Any issue with bring up comps when buying or selling a card?
 

With the National coming up in two weeks, I thought I would bring up an interesting topic (which I am sure will done at the National).

How do you feel (either when buying or selling a card) if someone brings up comps of said card? Here are two examples:

1. You are selling a psa 2 1933 Goudey Ruth Red. Potential buyer looks up comps on his phone and makes an offer based on that data.

2. You are buying a psa 2 1933 Goudey Ruth Red. Dealer has that card (with price identified), looks up comps on his phone and says he is right in line on a price.

I think a few years ago, this was frowned up. But now, not so sure. It seems more and more commonplace and accepted to do this (both as a buyer and seller). What do you think?

I tell them to take their comps and shove them. If you understand the vintage pre war market lots of cards don't often sell.

This is the approach lots of people take. It's still frowned upon.


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Comps dont work well with me--Too few sales on tough vintage cards (or comps from 3-5 years ago)---not all psa 3's etc are created equal (some nice and some not so nice)--also if using comps, you should look at all graded on a card or what a different grading company has sold for---Comps can be used for a gauge but in the end, it is up to the seller as to price a card and sell it.

If I was selling that Ruth and someone bought up comps I would tell them to pound sand. Comps are for 2023 Bowman. As a buyer I’ve never bought up comps. There is a thing called wiggle room that could change the price but not every seller has it.


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Don't forget to tell the dealer, "I don't care WTF you have into it" :D:D:D

Education is such a valuable tool, VCP at a card show in the palm of your had is very powerful. Saved many a ignorant overpaying buy. Not all but some dealers disparage this because not only do they have to fight the customer they have to fight the dealer who is acting as a customer/walking the floor not set up. The old I gotta have some room, well do you? Many are looking to score not collect. In 2023 where are the collectors? They're buying raw collector grade no need for stupid comps!!!!!! Look at the Damn Card not the Pocket Computer Screen!!!

I think comps are useful in negotiating, but it all depends on who you are dealing with. There are also cards that look better (and worse) than comps, which should factor into pricing but doesn't always.

A goudey Ruth is a readily available card that sells often enough. Comps definitely matter for a card like that.

Obviously, comparable sales are a guide and not gospel…which is what buyers (and sellers) fail to understand.

I think comps are important and I base most of my buying and selling decisions on them. That said, they need to be real comps- temporally relevant (last 1-2 years), an auction sale, and the physical attribute of card that sold needs to be compared to the card at issue. Some dealers don’t like to acknowledge comps, or listen to them. That may keep us from agreeing in price/doing a deal. So be it. Plenty of people to buy from. But that is why I like auctions - the items are necessarily for sale and the market determines the value/comp.

All forms of sales are based on comps. Not sure dealers resent comps as much as the way the concept is applied or misapplied. Taking into account scarcity of the item you are buying and the condition (not just the number on the slab) is what is usually missing from the equation. Timing and method of the sales (not just the last sale) are also an important concept that is often lost.

Well said

Like many here, I'm a 95% buyer, 5% seller (to support the 95%)... i always use and respect comps as long as they are similar to the card I am buying or selling.

In the end, cards will sell above or below comps or else prices would never change - but I think it's a reasonable directional (not hard/fast) rule.

I want to the National last year for the first time and comp discussion never seemed to insult anyone I was dealing with.

Have a great time - I'm jealous... wish I could go again.

This is a good thread, and I have wondered this question

As a buyer mainly, my opinion is as long as you bring up comps respectfully and respect the dealers opinion as well, you should have no problems. If a dealer doesn’t want to work with you around comps, tell them to have a nice day and take your business elsewhere!

Or have the dealer educate you in why you should not regard comps for the specific card. There might be a good learning opportunity. Besides, people like to be heard…. Might even give you some sway on another card that the dealer has.

Like others have said, plenty of options at a show like the National

if the card is scarce, comps provide less of a foundation to stand on, but it is a good starting point.

VCP, Comp Look Ups, Call a Friend.

