A new section of the board.....
 

Sometimes I just want to say something to my friends on Net54baseball and it doesn't even concern sports. I don't feel right posting a way off topic about something not remotely sports related, other than every great once in a while, so I say nothing (which is hard for me to do). So, that being said I think it would be a great thing to have a "Water Cooler Talk" section that is not sports related, so our members can just chat about anything. Sort of like what is going on in Jim's "I'm back" thread :), except this would be a legit place for it.

Ok, so I will make a section and that takes about 30 seconds (if there is not overwhelming opposition to the section itself, this is not a foregone conclusion). My real question is this poll. Should we allow politics and religion on there? My initial thought is yes, as that is what it is for, and it will be threads that you don't have to open or participate in if you don't want to. I could see me discussing some of my liberal republican views though I doubt I would go off into religion. So, let me know your thoughts and please vote if you would like to. This will give a good idea on whether to allow these subjects or not.

I have never really wanted this type of section diluting the main board and with our new software it won't. I will also bet that this new section, which will be formed today (probably) will get a lot of activity, though I guess I could be wrong too :). It's all about making our Net54baseball a little bit more member friendly. regards

Politics and religion, those are incendiary devices typically. What's the upside?
The discussion is the "I'm Back" thread is spontaneous and of lighter fare.

because
 

If members really want to discuss them then why shouldn't they be able to if it is a designated place? I am open to not allowing them...I just want to hear good reasons on all sides. The one thing I can't stand is not talking through things and making decisions that are ill informed. Hope that makes sense? :eek:

Agree with Jeff here. Currently we don't view other members as R or D. Allowing heated political/religious debates would only introduce an element of division. Especially in light of the adversarial tone those conversation have been increasingly taking in the US.

I am cool with this....
 

I am cool with not allowing them. Lets see how the vote goes and take it from there. I really want it to be as good of a section as it can be...and also be as open as possible. I voted "I don't care" :)

Even though religion and politics are incendiary topics, level-headed, intelligent adults should be able to discuss these topics without malice and ill-will toward others. I think that a section for free speech is a great idea.

...
 

...As previously stated, discussions about politics and religion tend to divide people, and can get really heated. I come to this board to get away from those sorts of discussions.

My vote is NO.

EDIT: In a post a few below here, Leon asked for a specific reason for my "NO" vote. The reason for my NO vote is simply because I like to come to Net54 to get away from things in the real world. I like to come here and remember what it was like to be a kid, even if it is just for a little while. So that's my reason why. Thanks for reading.

There should be a section where members can discuss politics & religion. Many other messages boards, if not all have a section for this.

I say yeah.

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I do want to be devil's advocate though
 

While I certainly agree, and know first hand, that these subjects can be divisive, I purposely mentioned that those particular threads can just be skipped over AND this will be a section for off topics. That being said if there is overwhelming opposition there won't be those topics allowed. I sort of think it would be a shame but it is what it is.....

one other thing....if you vote that there shouldn't be this section at all, and give no reason why, then your vote will hold virtually 0 weight. Call that a personal pet peeve of mine. People always have the right to disagree, but to disagree to only be disagreeable, is not something I am ever in favor of.

You've been around here a while, haven't you?

Maybe it's message boards, but communication that isn't happening face to face tempts people to espouse the very outer limits (sometimes well beyond) of their beliefs. To my mind, if people want to have political chats, they have myriads of options online. I'd much prefer to keep it out of this site.

Then again, in the end, it's your site. Don't let some one-year noobie tell you how to run it.

What the...
 

I disagree with anything other than to-the-point vinatge baseball cards "talk."


What does a post look like in this envisioned section?: Christianity rocks!...what do you guys think?

1 vote is 1 vote....
 

David- anyone that knows me personally knows that is not the way I am. Your vote counts as much as anyone's, trust me on this. This will be an interesting vote and topic, in and of itself.

no problem
 

In the appropriate place then I think "Christianity Rocks" is fine. As I have said, you are just as entitled to your opinion as each and every person on the board.

PLease no, there is enough drama without politics and religion.....

I put don't allow either. Discussing politics is too toxic these days and I'm done with it. And it wouldn't be a bad idea for others to sit quietly and do the same.

