gifted athlete of the 20th century. Keep in mind that he wasn't able to make his MLB debut until the age of 28 for reasons well beyond his control.

Eric, I'm ashamed of you. I thought that you, of all our forum members, would take this kind of thing seriously.

Oh, and you forgot Dick Trickle (hey, we are including all sports here!) :p

Thorpe and the aforementioned Babe Didrikson are both interesting choices. It's just so hard to pick only four. I wanted to include persons that aspired to excellence, while simultaneously elevating sports to a higher level. Jesse Owens was another I thought of.

Keep it up, guys. Some good choices I hadn't thought of.

BTW, I want to go on record as saying that I won't object to Miss Rousey's inclusion in this discussion. I would be afraid to. I'm banged up enough as it is. I've seen what she will do to the human arm, and I like the use of both of mine. :eek:

Polar bear I did not ignore the pitching I just countered it with the fact he could not field or run bases . Making less of player in right field . The stats of what people made does not show what people really did . And that was go to work for there family because baseball was not considered a job . Or there was a family business that had to go in to . Most people did not allow there son to grow up and play baseball ( Lou Gehrig ) ( joe DiMaggio) were all told not to play imagine is the listened . And imagine how many did or didn't have a chos. After war world one there was a way lower population in America . There was not this a big pool of people to choose from . It came down to men that took it upon them self to play just a example let says you have to fill you teams out of a pool of guys that were just the guys that decided that had nothing better to do . Or in the 50s with a booming population of white , black , Spanish to choose from . And I'm sure little league teams were a lot better at bringing up kid to play ball . Mays would have most beat the HR if it wasn't for the Korean War . Then if you put him in Yankee stadium who know what he could have done . Yankee stadium was made for Ruth to hit home runs out of . And polar bear it's not arugeing it's a debate . And most players had to get a job in the off season lol wasn't the 1919 black sox incident caused the low pay ?

I'm not saying that Manning wasn't a great quarterback. Far from it. I would be hard pressed to come up with a top 5 list of all-time quarterbacks, and not have him in it. But one thing needs to be kept in mind about Manning. He played at least half of his games indoors, every year. From 1998-2001, he played at least 8 games at the RCA Dome. From 2002-2010, he played at least 9 of his 16 games every year indoors (with an away game at Houston every season). That was a huge advantage as far as passing statistics are concerned. No wind. No precipitation whatsoever. No cold hands to drop passes. He played a majority of his games in a climate controlled dome. Now, these numbers aren't exactly indicative of his home/road splits while in Indianapolis (because he's now played a few seasons at Denver), but his career QB rating at home is 100.6, and it's 93.4 on the road. Still excellent in both places, and his 96.9 QB rating is the third highest of all-time. But he clearly benefited from playing in perfect conditions. Compare his numbers to those of Aaron Rodgers. Yes, the rules have changed even more in favor of offense in recent years-that's why it's hard, in my humble opinion, to compare great passers from different eras. But if you look at what Rodgers has done in Green Bay, it's mind boggling. He has a 106.3 career QB rating, and he will usually play 3 games each year indoors (Detroit, Minnesota, and at least one non-divisional opponent like Atlanta, or St. Louis). But his career QB rating--away from Lambeau, which is supposed to be this huge advantage, is 100.2. He has thrown 108 TD passes and only 35 INTs. If you took away all of his home game statistics, and took only his numbers from the road, he'd still be the highest rated QB in NFL history.

Why am I gushing about Rodgers? I'm trying to reinforce how hard it is to extrapolate a few numbers, and pick "the best" in any sport, especially football where there are only 16 games a season. Do I think Rodgers is the best passer in NFL history? It's hard to say, though he belongs in the conversation, as is a first ballot Hall of Famer if he retired today. But do I look at the career passer rating list, and say that Dan Marino is the 19th best quarterback to ever play the game? Is Joe Montana 10th best? Bart Starr is tied for 56th, and Johnny Unitas 77th best.

While Manning has put up some huge numbers, I think the guys I just named, had they played in today's NFL, would have put up the same eye popping numbers, if not better.

Ty Cobb, Ali, Gordie Howe and Jim Brown

OT: Who would you put on your sports Mt. Rushmore. This is harder than it sou...
 

Coach!? I don't think you've heard of Brady... [emoji6]


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Wait, I missed this before. Manning was the whole team more often than not??

Between 1999 and 2005, Manning had one of the dominant running backs in the NFL in the back in Edgerrin James. James ran for 1,553 yards in 1999, 1,709 yards in 2000 (leading the NFL both seasons), 1,259 yards in 2003, 1,548 yards in 2004, and 1,506 yards in 2005. He ran for 9,226 yards and 64 touchdowns in seven seasons, and would have easily cracked 10k yards if he had not missed 12 games in 2001 and 2002. He's probably a Hall of Famer, with 12,246 yards rushing, 80 TDs, 3,364 yards receiving and 11 TD.

Then there were his receivers. He had Marvin Harrison, a future Hall of Famer, for nearly his entire time in Indy. Between 1998 and 2008, Harrison caught 965 passes for 12,878 yards and 114 TD catches. Harrison made the Pro Bowl eight times, and was first team NFL All-Pro three times. And, starting in 2001, he also had Reggie Wayne. From 2004-2010, Wayne was a superstar for Manning, too. From 2001-2010, Wayne caught 787 passes for 10,748 yards and 69 TD. The duo combined for 2,172 receptions, 28,925 yards and 208 TD catches. Between them, they made 14 Pro Bowls, and were 4 times NFL All-Pro. Three Hall of Famers Manning had on offense with him for the vast majority of his career.

How many Hall of Famers were on offense for Brett Favre? Any? Sterling Sharpe would have been, but he was forced to retire in 1994, Favre's third season. He had some really good players-Robert Brooks had a huge season, and a second 1,000 yard season after blowing out his knee. Antonio Freeman made a Pro Bowl, and had a few 1,000 yard seasons. He had Donald Driver for the second half of his career. None of those guys are going to Canton. What about running backs? The best he had was Ahman Green, who became a star in Favre's ninth season. Before that, he had Edgar Bennett and a couple of good seasons from Dorsey Levens (one Pro Bowl appearance). None of these guys are all timers. Yet Favre won three MVP Awards, won a Super Bowl for the Packers, and broke most every passing record. Did Manning do more to make his team better than Favre? Food for thought.

Nine one and dones. There is really nothing to discuss.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2013...ne-dones-fault