Restored Honus Wagner at SCP Auctions
 

Hi

Any thoughts on the T206 Honus Wagner Authentic Restored?

The pre auction estimate was $2,000,000

https://catalog.scpauctions.com/1909...-LOT48850.aspx

Just tough when you think about that kind of money for a card that was "restored"

Before the restoration

"This example once suffered from a surface crease which detracted from the beauty of the card. "

https://i.imgur.com/2iUGYG1.jpg

$2m seems conservative to me. IMO.

I'd rather bid on this version. Not that I would, but this one, not the other one.

I LOVE the beginning of the description . . .


"Every hobby has its penultimate prize,"


When my kids were young (20 years ago) when we'd go out for dinner on a Friday night, I would teach the kids a new word. One of those nights, the word was penultimate.

Within a couple of weeks, my son's grammar school teacher misused the word and got called out on it!


So, was the word misused in the auction description, or are they cleverly pointing out that the restored version is the next to last prize!

Agreed. Sacrilegious to do anything to that original card. IMO.

Who was your kid's teacher, Mr. Dorskii?

The write-up states "“AUTHENTIC RESTORED,” a designation instituted by PSA for use on higher end vintage treasures."

Have they used this designation before or did they institute it expressly for the Wagner?

To be fair, it was the ultimate prize before they added pen to it.

How much of a card has to be left for it to be "authentic"? If I take a T206 Harry Steinfeldt and draw Honus over it so it looks realistic, is that an "authentic" T206 Wagner? Because in my opinion, this treasure is now ruined.

It is a Wagner painting now, not a card anymore.

That T206 Wagner looks to have a bit more than a surface crease (singular) in the “before” picture.

What happened to this PSA 7 1933 Goudey Ruth that is also in the SCP Auction. I am not sure how they can rate this as a “9/10 in the eye appeal department.”

https://catalog.scpauctions.com/1933...-LOT48853.aspx

I think they meant the back is 9/10 in the eye appeal.... which I agree.

How come this Ruth can zoom in much closer than the Wagner? Are they trying to hide the true current condition of the Wagner?

That card looks weird. Like they drew him with too much makeup. The other Wagner is the the one at the Baseball HOF.

The makeup made his nose look bigger. I would take the makeup back to the store and ask for a refund.

Brian

You can blow up a Jordan Photograph 20x but this Wagner can only blow up 1.25x ... why?? :confused:

https://catalog.scpauctions.com/STUN...-LOT50039.aspx

This one doesn't even have a crease. First $3 million takes it.

I saw that!
 

WTF - that card looks like it had a few too many days out in the sun - how is that a 7!?

ugliest wagner i've ever seen. if that's a 2 million card I'll eat a t206!

The card looks 1000 times better now than before. If I had the money I'd go for it.

Hey, I had to draw that guy from memory!

Perhaps others are reading our forum (or not)

But after the first day the bidding is only at $389k.

I thought it would have been a bit higher after one day with more bidders getting in their bids early.

I personally wouldn't want any part of that card, even if I did have the money.

A few hours and a few bids later and the auction price on the Wagner jumped fast.

$835k before BP and $1 million with buyers premium.

I guess bidders are looking at as a restoration that adds value versus altered and potentially devalued.

Either that or just to be to able to get the “Holy Grail” of baseball Cards

Looks like their are interested bidders and things will get interesting

The last Wagner graded A brought 2.5 million dollars. We will see if this one can match that or if this restoration devalued the card.

Agreed, no way that is a 7 in my mind.

That is one of the worst looking Goudey Ruth 144s I have seen. And after juice it's already over 30k? Maybe it's a registry thing because I wouldn't pay 5k for it unless it was to flip. I couldn't own it and look at it everyday. My last one wasn't quite up to snuff so I upgraded and it looked tons better than this 7, it was a 4. That is one ugly card to me. From their write up-

" GEM MINT reverse and pin point sharp corners give this example a 9/10 in the eye appeal department in our view."

Whomever "our" is certainly isn't a collector. Because of the sharp corners and great looking back I would give it a 2, at best.


As for the Wagner. Ugh..... what the heck? I agree they should return the make up they put on him. I honestly think I liked it better unrestored. It looks fake now.,
.

