Kudos to LOTG - discovered counterfeit #311 1952 Mantle PSA 1 in latest auction
 

I have been after a 52 Mantle PSA 1 as that is the best my budget can do right now. It is very popular card and there are a ton of them but it is difficult to uncover a good priced one as everyone on ebay wants more than even VCP. I thought I finally landed one from most recent LOTG auction at what I thought was a fair price. $5,800 for a rough PSA 1 cert#19886752. Which I checked out on PSA site and it said it was a #311 PSA 1 Mantle. It was item #23 in some unique display with an autographed picture as well. I thought people had simply overlooked it, which is why I got it for such a low price. After winning the auction Al Crisafulli reached out saying he had questions of its authenticity and wanted to get PSA's opinion. It was confirmed by Jackie Curiel of PSA that the alleged PSA graded card was in fact a counterfeit. So bummed but at least I didnt pay $5k for a fake and Al was nice enough to credit me $100 for a future auction for my troubles.

As I think more about this it makes me wonder if any of my cards in holders could be fakes too.

What are your thoughts on the subject?

Has something like this happened to anyone here before?

Best,
Micah


http://loveofthegameauctions.com/Att...-LOT16655.aspx

Wow
 

Dark side of the hobby seems to be rearing it's ugly head quite a bit lately. Nice silver lining to this one - Al preemptively doing the right thing here - Go Al!

Al is one of the good guys in the hobby. You can bid with confidence in LOTG.

Kind of a misleading title given the outcome no?

One of the few auctions houses with whom I would place a max bid on an item.

Bummer you didn't finally get that Mantle, Micah. Hope you find a nice one down the road! Props also to Al for being proactive.

Agreed, perhaps a re-wording is in order?

Love of the Game is the Mom'n'Pop equivalent for auction houses. None of the big box master-of-the-universe crap that you get from many other AH's. Always a pleasure to deal with Al. When I park my bod in the assisted care home - I'm getting closer every day - on the way to the big cardshow in the sky look for the Kawika collection in LOTG. In a morbid sort of way I'm looking forward to seeing the catalog (if Al sends me one).

I figure I'll get out in front of this one.

Indeed, we had in our auction a display piece that included a '52 Mantle in a PSA holder with an authentic certification number.

On auction closing weekend I had a bidder ask a question about the piece, which led me to take a harder look at the card. Ultimately on Monday morning I sent an email to PSA to ask them if they'd kindly take a look at the card for me, and then I sent the entire display piece to them by FedEx.

I sent an email to Micah, advising him of the situation and asking him not to pay his invoice until I received a final word from PSA.

Wednesday night, I received the email from PSA that the card was, indeed, counterfeit. The fraudsters (not my consignor, but the person from whom he bought the display piece years ago) seem to have cracked an authentic Mantle out, inserted a fake, and then put the entire holder into what looked like a very nice framed display. Behind a sheet of glass and then the plastic holder, it was pretty convincing. Thankfully, we caught it before money exchanged hands, but offered Micah an account credit for the inconvenience.

Unfortunate for Micah, who felt he'd gotten a good price on a card, but very fortunate for Micah, who didn't wind up paying nearly $6K for a counterfeit.

-Al

+1

Al made everything right and took care of his customer, this title if googled and not read through would make it sound like you got ripped off, which isn't the case.

I can see your point but it will only let me edit the body not the title - do you know of a way to edit it?

When you open the message, click "go to advanced" then it will allow the title to be edited.

you are correct. Title changed.

ahhh, Thank you, Brian!

Thanks again, Al - looking forward to this fall's auction as I here you may have a card I've been trying to pick up.

That version should have the missing pixel in the upper left part of the blue, maybe it does and I just can't see it? Anyhow glad Al caught it.

I haver never dealt with LOTG. Glad to read of the quick service provided and disaster averted. I will make a point to check out the next auction.

By the way, was the holder in question one of the older ones or the new "light house" model?

And OP, I feel for you. While it is disappointing, LOTG saved you from even bigger problems down the road. A tip of there hat to the owner.