All tools to use but be aware the buyer or seller may politely decline the numbers you provide.

In addition eye appeal is a factor as many buy the card more then the grade
In addition Rarity is a key factor. If the item is rare, does not come up that often then VCP, Comp etc does not work since no track record to refer to.
If it is more common like the Goudey Ruth, the 52 Mantle etc that seem to sell all the time then Comps are easier and make more sense.

And to many what they paid is a factor. IF someone over paid they may not be willing to sell it at your "price" they may be willing to wait even extended time for the price they want/need

There is even the emotional collector out their. Many times you have to pay higher for a price if you truly want something that someone does not want to sell because they have an attachment to it

As a seller 10%/buyer 90% I welcome comps. However a couple things:

1) If the last comp was 4 years ago it means little.

2) Not all cards assigned the same grade are the same. Old slabs in many cases were graded easier and also eye appeal is very much a thing.

3) If the card has 20 recent comps don't pick the cheapest or the most expensive.

4) There are some cards I bring to the National that I don't care if I sell.

5) If you call me some form of bro or brah more than 3 times I am going to ignore you.

Well said Bro:D

I feel like comps and VCP are complete waste of time with negotiating and pulling them up to be a Karen will ultimately sour your negotiations and ruin your purchase as well as your next possible one in the future. It's a terrible idea.

On the opposite side of the coin they are undoubtedly important to look up for yourself to educate prior to a negotiation. You should step away or quietly look before deciding to offer.

Anything and everything known to man has a value that is truly what you or another is willing to pay, what happened another time is negatable. For myself, I will look at prices and decide a ceiling and start talking. If we can't meet, I am comfortable walking away. I may also thank someone in a failed discussion for the effort, and kindly leave my number with a mention that the offer stands unless I find another that meets my needs. Because I was reasonable and treated someone with respect, I have received many a phone call later and settled over the phone. Those people will remember how you didn't whine or beat them up.

Just like a date, if it's no, take the no and go home. Pushing it will just get you a bad rep. Maybe the next time around your good nature will get to home base.

If I'm the buyer, I don't care what you paid for your card or what someone else did. My offer is what I'm willing to pay.

If I'm the seller, I don't care what someone else paid for a card. The price of my card is what I'm willing to sell it for.

When I was set up at the MPls show this past spring...and this was my first time ever set up at a show...customers would routinely stand at my table with their phone in front of them looking up comps. In fact this was the norm. It didn't really bother me as i was there to try to sell...not gouge. There was still a negotiation after being presented with this info.

This is the way it is now.

It's better to do your homework before you engage. Look up the card first, then start haggling. As a seller, if I see someone buried in his phone my concern is that he doesn't know whether the comps are truly comparable because it is so hit and miss, and that he won't really look at the card or listen to me. In other words, it can come off as rude.

For a card that transacts a lot, like a Goudey Ruth, it is relatively easy to get comps before you even get to the show. If a card is in the general range of the comps, I prefer to ask the seller what is the lowest price he will take for it, in cash. You may be pleasantly surprised. I don't generally bring up comps. Just doesn't sit right with me. A seller with a stupid high price won't be impressed anyway.

Rarity is a real problem. If you are seeing comps from 2 or more years ago but nothing recent, there is no real benefit to it, you just have to wing it. My usual response as a seller when that happens is to invite the buyer to go find it for that price and wish him good luck.

This is a good way to identify people it ain't worth dealing with. If I bring up what the card is selling for, using fair and recent comps, and the potential seller tells me to shove it up my ass, then I know that A) his price will not be within the realm of reason and B) they have anger issues and are not worth dealing with or giving my address too anyways.

I get not being happy with very old or unfair and not comparable comps, but objecting to the use of third party facts and data is not reasonable and insulting people who choose to use data and facts is a rather extreme and hostile approach.

I have good luck engaging reasonably with people. Comps are a good, reasonable pricing method for routinely available cards. Great scarcities are hard to comp and are more of a gut feel and how much do I want it conversation. Usually there is a way to get the seller a good profit and get me the card at a price I am happy with too, and we may amicably do business and converse. Haven't yet had someone tell me to shove the data up my ass, but I'm sure it will happen!

