PSA Response from President Steve Sloan
 

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sounds like psa/brent have the same lawyer?

That's the best they can do?

That's reassuring. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Well Mr Sloan, you know who your first test case is...It's Brent Mastro, Your boy Blue!!!!!...Be very careful or you'll get a nickname too.

"Well versed at combating fraud"... Har har Hardeeee har har my side is splittin. Your well versed in saying nothing. Ban Brent Mastro and sue him you chicken S***. That will be a start. But you're in bed together you'll give him a character reference probably to assist Brent Mastro the Grifter with his next scam. I'm sure PSA had nothing to do with it my a**.

Well-versed in combating fraud. Clearly.

We will act against anyone who violates PSA’s Terms & Conditions by knowingly submitting altered cards for authentication and grading.

Is he referring to PWWC?

So much for the good things I had heard about Mr. Sloan. Robo speak like his predecessor.

Gary I assume, who they apparently have allowed to submit for decades lol.

Hypothetical. So, if I pick up a Goudey Ruth which has been trimmed or recolored, and I submit it to receive an Authentic, am I violating TOS by knowingly submitting al altered card for authentication? And what are the repercussions? I’m not trying to cheat anyone. I know the card is altered. I want them to slab it and say that it’s real and altered so people will know what they are getting. Problem?

More likely the same PR firm specializing in feel good BS robo speak that ignores the elephants in the room.

Aren't they one in the same?

Not clear to me if Brent was submitting for him. It's irrelevant, but I can't make that assumption at this point.

Does anyone in this hobby have any integrity? I mean among the major players. Or are they all corrupted by money?

huh?
 

"As with any financial transaction, if you are unsatisfied with your purchase, contact the seller to initiate a refund request. If the seller is unknown, you may send the card to PSA for review under our Financial Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity."


Seems like they are trying to pass the buck to the seller, as if the seller in all instances should provide the financial guarantee if the seller is known. So if the seller does not initiate the process for financial reimbursement, what happens then?

This doesn't seem consistent with what they say on their website: https://www.psacard.com/about/financialguarantee

"PSA guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

If PSA, in fact, concludes that the card in question no longer merits the PSA grade assigned or fails PSA’s authenticity standards, PSA will either:

Buy the card from the submitter at the current market value if the card can no longer receive a numerical grade under PSA's standards or,

Refund the difference in value between the original PSA grade and the current PSA grade if the grade is lowered. In this case, the card will also be returned to the customer along with the refund for the difference in value.

The current market value is determined by PSA, based in part on Sports Market Report and SMR Online values and/or recent prices realized from the marketplace. PSA will be the sole determiner of the current market value."

I thought there was proof that Moser & PWWC submissions to PSA were on the same numbers.

As if I am going to go to someone I bought a card from 10 years ago and ask to return it. WTF.

I don't believe so, I don't think anyone can tell who submitted the cards.

It's funny; I think I gave him that idea when I recommended in email that he have all PWCC customers send them back to PWCC for refunds.

My reasoning was that if the purchase never happened, and PWCC was in on the fraud, PSA would have minimal or zero liability.

Can’t PSA tell who submitted the cards. I would think they should be able to, but don’t hold your breath. What’s good for the Registry is good for the hobby.

.

Of course they know. They are as usual putting the burden back on the collector. WIWAG redux.

Didn't read all the comments posted, but I was wondering the same thing. .

I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt and we all deserve second chances in life but I'm sorry that response is a little weak. How about taking responsibility for your part and telling us what you're going to do to fix things.

This is where they lose trust. Things have been kept in private for way too long.

Jesus the day I agree 100 percent with David, something must be wrong.

.

As with any financial transaction, if you are unsatisfied with your purchase, contact the seller to initiate a refund request.

PSA’s financial guarantee doesn’t protect the original submitter. If PWCC really is submitting most of these cards, it may put them in a pickle (and reduce the potential warranty exposure).

First smart thing I’ve seen anyone do in this whole debacle.

Well, it is lightning here in Houston. I better stay indoors. :D

Exactly. PWCC is the seller and PSA is pissed at them. PSA also scrubbed their site of PWCC. Clearly PWCC played a big part in this. Time will tell, hopefully.

Edit to add PSA removed SMR article on PWCC, didn't scrub them entirely.

It's surreal. A massive scandal showing potentially thousands of altered PSA cards is revealed, and the response is to reassure us PSA is well-versed at detecting fraud, I mean WTF is going on here? Who do they think they're talking to?

Without a list of cards coming from them it's useless drivel. They never provided one in WIWAG.