I voted no to both. I think there are enough forums out there for that kind of talk. I like the fact that this board is strictly hobby/sports related.

Hold on to that Rainbow! You don't need to be Nostradamus to foresee issues with these topics... guys cannot even agree on baseball cards!

I haven't posted...
 

....about the personal perspective stuff in awhile, since I came across like an a$$hole last time I did it, so I'll keep it brief --

The less personal stuff I know about you guys, the better. I'm not here to make friends or alienate people. I like to see vintage baseball cards, and hear stories about vintage baseball cards. I like to share my collection and collecting interests with other like-minded collectors. I'm not likely to ever agree to a Net54 meet-and-greet and I don't care if people have to use their real names on here when they say incendiary stuff. When the "post who you are and what you do" threads are being created, I don't read them or contribute to them.

As far as I'm concerned, you guys are not real people -- you're an internet phenomena that greatly enhances my collecting experience. The more personal stuff I learn about you guys, on both sides of the voting aisle, the less I want to learn. But if you've collected baseball cards since the 1930s or have gotten Ty Cobb's autograph on a T206 card through the mail, then that's what I want to hear about -- Heck, I even want to hear about the T206 beater you picked up last week. That's what I come here to see. I love reviewing the monthly pick-up threads. You guys have some amazing collections!

So I vote no water cooler. Of course, if you guys ever do the water cooler, I won't be there so it technically shouldn't bother me -- except that I believe it will serve to divide people more than bring them together, which will then have a negative spill-over effect on the card stuff. I still have a hard time reading about baseball cards from some of the people on here that have in the past expressed extreme political or religious views.

What we need today is people with fewer opinions about what is wrong with the country. Once the two sides get at it we have nothing but shouting and noise. Nothing gets accomplished today when the left and the right start debating points. The politicians and the radio loudmouths have failed abysmally, and we won't do any better here. Do what you can to be a better person, and turn off the television and the radio.

I voted no for both
 

My opinion is pretty close to many others stated. There are a plethora of avenues for these often heated discussions. I go to those sites when I want to go to those sites. This site is a totally different and generally peaceful area for me to spend some time avoiding work. I'd prefer to keep it that way. Now, if there were a way that I could avoid even being aware of this little corner of the site then I wouldn't care. However, given that there is always a most recent thread title shown from the main board I'm not sure how I would avoid it. While I might try to stay away and keep this site as my apolitical area of release, I'm not sure I could avoid the temptation to join in on a Sarah Palin flame thread and that's just not the point.

Besides, do we really need to know what each of the Bruce's opinion is on politics or religion?

on r and p
 

i feel certain that the anomosities engendered will bleed over
into this idyllic world of beautiful vintage cardboard and must vote a resounding NO to r and p.
historically, over many years, we've had the tendency to have ad hominem
discussions most anytime r and p, and a few other matters, come into play.
I say let's avoid this since times seem much more peaceful on this fine board than ever before.
imho
all the best,
barry

Sit quietly and have fewer opinions? People are not robots.

I voted yes to both by the way.

No Way
 

I have been part of forums where all of the OT stuff leaks into the rest of the threads. Although I might not want to read the other topics, I always click on new posts when signing on, so I would have to see the titles of those water cooler topics. I come here to get away from "real world" stuff. JM2¢.

Nowhere did Barry say to not have opinions.

I voted no on both, for the reason stated by several others: Spill over! Animosity and oneupmanship would surely bleed into the real board - and I don't wanna hear it!

I voted to allow both. For those that don't want it, they don't have to go into it. Why not provide an avenue for all and those that don't want to venture into that topic certainly aren't required too. Why negate the opportunity for those that would like to carry on an adult conversation about things other than cards with like minded card collecting members?

Just my .03

r/
Frank

Agreed. Disagreements on the p/r board will surely spill over.