I am convinced that other than true, diehard collectors, people are buying the holder and not the card. I absolutely believe that if PSA were ever to do an April Fool's joke and issue an empty holder with a flip that says, "T206 Honus Wagner Invisible Gem-Mt 10," there would be a bidding frenzy on it.

Congratulations! You have just described an NFT.

Totally agree Leon. Fading is just not a priority for the TPG's in my experience. Having recently put together my '33 Goudey set, and having vivid colors near or at the top of my personal list of what's important to me on that set, I found that grades were mostly independent of fading/color saturation/whatever you care to call it. It bothers me much more than rounded corners, and presented a significant challenge to me as I built my set.

Good excuse for me to show off my #144 SGC 2 once again. I challenge the 7, stamp and all! ;)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...6b8c3536_z.jpghttps://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ba521c6a_z.jpg

I can't agree more Chad, I'd take your 2 over that "7" anyday, BTW, nice card!

As long as it's clearly labeled as restored, I don't have a problem in the world with it. However, I admit I collect "Authentic" cards with no qualms.

Actually interested in the final hammer on this as it will be telling on the overall temperature of collectors on the owners choice to have it worked on.

If restoration can preserve and is disclosed then I can accept to some degree. My issue is the artist did a very poor job. The nose, cleft, left eye and right cheek entirely change the appearance. It's very poorly done. Do we know who the artist/restorer was?

This item has a reserve. Here is how the auction rules read on reserves:

RESERVES A Reserve price is a minimum bid below which the lot will not be sold. Accordingly, if the reserve price is not met at the conclusion of the auction, the lot will not be sold. Reserve bid prices are not publicly available and will not be published. Any item with an unmet reserve will be annotated with "Reserve Not Met" in the online bidding. SCP may implement this reserve by bidding on behalf of the consigner and may place a bid up to the amount one increment below the reserve, by placing successive bids if necessary. No reserve bids placed by SCP will be executed at a level greater than one bid below the actual reserve. Any lot that had an unmet reserve at the conclusion of the auction will show as a "PASS" in the online catalog. Reserves when in place will be pre-determined and set within the auction software prior to the start of the auction. Maximum bids will be treated as straight bids on items with reserves until the reserve price is met. If you place a maximum bid in excess of a reserve amount that has not yet been met, your bid will automatically be placed at the reserve price. All bids placed after a reserve has been met will continue with normal bidding increments unless straight bids are placed by a bidder.

The point is we have no idea how many, if any, of these recent bids are anything more than the house making consecutive bids on behalf of the consignor to give the impression of bidder interest (which is exactly what is needed to generate the highest price). Maybe SCP read Jeff's prior post (#22) in this thread commenting on the lack of bidding the first day of bidding? Suddenly the bids started coming in and in Jeff's next post 13 hours later the bidding (with the BP) had hit the psychologically significant $1M level.

This to me well symbolizes the deceptive (but legal aspect) of the auction business -- the ability of the house to exercise bids on behalf of the consignor up to (the low end of) the item's estimated value. This tactic is universally employed by all prominent HAs across all fields of collecting, and absent federal legislation prohibiting the practice almost certainly will continue. HAs are expected by their consignors (and shareholders) to generate the highest possible prices for their consignors, and what state would dare proscribe the practice and induce HAs thinking of setting up/already headquartered in their jurisdictions to flee to a neighboring state? Not to mention too I doubt these states mind receiving the extra sales/use tax they receive by higher auctions prices.

I have referred to this practice of HAs exercising secret bids on behalf of the consignor to induce prospective bidders to believe there is genuine market interest at those levels as legalized fraud. Yes, if one reads the fine print one can be put on notice of the practice and therefore the uncertainty of the genuineness of any bid below the reserve price. But IMO it is the exception, not the rule, that auction observers are aware of what the auction rules allow to take place behind the scenes. Isn't the premise behind the illegality of fraudulent practices society's refusal to be a party to inducing people to believe something that in fact is not true, all with the objective of getting a person to be willing to pay something that otherwise he/she would not pay? HAs will respond that by disclosing in the rules that the practice exists, therefore bidders/observers have been fairly put on notice. But is that really true? At the end of the day why should a bidder need to have any uncertainty whether he/she is bidding against a "real" person?