I think you hit the nail on the head John in terms of them pointing back to the seller for refunds. They probably feel they could make a good case that PWCC was in on it somehow.

The way I see it is that PSA in on the hook for almost one million dollars worth of liability with their guaranty.

Didn't you hear? The list is coming in the "near future"!

The right thing would be for PSA to get those cards in their possession, but it would cost a small fortune.

Brent is on video promising to reimburse buyers for fraudulent cards submitted through PWCC. Watch the 1 hour long video. He doesn't say which cards those are, so all of them should go back to PWCC. Maybe his lawyer will come out with a list of affected cards submitted by PWCC so that he won't get every single one back to his company.

He admitted submitting cards for Gary?

I watched the hour long video & thought it was all B.S. He tried to stick up for PSA about not being able to see alterations. I think it's called CYA.

He says he submitted cards for consignors, nonspecifically.

The smart thing to do by PSA is to put the blame on one rogue grader...even if he's not guilty. Offer him a nice severance package or something. When all this is over, PSA has to admit one of two things: (1) they had a grader on the take and they took care of the situation or (2) they're totally incompetent. Which is better from a business perspective?

Might work for the public. Won't work for the Feds.

Sounds like he's pointing the finger away from PSA...talking only about the "actors" who submit. What about the "actors" who graded them? How does that get explained?

Under oath. They’re getting sued.

True

From Sloan's note : "PSA processes more than two million cards each year"

40,000 per week (based on a 50 week year)
8,000 per day (based on a 5 day week)
666 per hour (based on a 12 hour day, and my love of Satan)
11 per minute

That means 5.4 seconds multiplied by the number of graders there are, per card.

Doug "just saying" Goodman

That might be his downfall.

Really? Love to see it.

Back in the day, I was privileged to enter the "Vault" at GAI. I was there to educate the authenticator of cigarette packs per Steve Rochi's request. I was shown the process of grading cards. The first thing they always did was measure the card. Doesn't make any sense to do anything else after that if the card was trimmed because the card would be graded authentic. They then looked for altering. Same thing, doesn't make any sense to do anything else after that if the card was altered because the card would be graded authentic.. Then they look at the centering, corners. etc. And further evaluated the card for printer defects, creases, etc.

So how is it that PSA could skip the first part of the process for all those trimmed cards unless it was deliberate? I know that GAI was doing the same, and that their opinion on cards today are worthless. But still they had a procedure.

Is PWCC considered the seller or the auctioneer?

This is the first thing that hit me as well...

Everyone who's been wondering whether it is

A. Incompetence

or

B. Favorable Grading to preferred customers

Got nothing answered. Zero explanation for the hundreds of glaring mistakes they've recently made (likely thousands before this is put to bed). Why would we continue to put our faith in this company, with a pathetic canned "pass the buck" response like that? Written by some faceless attorney who doesn't give a crap about what's right, or the state of the hobby. Screw them.

That's for them to pass the buck down to the consignor. Except I bet those PayPal accounts are bone dry.

I would have liked to be the fly on the wall in that conversation between Mr Sloan and Mr Huigens.

This pretty much sums it up. PSA stands by their process. Go through the red tape for any concerns. customerservice@collectors.com business as usual.

I started sending links of the recent scandal(s) to the major holders of CLCT stock today. It really bothers me that people are making a profit based on high grading fees (and will not stand behind the product). Everyone should contact the principals of these organizations and let them know what they are holding.

Top Institutional Holders
Holder Shares Date Reported % Out Value
Renaissance Technologies, LLC 726,863 Mar 30, 2019 7.95% 12,734,639
Dimensional Fund Advisors LP 333,701 Mar 30, 2019 3.65% 5,846,441
North Star Investment Management Corp 302,325 Mar 30, 2019 3.30% 5,296,734
Vanguard Group, Inc. (The) 293,803 Mar 30, 2019 3.21% 5,147,428
Sterling Capital Management LLC 202,090 Mar 30, 2019 2.21% 3,540,616
Dalton, Greiner, Hartman, Maher & Company 194,472 Mar 30, 2019 2.13% 3,407,149
Royce & Associates LP 180,575 Mar 30, 2019 1.97% 3,163,674
Pembroke Management, LTD 138,337 Mar 30, 2019 1.51% 2,423,664
FMR, LLC 132,366 Mar 30, 2019 1.45% 2,319,052
Wells Fargo & Company 130,498 Mar 30, 2019 1.43% 2,286,324

Maybe they'll rent PWCC's booths at the National to set up a refund line.