Max

I vote no way, Jose. We'll still have our occasional train wrecks; that ought to suffice. In my six decades of life I can never recall a time when there has been such polarity in this country. The "Generation Gap" of the sixties has nothing on the right vs. left divide of today. I remember once when people of Democrat and Republican persuasions actually got along for the most part - it wasn't that big of a deal. Nowadays we have marginalized each other to the point that I sometimes wonder what it had to be like in America in the 1850's - it's scary stuff. I don't want to know that Ted Z. is really a communist sympathizer or that Jim B. is actually an Exalted Cyclops in the Imperial Klan. I just want to talk about baseball cards, and, unlike T206, I want to relate to them as normal folks just like we would have thirty years ago.

not quite
 

This is absolutely NOT the way it will be. This section will (if instituted) be where the current Watercooler Talk - Sports section is. It will not be on the front page or the memorabilia page. So, you will have to go click on the post war and watercooler section to even see it. I should have made this more clear. regards

.
 

I voted Yes to both. It's not like Leon is talking about adding a Politics/Religion section to the board. A water cooler section with less rules would be cool with me. The key is prohibiting these conversations/debates from spilling over to the main board.

Daryl- I have plenty of opinions, and others do too. I would love to see a political discussion that was both civil and constructive. But we've had them on the board in the past and they end up becoming shouting matches. That's all I meant.

I think it's great for people to express themselves, but look at the political discourse in America today. It's really horrendous what is going on, and I don't like it one bit.

That said, I was just chatting with Leon and we both agreed there is nothing wrong with starting a section to discuss politics. If it gets too nasty it can always be shut down.

My experience with religious and political discussions on forum is pretty poor. No actual discussion ever occurs and it's just people trying to force their ideas down someone elses throat.

That being said, as a long time reader and new poster, this forum has one of the classiest user bases around

I voted "Don't care" but after reading some of these votes, I'm tending to side with No for both also. Even though you can always skip the threads and not respond, there is always going to be some thread so provocative that people will feel compelled to respond to even though they don't want to get involved, and then things can get personal. For example, if there is some thread that says "Obama sucks" or "My neighbor had more qualifications to be President than Sarah Palin," one side or the other will feel that they just cannot let that train of thought go without a response. As someone else said, this forum is about cards and fun. There are plenty of other forums for those real life issues.

very important distinction
 

I want to post a new post :) about a very, very important distinction I obviously didn't make clear. This new section, if instituted will NOT be on the main board, will NOT be on the memorabilia section and of course will NOT be in the BST section. It will be its own section where the Post War Cards and Watercooler talk already are. So, if you come to the board to get away from it all, as long as you don't click on that section for Post War and Watercooler talk, you will never see a thread about it. I just want to make that abundantly clear.

Also, it looks like the voting is approximately 2-1 to not allow politics and religion but there is also an equal amount that don't care. If it is not more overwhelming than that I could see potentially (not for sure by any means) starting out allowing them and seeing how it goes. We can always make it taboo if it gets out of hand. So, we will see where this leads us. Good thoughts so far. One last thing, it will be assumed that if you don't vote NO to the section, and vote for something else, then you are ok with the section itself. Regards

And I doubt we will have any discussion about religion. I mean, what about religion would people want to talk about? Probably wouldn't get any posts.

I understand, and also don't want to see any shouting matches. :)

After putting the little green dot in "don't allow either", I moved it to allow both. We'd be better off to talk cards, and not all of the other stuff. There are places for that, and on the card board isn't the place. But to help keep it 'not the place', allowing that stuff in the water cooler gives it a place. So anyone wanting to soapbox to that stuff can do it at the water cooler, and NOT in a regular thread. Maybe it you give it a place to go, it will go there, if it must be at all...

And thanks for asking us!

Thanks Leon...However, I still think that you are inviting trolls to the party. I hope it doesn't become too divisive.

Jeff

won't be trolls
 

If I am not mistaking a troll is an anonymous person causing trouble, mainly. Since there is no anonymity allowed (there is privacy allowed) there won't be any trolls. Otherwise, I do understand what you are saying. It's interesting that the don't cares and the ones being ok with the politics and religion are exactly equal to those not wanting either. The deciding few votes could actually be the folks that say allowing politics would be ok. As Barry said, we doubt anyone will really talk about religion very much anyway...and the poll pretty much affirms that. No decision yet and even after the poll I will mull it over. So far it is very overwhelming that there is support for the section....with or without the subjects being voted on. I appreciate everyone's thoughtful responses. If anyone thinks that I already had my mind made up, that is not the case. It's not made up yet either.....I do think we have a really great board, with wonderful members, and I vow not to screw it up. :o regards

Leon,

Not correct.