You read my mind… I just never understand unprovoked “baseball card anger”

It doesn't bother me when people bring them up. I've brought them up when it seemed appropriate, and I've never had anyone react angrily. It's just data, if sometimes imperfect.

It gets to be annoying when there isn't a lot of data for a card. For example, if a card is rare in any grade and someone says something like "a 1 sold for X, so your 3 should be Y".

That's not how things work and I don't like people telling me what my card should be priced at. I notice that when the tables are turned and the buyer becomes the dealer, their cards are always the exception.

Yup.

Bottom line is to conduct yourself as a buyer or a seller with respect and consideration. One can low ball with a genuine smile and likewise, a seller can ask a stupid and unrealistic amount for an item and not do it with a tude.

Sometimes an item really does not have a valid comp. At the end of the day if someone really wants the item and the seller really is willing to sell it, comp or not a deal will be made. The hobby is overrun right now with flippers on both sides of the table and it is annoying to witness it.

My advice is don't enter a negotiation expecting prime rib if you're only willing to pay for a burger. You'll end up wasting your time which is on you, but the dealer will rightfully be very irritated. And, don't buy a card if you can't afford to pay for it twice.

Fair comps are relative to the scarcity, condition of the card for the grade and other factors.

Just like Beckett price guide was a "guide" or "SMR" so is VCP. And if you want to recite the price guide then go ahead but it's a turn off. Do it discretely.

But I guess all this comes with levels of experience.


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Oh, definitely.

I meant much like what Adam mentioned, do the homework first. I do it off to the side or quietly after a quick excuse me, to avoid seeming rude. I also think the people that jam phones with comps in peoples faces seem like a tool.

I don't pretend that the dealer has no clue what the card is worth, it's a very rare day in which something is underpriced vs over. That's not a coincidence.

I just expect the usual each time: Dealer sets original price at highest ever plus 10% as a beginning. I do my research, if there are comps I may set a mental price around the average range of purchase prices with the newest most weighted. If the comps are zero, that's out the window and it's set on how much I really want it. My error card purchases seem to always fall in this bucket, lol.

We chat and hopefully come to a happy spot for everyone, if not...no hard feelings. I don't discuss comps, I often just say a general statement of "based on what I have seen sold lately, I would be comfortable here. I hope that works with you." As said before, I seldom meet a clueless vintage dealer that has no idea of what they have. My experiences walking with my son and dealing with the modern dealers that just started during the pandemic and have discussions about what "Market Movers" has as hot cards...not so much.

Here are a couple of things pertinent to the topic from my 'Collectorisms' thread...

885. Phonaticism
Surging headlong into negotiation battles at card shows with your cell phone - and the vast amount of past-sales data and other effective ammunition it holds - leading the charge.

973. The Blind Leading the Deaf (derogative)
An assessment of dealers whose pricing is not only a refusal to see what cards actually sell for, but who also won’t listen no matter how much documented proof of recent sales prices is presented to them.

Mainly because anything underpriced was purchased by another dealer during set-up.

Of course a fair comp is relative to the scarcity, condition, etc. I did not say otherwise. If someone cites a G grade sale for your EX card that would be unreasonable. No one has said otherwise. That is not what was actually said, just something easier for you to argue.

If you want to tell anyone who cites previous sales to shove it up their ass, that is right. That kind of nasty behavior is obviously going to tell some people who think that it might be a good idea to look at other sales that this is an unreasonable policy and not worth even dealing with.

If a person sees a seller with a PSA 5 Mantle, and they look at other PSA 5 sales of that Mantle recently and use them as part of the basis for their offer, and that seller tells them to take those comps and shove it up their asshole, 90% of buyers will drop it there (or throw some dirt back). The scenario does not have an unfair comp being used as anyone will agree that's not good. I get that scenario is easier to defend now, but that is not what was said.