"SCP may implement this reserve by bidding on behalf of the consigner and may place a bid up to the amount one increment below the reserve, by placing successive bids if necessary. No reserve bids placed by SCP will be executed at a level greater than one bid below the actual reserve."

^^^^ no good!!!!


On top of that..... I know SCP would call underbidders after auction is over and offer u items at the reserve plus juice.

Get ready. Today's buyers aren't all Net54 members.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

No they aren't. And it seems a lot of them don't know what the F they are doing! (according to the bids I see) They should become a member and get enlightened.

.

You guys need to consider all sides, not just the buyer looking to get steals. If you owned a card that just sold for 2.5 million dollars, you wouldn't sell yours for 1 million. You would want a reserve to protect your investment.

From the AH side, they aren't going to want a bunch of cards with high reserves that don't sell. They make their money on BP. They need cards to sell. They are only going to accept reserves for high profile cards and they are going to want most to be reasonable. A Wagner is going to get eyes on their other cards, so why wouldn't they do what it takes to get a copy of the Hobby's best card in their auction?

The buyer of Heritage's Joe Jackson autographed photo did pretty well with his investment despite the fact that almost everyone thinks the autograph is a forgery. The hobby has trended towards what the flip says is more important that what is inside. Buyers who are investors not collectors are only looking at the financials. They don't care about Net54 or what the hobby thinks of their purchases.

+1 to what Corey said so very well.

Maybe PWCC "conservation " is taking a foothold

because it's been soaked in bleach, peroxide and trimmed. Color looks like s***. A nice Authentic (Restored), IMHO

why didn't they just rebuild the borders too while they were at it?

Not saying I like it at all. The Wagner is hardly a "card" any longer and has transcended the hobby for decades. I don't really care that it is restored just wish they at least hired an artist worth a sh*t. It now looks like a Simpsons character.

I agree the restorer did a poor job.
That Card will continue to Be the Holy Grail of Cards to many collectors for decades to come.
Of Course we do not know the reserve but I hope it does sell and changes hands to someone hopefully is a collector vs an investor.

That really is funny. "a surface crease" More like a bicycle spoke card LOL.

It sounds like Larry Fritsch's (RIP) grading. And if you ordered 8 cards and returned 3 (about normal) due to missing chunks and described as VG :), then you got 5 really good deals. Always a prompt refund but you had to write what your issues were, with each one, when returning cards.
He had some scarce cards back in the day. Always fun...

Good luck to whomever goes for this Wagner. It's a humdinger.
.

I predict 1.33 Million for this patch up job

IMO that is one really ugly Wagner. It looks like someone stuck Jimmy Durante’s nose on Honus’ face.

that'd save me some indigestion!

Heh... I'm happy with my reprint. :cool:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...a2fba458_w.jpg

The card hasn’t received a bid since the first day. It’s gotten 11 bids and the reserve had not been met. The card currently sits $1.2mm below the AH’s estimate.

Although I would love to see this “example” get to the AH’s $2mm+ estimate, My money is on the card not hitting its reserve and not selling (a pass).

I also believe that the card would do better in it’s pre-restoration condition; in other words, I think the card is worth less in its current state than before it was restored.

The distinction between this practice and shill bidding strikes me as negligible. I thought AH's prohibited consignors from bidding on their own items. How is the AH doing it for them any different?

I like the restored version.

It's legal and understandable, IMO, if the hidden reserve was agreed to with the consignor before the auction started. If not, it's effectively shill bidding. The auctionhouse is tasked to sell the item for at least the minimum the seller will accept when the seller sets a reserve. If the card sits there at $400,000 for a couple of weeks, then it most likely won't sell at/above the reserve at the end.

Too bad you can't un-restore a card. :D

I'm sure if someone stuck it in their bike spokes, they would come pretty close. :D

That would be one expensive bike

I agree with this point. Regardless whether the AH is the party entering the bogus bid, the objective is the same -- to induce the bidder to believe a bid reflects genuine market interest from a "real" bidder. The only distinction between this practice and "regular" shill bidding is that this practice is forewarned in the auction rules as allowed to take place. As I stated in my original post (which for some strange reason -- senior moment?:o -- refers to AHs as HAs), I regard this distinction to be unconvincing.