As ibuysportsephemera pointed out, if upon entering (or anytime) click on "New Posts" in the menu bar at the top of the page you will get the new posts since your last visit from all sections of the forum including the Water Cooler and other areas.

my mistake
 

Hi Tim
Then my mistake. I have never clicked on that option so didn't know. thanks much....

The problem with adding general topic section is that even if you are not interested or pledge not to go read it...our curiosity gets the best of you and you end up reading and then end up getting involved...I'd rather not have access to the key that unlocks the chastity belt...:p

I voted no to both. I don't see any way that it wouldn't spill over, and think having a forum such as that would greatly damage the board as we know it.

I voted YES on politics. I don't care if you want to add religion but that's kind of a "Yawner" topic to me.

If you have it in its own place like watercooler sports then if someone doesn't want to look at it and or participate then they don't have to. Lou

You could try it for 30 days on a trial basis, monitor it, and then decide if it is worth keeping.

I think there are very good points on both sides of this issue, and I like the fact that Leon is thinking about improving this forum through innovations such as new topic areas. The auction tracker for pre-war cards was a nice recent addition, for example.

That said, I side with those who said no. It is simply human nature that issues discussed in that forum will spill over into the core focus of this website and that will likely cause problems. After all, there are plenty of forums where all of us can discuss politics, religion or anything else for that matter.

This forum focuses on vintage baseball and it is probably the best on the web. I am not convinced that this forum needs to be all things to all people or that it makes sense to deviate from what it does so well right now. I think it should continue to do what it does and do it better than any other forum.

Is the reason for proposing this that the number of members is decreasing or the amount of posts is decreasing? If those are the issues, then I understand the desire among the moderators to make the site more sticky so people use it more often and contribute more. But I'm not convinced that bringing in issues that are inherently controversial, such as politics and religion, will solve those problems. I agree with those who argue that one of the best parts of this site is that it expressly doesn't do that already. It is an oasis from that.

That said, I like the democratic approach of a poll plus posting so that everyone can weigh in.

While I disagree with those who argue that it would be fine or at least not as problematic as the rest of us fear, I think they have made clear, cogent arguments for their position.

Ok Leon, so you want to have "yard duty" everyday on the play ground? Do you really want that head ache.

I'm going to assume that this is going to be an unmonitored area of the board that requires NO MODERATION - call it an "anything goes" part of this board.

I see much more down side than up side. I see it possibly negatively impacting the overall "calmness" of the main forum. Little squabbles will pour from the "play ground" into the real forum.

Go for it but be warned you are opening Pandora's Box. It's the proverbial "can of worms" that really doesn't need to be opened.

I see no upside to including politics and religious postings here; I have never seen it work on any non-political or non-religious forum. I love to yammer about this stuff as much as the next guy, maybe a little more, but I think it would end up as very divisive.

I said don't allow either. This board is for vintage baseball cards. If someone wants a religion or politics board they can find another one. That stuff always starts fights and hurtful words always get thrown around.

Well said, Fred.

I dont believe in a god (because Im scared of meeting heaven's residents).

But I think such a section could be entertaining!

Heck, I voted "dont care" to both and I will not participate if its installed (and shame on me if I allow myself to get sucked in), really Im now curious as all get-out on what Leon wants to post. I say if it gets shot down, we give Leon a moment of grace to post whatever he wants, one time, on his own board.

I hope Leon over rules the voting & says, as in the 1980's movie Risky Business, "Sometimes you gotta say ....."

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No vote
 

I voted no as I look at this forum as an escape from that stuff. This can also be a very vocal group (that's a good thing) with strong opinions (also good) but it could undermine relationships otherwise based upon our mutual appreciation for the hobby. There are plenty of other places to hold those discussions anyway...

Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! Click on the icons below to visit the different areas. Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com. Enjoy!

I vote NO
 

If no one liked Bruce's posts because they were quite a bit more than colorful, what the heck do you think a political/religious section will bring? Do we really want the threats and name calling to reach new highs, because it most certainly will. I would tread very carefully with that one!