Depends if you are buyer or seller ;)

I don't mind comps. IF I can't justify my price then I need to rethink my strategy, or have a museum. Here is a card being talked about that is quite common, actually. I am sure I paid about 25% over comp when I bought it (still around the same, I guess). The best cards get the best money. Average cards, of more collected sets, get average prices.

Many 25 year old hobby enthusiasts can't believe that comps are really a new tool spurred by the internet. "Back in the day' you either went to your local drug store and bought a pack, hoping you might land your own grail, or trade with your buddies; no auctions, card shows, VCP, dealers and the like. Trading was the key for any player and we 7 year olds had a good eye for the card's quality. I still remembering haggling and moaning, trading my '51 Bowman Rizzuto for a Reese (I was a die-hard Dodgers fan). High drama.
I think, given the prices on pre-war now, that the return to trading might be one of the big hobby stories of 2023. Of course, this is dealers and auction houses worst nightmares. Suddenly they are longer controlling things. Tough shit.

Any issue with bring up comps when buying or selling a card?
 

You should also see that I was being facetious in my response. Then I offered an explanation to the post. Not for sense of argument but a basis. You answer with a dissertation because it sounds like you would feel insulted if the dealer said that and probably have had someone tell you to go away in past. I normally don't respond to ignorance but in this case it deserves it.

If you were to come to buy from me you'd see I'm friendly and easy to deal with. If you come reciting comps and have a history with other people in the hobby of aggravating and insulting them well I'm sure like others will pay less attention to you.




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The attitudes of many dealers remind me of the old joke about the opening of the first McDonald's in Moscow in 1990:

The Soviet staff is being trained by an American team flown in to get the store up and running. For hours the Americans harangue them about being helpful, polite, patient, treating customers with respect, etc. Eventually, Ivan raises his hand. "You want us to be polite to customers?" "Yes Ivan, exactly!" "But...we have the burgers?!!"

As others have said, comps are very useful - as a starting point. I don't usually throw them in someone's face, but like to educate myself on how wildly overpriced the card actually is. Is it 30% overpriced, which is fairly common, or more like 60-70%. No dealer is going to fall to his knees and apologize over his pricing when you start telling him about comps. He knows full well how out of whack the price is. And is starting the game high. I usually open some negotiation and if it's clear its going nowhere just move in and save my breath.

And I don't usually start searching for comps standing in front of a table. Thaty's not helpful for anyone. Walk away, sit down with a drink at a table, do a little research. Return tio table if you think it's worth it.

Lots of dealers are praying for the combination of uninformed and flush with cash. If you spend sometime with comps at least you will have a few data points to begin an intelligent discussion.

Great Card Leon!! Smoker !!

Absolutely anecdotal, but I've seen buyers bringing up comps go south real quick with sellers when it's one of the first points they're negotiating with.

Working it in after a little back/forth, even if it's shrugged off, seems to land a bit softer when a buyer tosses the comp at a seller.

The buyer also needs to deal with the "Well, buy it there, then." or similar dismissive statements without getting derailed or feeling personally insulted. This is rarely an end point unless you melt down or otherwise get aggressively defensive.

issue is if really a true comp.

centering always different for many old cards

also buy it nows mean zero to me.

auctions maybe, but would need to see many bidders within the last 20 percent of the sale price..not just a fight between 1 or 2 bidders...also many auctions you wont know that info

I agree completely with Ryan. If a comp is relevant, based on graded and observable condition, and reasonably close in time, how can that not help set the value? Yes, every card is different, but grading and data have leveled the playing field on value determination and it’s an important tool. Don’t get the anger if it’s used appropriately. The times i have most issue with it is with the increased scrutiny on condition for higher grades at the third party grading services, many older grades are not a relevant comp. So you still have to judge each card. Still, more (and even some) info on past sales still is helpful.

This!

Agree w/Ryan as well regarding the use of VCP to estimate value of whatever I'm buying. Most stuff I tend to get don't have a bunch of recent sales so I do my best to triangulate value w/other, somewhat relevant cards.