Even though my 52 Mantle slab from 2015 was scratch free, I decided to spend the extra money and send it in for the "light house" holder, for peace of mind for any future owners.

Can it be assumed the auto is also a fake?

Kudo's ot LOTG. Although I have never bid in a A/H before, I will remember this one if I ever decide to.

Kudos...what gave it away....was the case frosted Al?

On 2nd though...just looking at the colors would have raised a red flag with me.....it looks like a bad fake....but I am sure the case was frosted as well.

..

I was the tipster. Several things about the card looked wrong to me so I reached out to Al hoping a) that I was wrong and b) to help him avoid a mess by sending it out/paying the consignor if I was right.

Does anything about it look right?

fake Mantle
 

Good story. And nothing about that Mantle looks right. With respect to the missing pixel, my own Mantle doesn't "appear" to be missing the pixel. That's because whoever decided to "fix" mine decided it would look better if the missing pixel was colored in.:eek:

Peter is that really the card in question? That looks terrible. Al did anyone look at the card before putting it in the auction? Did it look that bad in person?

Micah, something similar happened a few years ago with a T206 Cobb Green in a PSA holder. I believe that it ended up with an ebay seller called Toppsaholic. What he did with it I don't know.

+1

that will show up again probably

Jesse, that scan is from the auction.

I just went to the auction site and saw. Hard to believe it made it in. It looks like it was printed in someone's living room and had either some dirt or printer ink spread across the surface.

And you were just asking in another thread how can the average collector catch something when the AH doesn't? :eek:

See, it happens.

Again...
 

How many times are we gonna see PSA screw up again. I understand they’re all human but on a 52 Mantle, regardless of condition, I’m sure there would be many eyes on it in house before it left.

Who says PSA screwed up, it's probably a Mexican or other hatchet job.

I had not looked at the auction lot but now looking back it, it is pretty obvious based on the scan Al provided online. I don't know Al but I think it goes without saying that it would not benefit him in anyway to have tried to pass it off as a legit card.

I think this is a perfect example of someone letting down their guard and assuming since a card is in a holder it is ok. Not sure any of us can be too careful no matter who we are buying from. Not everyone selling a "bad" card is doing it with the intent to screw you. Best to know as much as you can about what it is you are spending your money on.

No way did Al have bad intent, inconceivable. He should, however, have caught this on his own, but mistakes happen. All 52T Mantles should be scrutinized, period. And anyone considering buying one should take the time to learn the distinguishing characteristics of a real one.

I believe I prefaced my comment with something like unless they missed something obvious. I'd still like to hear an explanation on how they missed this one.

It's hard to imagine there is an explanation except oversight. There is no way Al scrutinized the card and believed it to be real, he's too knowledgeable.

Didn't he just hire another person as well?

Yeah, heard he missed it too, GASP!

:)

Great business model Al ! Sorry to everyone involved that it was a fake .

If one was running an auction house with a fine reputation and a glossy catalog, and if you only had "time" to carefully examine the higher end consignments, isn't a 52 Mantle perhaps the first (or second) card you should look at carefully.

Yeah, mistakes happen, but really....................................... :eek:

A Frank post I understood! Yes, we screwed up and didn't catch it when we should have.

The measure of a person or persons in this case is not if they make a mistake. Because we ALL do. The measure of those people is in how they react once the mistake has beeen made. And the reaction here was above reproach.
Al and Jeff are 2 of the best in the business. And no permanent damage was done.
And in the words of Forest Gump, “That’s all I have to say about that.”

Eric Recker

Well said!

+1!!

It was handled before the winner paid and was fixed when the issue was pointed out to them. It would have been ideal if it wasn't put in the auction, but I think there's some nitpicking here.

If you think we're nitpicking I'd suggest taking another look at that scan. If this were any other AH I doubt the responses would be so positive. I can only imagine what they'd look like if pwcc had let this card slip through the cracks. That is the worst fake 52 Mantle I can ever remember seeing.