Why do threats and name calling have to be a part of religious or political dialogue? Is the fine art of debate no longer taught in schools?

I voted no. And would vote again if I could.

Would someone go to a religious forum and start a vintage baseball card discussion? Someone try it and tell me how that goes over.

For the last 10 years I have worked for or with local governments in senior management positions. Never has politics been so bad.

On a daily basis I have people yell at me because there streets aren't plowed to the pavement because "I am not a member of XXXX party." Never before have I heard that. Never mind that here in NJ there is 1,345 feet of snow on the ground with no place to put it. It's because of the political party they belong to.

This is a vintage baseball forum. Shouldn't be anything else.

yes
 

I voted yes to both. I think people can disagree vehemently on things and still be on good terms. That is the art of Democracy. I got in a fistfight with a friend back in 2000 and we voted for the same candidate. We are still friends. My barber and I disagree on politics and we still get along. I do tend to agree with him more when he has sharp objects near my throat, however.

I voted yes.

You don't have to chime in or even view the thread if you do not wish.

.
 

Nobody said anything about a political/religious section. The idea was to allow these topics to be discussed if members wanted to.....not to start a new section all together specifically for this.

I voted for "neither"--I just don't see how it wouldn't end up spilling over to the other boards after a heated discussion. I just don't think it's a section that should be part of, or is needed, on this elite Net54 sports board.

couple points
 

Wow, you guys still have some great arguments for and against. Whomever said there would be a section for politics and religion didn't quite understand the section being debated. It will be open, not specific, and this debate concerns those 2 areas of discussion...not their own section.

Folks have said "do I really want that headache?" I guess I am jaded because I believe our membership can have discussions and debate without going at each other's throats every second. If it is a go I am still undecided on how much moderating would be done....chances are it would be less than the regular board but still looked at. Someone mentioned is membership or posts down? Quite the contrary. We had 65 new members join in November, 66 in Dec and so far in January we have had 40. We started with around 600 members after the first 3 months on the new board s/w (we couldn't count with the old board) and today we have approximately 2400 registered members. As for posts, I am not sure but I would guess they are up a little bit and the BST is up substantially. So, the board's health is fine. That is not the issue. As I said in my initial post I think it would be good for our members to be able to chat about ordinary stuff, since we are a family. And as I said, there are some times I would like to post about something that is way OT and I don't because I really shouldn't.

Whomever posted a bit of the rules earlier is correct in what our forum is about. However, I think it would be a better place with an area to chat with my friends if I want to, not pertaining to sports. The real debate is concerning politics, and to a lesser degree religion, as it probably won't be talked about much anyway. I mean really, who cares how others believe? That is their personal business and more power to everyone on that matter. I hope this gives a few more thoughts. I will say I am still almost 50/50 in my thinking of allowing the politics to be discussed. I thought it would be a bit more on the affirmative side but no, after reading everyone's thoughts, I am back to square one on the issue. Also, no, there is no burning desire to post some extraordinary circumstance. If there was I would just use my "freebie" pass for an OT and do it. This is more of a longer term solution to make the board better. That is all. Thanks to all who have voiced opinions so far. They are appreciated very much. regards

Water Coolers Suck! See, it's already getting nasty :)

Reading the responses from other board members, it seems that they are the kind of people that have a good grip on their self control, so I can't see them dragging down a friendly debate. Unless a no vote is their way of saying, "No, please don't tempt my inner a$$h@le"

I voted Don't Care. I won't get involved in a heated opinion debate anyway.

As a social experiment, if this section does exist for a period of time, we might find out that people of a particular party collect specific cards more than people of another party. That would be weird, wouldn't it? You might hear angry remarks like, "You left winged T206ers are all alike...." :D Or not ;)

The problem with society today is those damn Right Wing Old Judge Collectors...

Leon - I voted "yes" to both before reading all the posts, because I know that I can read your liberal Republican (do I sense an oxymoron here?) views without going ballistic on you, and I'm sure you can react likewise when you read my conservative Democrat views! :D

But, after reading all the posts, I now think it would be best not to allow either because these two subjects are too divisive - why risk ruining the good thing that you/we have going?!