It is my feeling that an item should always sell for one bid more than the second most interested party is willing to pay. I find anything that interferes with that anathema to the auction process.

Disagree. By this logic starting any card with an opening bid of more than .01 is shill bidding. There is very little difference between starting a card with a high opening bid and having a reserve. I have seen cards get no bids or one bid in auctions. I prefer the reserve being posted at sometime before the auction and not remain hidden.

This to me is the classic definition of market value, and I wholeheartedly agree that a realized price reflecting only one bid above a house bid or reserve price is not indicative of true market value. When the realized hammer price is the stated reserve (i.e., the item actually sells), at least in that instance the market has been put on notice what has taken place. That stands in contrast to a bid above a hidden reserve, which, even though stated in the rules as allowed to take place, is more deceptive.

Most professional restorations are reversible.

If pursuant to the auction rules the house is allowed to open the bidding (which is not the case with some AHs), then in that instance (i.e., an opening bid placed to give the impression of actual market interest at that level when in fact there is none), then yes, I would refer to that as a shill bid.

As a teenager (which for me was about a two decade process), if I bought something at a Saturday auction (I'm talking live in person auctions, pre eBay, and not talking baseball card auctions), Dad would see whatever it was and ask me what I'd paid for it, then he'd say "Well, when you buy something at an auction you can know one thing, that you paid more for something than anyone else there thought it was worth." But he'd been a child from the Depression.

We've become a nation of haters. And I see that in myself. I'm not very keen on the slabbing/grading of cards. But with this Wagner card I can see that it would be better preserved inside the plastic. I'm amused by what I see as the ardent fans of graded cards having their faith shaken by an altered card inside the slab.

Come on now... the card is a genuine Wagner. It looks better after it was worked on. It's in graded plastic. Who of us would not welcome that card into their collection? And are there any of us who, if we were given that card, we'd then burn it?

I like it.

I have to disagree with the logic here. Neither a high starting bid nor a reserve is the problem. It's the appearance of market interest in a card that is created by "bids" that aren't by someone intending to purchase. A high starting bid or a public reserve doesn't create that false impression.

That being said I don't believe in high starting bids or reserves either, but I have no problem chalking that up to personal taste and don't see anything wrong with either practice

What a mess! It looks like somebody ate it and puked it out!

Yawl need to cut this restorer some slack. He was given this nightmare of a card to work on, and it must have been extremely difficult. He had to spend days looking at this card under magnification and try to recreate the print spots. Obviously, matching the ink, which was made a hundred and ten years ago, wasn't easy to do. If you study the orange background, you'll see the colored-in areas appear yellowish. Again, what a mess. They should have just left the thing alone.

I agree that restoration is difficult, but you shouldn't restore a card if you have to rebuild the face of the player. This Wagner was a better choice for restoration.

I would be proud if I owned the unrestored card.

Regardless of how the restorer did and obviously it “worked” because someone is willing to pay a lot for this card.

But I like they way it was and I personally do not like the card being touched up

This.

Many years ago there was a restored Wagner for sale in Mastros; the restoration was later "reversed", although PSA still re-slabbed it as "authentic, altered".

Here's an image post-restoration reversal...

I'm glad that card was brought back to it's original condition. It looks great just the way it is.

Here's the restored version.

Attachment 483906

It's effectively the same thing.

Agreed it looks great and would look great in any collection.

I do not understand why they restored this one in the first place

Maybe this one was restored during the disco days when it was only worth a few thousand? Just guessing here.

It’s. A. Wagner.

Going to sell for a small fortune. Rightfully so.

$2m

You are probably right. Actually, if they cut it in 2 they could sell it twice!

and for the Wags that had the restoration removed. Good call.

.

Maybe if they read the archived threads or have a time machine. Because currently it only seems to be a bunch of whiners complaining about graded cards or other things they act like experts on but now less than some of these “novices”

I am assuming the buyers are looking at this as a piece of art then a baseball card collector. A display piece and they would rather look pretty.

I agree the potential buyers for this piece are buying it more the the status and prestige of owner the "Holy Grail of Baseball Cards"

And they will probably just be displaying it or showing it in that fashion and/or as a Piece of Art or Both