Agreed with this.
Just a simple mistake that should be forgiven right?

I wonder if the consignor has done anything, like try to get his money back or call the cops.

I would like to know who wrote the description for the 52 Mantle for this auction. Because obviously that person looked at the card but somehow missed the fact that it was an obvious fake. I have nothing against Al of lotg personally, but way too many members are giving them a pass for putting a terrible card into their auction. Doing the right thing after it was pointed out to them does not excuse including this card in their auction.

Sorry we let you down Jesse. Apologies to you, the Mantle family and everyone else involved.

I appreciate that Jeff but no apology is owed to me personally. One is owed to your consignor and anyone who bid on this lot. We should be able to count on a major auction house to at least review any piece that is included in an auction. That someone could have studied this piece enough to write an elaborate description and yet couldn't see that it was a fake leads us as customers to question the credibility of your entire operation. I may be the only one not drinking the kool aid but I am extremely disappointed that you guys couldn't tell this was a fake card.

Sorry to lose you as a "customer," you'll be missed for sure.

man if thats how customers are treated in the hobby (afterall its not like the hobby is exploding with new buyers of thousand dollar cards that jessie buys) i feel sorry for how customers of non 1000 dollar cards are treated..

Jessie does make a point that there was time for an elaborate write-up but appears to be oversight on looking a very sought after card that is also subject to fraud. I get that everything was made right in the end but i dont think that type of comment serves anyone and is good for the hobby.....

I think at this point Jesses comments are just getting a bit old to them and Jeff is frustrated... the quotations on "customer" I assume may mean Jesse has never purchased anything through them... those that have such as myself are the ones defending them because they are a solid honest shop and when a mistake happens they do everything they can to take care of their customers.

LOTG has apologized on numerous accounts, the consignor accepted their apology, the winning bidder accepted their apology, but Jesse can't move on...I guess he will take this one to his grave. There is no time machine and the true character of an individual is shown in how they handle mistakes.

Goldin Auctions listed a 68 topps Bench as a Venezuela topps two months ago and only pulled it after people questioned it...in their description they called it one of the finest 68 Bench VZs in existence.... no one is perfect... move on...

Brian Longley

+1 all day long.

Jesse has an affinity for the 52 Mantle and I think he's just stunned and dismayed that a terrible fake could get by a reputable and important AH. It's fair criticism IMO and people shouldn't take him to the woodshed for venting a bit. This too shall pass, as they say.

Mantle
 

I agree with Peter. The criticism is fair in that you are putting some trust in the expertise of the auction house. If they are unable to catch a really bad fake, can you ever trust them to catch a well done one? That said, I don’t think anyone is suggesting it was done purposefully, so the message is you must do better than that to maintain the trust of the collectors and now we move on.

i agree.... mistakes happen...but it makes it hard to give top bidding on a card when you know a AH has made mistakes before..even if they are likely to correct them later.

Not saying it has happened, but what if these mistakes occur again and again...even though no purposeful, we shall see. I agree everyone should move on including Jesse but if not learn from the past we are doomed to repeat it....i think that was the point...

Could someone post a list of the auction houses that have never made a mistake before so that I can only bid with them?

And I'm sorry that an "auction house" can't identify such a terrible fake without having it pointed out to them by one of their customers. Yes we all make mistakes, but if you let this one in what else is getting by?

+1. I'd like to hear of these perfect AH's

I think there are mistakes and there are MISTAKES.

Qantas.... this statement reminds me of Ray in the Rainman; needless to say, they drove cross country rather than taking a plane bc Qantas did not fly to/from wherever they were/going....

Bad mistake, no doubt. But they owned it and fixed it, and everyone immediately affected seems ok with result. Hopefully LOTG learns and grows from the experience and the proof will be in the pudding. If they lost some customers, then they lost customers. I just feel like this is beating a dead horse and would love to see a different thread atop the board (granted, I just bumped the thread with this reply). :o

In all seriousness, we are very sorry for the mistake, and will definitely strive to be better going forward.

http://www.myccsa.com/

I don't think there are any "mistakes" being made there. ;)

Edd*e Sm*th

.