Do Dave Forman and SGC have it in them to step up their game and win some business away from PSA at this point?

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...ong%20jack.gif

Mr. Chow's hand is getting worn out by all these half-assed statements.

LOL, I find it funny that the largest holder is a quant fund. That's what you get for straying from fundamental investing.

That is just the best post I ever saw on this board. LOL (and crying)...

the most unbelievable line
 

"[PSA] will not let isolated acts from a few dishonest actors deter consumer confidence in our brand."

Ummm...aren't you the ones people are largely relying on and paying to deter the dishonest actors? Do that and maybe people will have confidence in the brand. Can't make this stuff up.

Both PWCC and PSA are going to be at the Long Beach Coin Expo Thursday-Saturday. I'm sure that I'll give thanks to PWCC.

PSA's live Facebook video day is tomorrow: early with Vintage Breaks, followed soon after by Rico Petrocelli's show. We'll see if they show up to those before claiming they'll be at a small show right now.

Sloan is living in fantasyland. Yup, we should just trust him to handle this privately like we trusted him to grade our cards privately and then rely on the results the same way. A fraction of the people who have been directly impacted by this are probably even aware as to what has transpired so doing this his way will result in a very small percentage of cards getting returned for refunds. Well unfortunately for Mr. Sloan I'm pretty certain this time is going to be different and this is not going to get swept under the rug like it has in the past.

I can assure you lawyers are actively searching for plaintiffs to file lawsuits against PSA and others and they will be forced to turn over entire lists of cards submitted by the offending parties so that everyone impacted has an opportunity to be made whole. And then, whether it's found to be $1 or millions of dollars that need to be paid back, I suspect the courts or law enforcement will then determine who has liability for what and the chips will fall as they may.

And while it's mighty nice of you to pass the buck to the "few dishonest actors," perhaps it might be a better idea to look in the mirror and ask why at best your graders were completely incapable of stopping much of this? Why were you continuing to accept cards from known fraudsters? And finally why, if you "take consumer protection seriously" are you forcing people to sue you to get the lists of all cards submitted by Moser and PWCC instead of releasing it yourself? We are spending upwards of $5000 per card to rely on you to catch these folks and instead you chose to cash our checks and laugh. I'll be very surprised if you'll be laughing for long.

I'm guessing that you're way off on that one.

Do you really believe there are no doctored cards in SGC holders?

According to their website, they're not skipping it. It says so right here.

<a href="http://imgbox.com/vx40Bt6U" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/55/65/vx40Bt6U_o.png" alt="image host"/></a>

Well said. And it isn't just Moser, not even close. They know who the card doctors are. How could they not, they are at the center of the hobby and the names of these guys are widely known. And it's more than a "few."

Of course not. But at this point I believe that overall they are better at this than PSA. The stuff identified on BO is in my opinion the tip of a very large iceberg of doctored cards in PSA holders. But we'll never know for sure if this is their response. WIWAG redux. Same response to a far more serious problem. The burden is on us.

Absolutely not. But SGC is currently not in the cross-hairs.

I wonder if SGC was at the top of the grading mountain would they be in the same @#$%storm that PSA is in?

Seems like a good time to name names. Call it the Colon Blow hobby cleanse. People are reading this thread and no longer want to sit on the sidelines.

Since there's almost no profit incentive in sending cards to SGC (compared to PSA and BGS), SGC will be largely unscathed from this scandal.

They were the smartest people by shuttering the auto authentication arm, either by chance or by intention.

Chow just never gets old :D

Of course it is true. I think all TPGs are equally competent (or incompetent). In a way, PSA is a victim of their own success. If SGC cards were trading at a premium in the market I’m sure the majority of the doctored cards would have been submitted to and graded by them.

Guess all those bad t206 autos just got brushed under the carpet.

Jay maybe so, it's a hard hypothetical to test.

You're probably right, but I've always given SGC more credit for the 19th Century cards.

IMO the best customer-focused action that PSA could do at this point would be to publish all the certification numbers (or tag them via the certification verification) of cards submitted by or on behalf of known card doctors.

I believe they owe that to their customers, i.e., those who have supported their brand.

Edited to add that I emailed this request to Messrs. Orlando and Sloan

I don’t know about CYA. From what I saw on The Wire and Breaking Bad, when you may be charged with a cime or a lawsuit, you should definitely NOT talk for 60 minutes on the record.

It would be fun to watch SGC cards start to command higher prices than PSA, but that won't happen any time soon. It is possible though.