Having said this, I suggest that if you do allow both, that you establish separate sections for each in addition to the water cooler section (in which neither politics nor religion would be permitted).
Val

r and p
 

as i said in my earlier post, i have been on this board for a number of years and am amazed and happy to see how much less the ad hominem has been in the last couple of years with the new forum.
the discussions and scholarship regarding the beautiful pieces of cardboard
have excelled in many ways, too, even though we have many who come on board as admitted newbies.
I like what we've become.
I remember full well over the years when discussions of religion and politics slipped in.
These tended to be the worst of times for our board with ad hominem at its height.
I say that we stay loyal to the cardboard.
And by doing so, I believe we will continue to stay loyal to each other as colleagues, friends, and family---the last word underscored ably by Leon---
without ad hominem.
My dear friend, Barry Sloate, i'm surprised that you indicate a 30 day trial, for
i've seen you deeply hurt at some comments in the area of religion over the years. I,too, was hurt by the comments. I don't want this to happen to you or anyone again.
I've said enough. I'll be on this board for ages---just like i've already been on it for ages---no matter what is decided. The one who mentioned Pandora's box earlier speaks to the heart of my own fear.
all the best,
barry

Posts 2, 4, 7, 11, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21, 22, 24, 26, 28, 29, 33, 34, 43, 44, 49, 51, 56, 57, 58, 60, 64, 69, and most especially 19 and 50, speak for us. An Anything-Goes (sub)forum will instantly invite politics and religion as the main topics there. Vehement animosity on a politics/religion forum is inevitable, and the ill feelings that will generate will inevitably and unstoppably spill over onto the main boards and the relationships between members. We know from experience. We run our own little podunk forums. So we vote no, just to encourage Leon not to entertain the idea any further. That said, we hate being told how to run our forums, and this forum is Leon's, so it's entirely his call. He can, and should, do as he likes and as he thinks best.

I voted "Yes" before I voted "No."

At Net54, I would keep the discussion to Ty Cobb vs. Honus Wagner rather than Creationism vs. Evolution.

I voted in the "I don't care,do what you want to:)" section, mostly because I can't make up my mind. I see both sides, the pros and cons. But I also agree that if you don't want to participate in it, just don't click on it ;).

I'm sure other topics would be going on in there, maybe other than religion and politics? I've often wondered how many board members are into the show on the History channel called "Ancient Aliens"........I love that show- to me, it is fascinating (just an example :D)

Sincerely, Clayton

Hi Barry- I was hurt over some comments about religion? You know, I don't remember. In fact, I can't even recall a discussion we've had on the board regarding it. Politics yes, but not religion. Is it just the old memory not working?:(

It doesn't matter whether or not Leon does decide to expand the board, because the fact is nobody has to even look at a new section if they so choose. I never look at the golf section, and if someone discovered the cure for cancer and posted it there I wouldn't even know about it.

You can either read and participate in a political debate; or just read and not participate; or not even open it at all. In that respect, there's no harm in Leon starting a new area of the board.

Barry, we know you haven't been watching the Golf section -- we've been killing you in there the past few months. Carry on.

I voted no religion and no politics. It brings on arguments and noone's mind is ever changed. I would participate in water cooler if it was about music or some other topic but when it gets into politics especially it can become nasty. I want all aspects on net 54 to be enjoyable and nin-stressful.

Jim

Jim! Welcome back.

Am I missing something here? I thought Baseball was a religion! :D

Now because of what Jeff said I felt obligated to check out the golf section...not a whole lot of activity over there.

A section on popular music, as Jim suggested, would be hugely popular. Of course it too has nothing to do with vintage baseball cards, but there probably wouldn't be too much arguing going on.

Not having read any of the posts on this thread, I voted against discussion of politics and religion. I feel very strongly about it. It only brings animosity and serves to divide the board. If people want to discuss that stuff off the board, go for it. I do every day. But I don't want that stuff souring a refuge from the storm
JimB

Religion
 

Hi I'd like to change my vote and be the first and only to vote for religion only but not politics. I can handle a food fight over Jesus but not so much politics :) On a serious note I think "media" should be one of the topics tossed in there with "religion" and "politics"