There is one, but they only allow bidders who have never made a mistake.

So just how many apologies would make this ok to those that think this is akin to a felony?
Did they make a mistake? Yep. Sure did.
Did they own it? Yep. Sure did.
Why the continued onslaughts? Really? I can’t understand it.
The dead horse is very obviously already dead, but apparently it is necessary to continue to beat it.
Well done dead horse beaters!

Haha. Just about right!

Mantle was not the only fake
 

I do not post too often, but read a good amount on this site to learn as much as possible about the hobby.

First, I have never met or know Al; however, I have won some small items in the love of game auctions and had no issues with anything in the process. I was surprised to see Jeff's post, which I read as sarcasm, concerning losing Jesse as a customer. While I have never worked in an auction house, logic would lead one to believe that every bidder and bid is equally important; without under bidders, the final bid does not reach its amount.

As for the 1952 Mantle, I do not collect this card or set, but because of the popularity of the card, I, like most collectors, have seen it a great deal lately and this does appear to be a bad fake! Now, my opinion may be biased at this point because I know it is faked, but it does appear pretty bad when I compare it to real Mantles.

Finally, the point of my post. There was, at least one other bad fake offered for sale in the last LOTG auction. Lot# 192 - 1933 All Star Game program was a bad fake and had known indications of being a fake (item is still in the catalog, but was removed from the website so I cannot provide a link). When I saw the item on the website, I immediately contacted Al and explained to him that the item needed his attention because I believed it was a fake. To Al's credit, he looked into it, removed the item prior to any bids being placed. Al emailed me back and explained that a few other individuals had noticed it was a fake and contacted him - problem resolved. I guess the immediate action by Al should be applauded; however, that means numerous individuals noticed it was a fake, but no one at LOTG did.

I absolutely do not think Al or anyone at LOTG had any ill intent with the Mantle or the 1933 All Star program; however, I also don't think these items should be making it into an auction house catalog. Mistakes do happen. No one is perfect. But there were more than one bad item in this auction. While all bidders should always do their own due diligence, I think many assume that when bidding in an auction house and paying 20+% in fees, that the auction house has weeded out the obvious fakes.

So, I just didn't think it was right that Jesse (I also don't know Jesse) was getting ridiculed for being upset with the Mantle and wanted to point out it was not a lone incident in this auction. Not sure that will change anyone's mind or not, but might as well get all the facts out there.

From what I have gathered from this thread, it should be labeled kudos to Jobu! Without him reaching out to Al and suggesting he take a closer look at that card, Micah would have a $5000 piece of trash sitting on his desk and be none the wiser.

No one notices when you pay attention to details, but they certainly notice when you don't...

@ndy k3nn3dy

I second the motion of “Kudos to Jobu”.

most accurate thought posted in this entire thread. excellent post that said a lot of things I have been thinking. Thank you!!

There are also other issues...some under bidders may of had more money freed up to bid on other consignor cards but were tied into the fake mantle , thus those other consignors lose out of getting max value on their items from those underbidders.... The point is the deal wasnt in a bubble... Jesse seemed concerned on how easily the card made its way to a reputable auction that took the time to write up on the card..

i also agree with you that someone that never wins an auction is still very much a customer as those legit underbids are very important..

Thanks Jake I feel better about myself now.:D

Something to consider: How many major companies, even when informed of fake or counterfeit items in their auctions and presented with strong evidence, refuse to remove said questionable lots?

I can think of several recent examples. And historically? Many more.

Too soon?

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=25382

In an ideal world every auction house would be 100% accurate in their descriptions and scrupulously honest. However, we do not live in an ideal world. All major auction houses make mistakes. The sheer volume of lots per employee that are processed makes this inevitable. My guess is that going forward Al and Jeff will take this as a challenge to improve their description accuracy. One thing they don’t have to work on is their honesty. A lot of other auctions cannot make that claim.

What examples do you speak of recently...(in 2017-2018)