I will say VCP is only what somebody paid for a card and sometimes those can be misleading. Case in point is a card I bought today. Last sale was 3 years ago at $60. I needed it for what I was doing and paid $175 so that doesn't make the card a $175 card all of a sudden. I just knew I couldn't find it otherwise and I wanted to finish the project. That may become a comparable going forward and honestly, it shouldn't be. I just happen to be the idiot that overpaid...haha!

That said, at the national, I'll use VCP to figure out a ballpark of value but won't throw that out as a comp. I figure the owner of the card has a price they want and if it fits with or without some negotiation, I'll buy it. In my experience, if I see a card that I feel is grossly overpriced, I won't talk to the seller/dealer about it because there's no way we'll ever agree on a number. I also won't bring up anything with why I think it's worth what its worth unless prompted. Seems to work for me but I'm sure others have their own way of buying.

Should be a fun and interesting show w/all the fluctuation in pricing. Looking forward to it!

I'm kinda funny when it comes to comps. I tend to look at them more after I buy something than before. I try to buy stuff on whether or not I like it, and if I like it at the price being offered.

Example: About a year ago, I bought a 1967 Mantle card at auction. I looked at the photos, and knew the BIN price was $100. Its not Mantle's best or most attractive card, and its towards the end of his career. I didn't currently have a Mantle card in my collection, so I bought it. It sat in my collection for at least a year before I sent it to SGC for grading and it came back as a 4. Then and only then did I look to see what SGC 4's were selling for. Yeah, I made a little on the purchase, but I love the card just the same as when i bought it, not any more because its worth more money. No matter the grade, or even if I kept it raw, the price I paid was what I thought was fair for the card that I was looking at, without knowing what anyone else's thoughts or past purchases may indicate.

I understand how money influences this hobby. Doesn't mean I have to like it though. :)

Agree with Justin D. I think it's not unreasonable to do some homework before going to the show to purchase a couple of big ticket items. It's not much work, really. And as others have mentioned, it's also all about wiggle room for the cards that are really in demand----asking for and getting more $$ is what causes the prices to go up, and many of us that own at least one 1933 Goudey Ruth that they bought 10+ years ago are probably happy that some transactions in the past few couple of years ended up being on the high side of the original negotiation.

The idea of leaving a dealer's table on a positive note is good advice for folks, especially newbies. I've gotten to know several dealers, some of whom I have never bought from for one reason or another (usually because they just don't have what I'm looking for at that particular time). But you may come back to that dealer next year, and the good rapport you created in the past may lead to a successful and mutually rewarding negotiation then.

I'm glad that my white whales these days are going to be confined to mid-grade cards that are in demand yet not scarce. That allows comparison-shopping. Not looking for a 1933 Goudey Ruth anymore. Would buy a Goudey Gehrig PSA 3 if I found one with great eye appeal at a fair price, but am mostly looking for cards like 1960 Fleer Ruth and Gehrigs in the PSA 6 range. And some 1955 Topps baseball star cards. These are fairly plentiful---they are popular, but not in as much demand as some of the other cards and in better conditions that would bankrupt me. So I'll do my homework and be ready to engage in the chase!!

It's all about using a little common sense and courtesy in dealing in person. We've all forgotten a bit on that score over the last few years. I'm setting up at the big Labor Day Weekend show in Anaheim this September, and I try to listen more than I talk, treat everyone with respect, and be aware of what I am and am not willing to accept on any given card. You want a deal on 500 cards from my bargain boxes? We'll talk. You want a deal on an N28? Not so much.

I own 200 t206s probably over paid for everyone of them .I sleep well at night .

Using comps to educate yourself...good.

Using comps in an effort to "educate" someone else...not so much.

I am not so sure why so many people have problems with potential buyers bringing up comps? Sure there are cards that sells so infrequently that comps are useless. But for more commonly sold or traded issues, comps are quite valuable. They are certainly a good starting point for negotiation. Many dealers prices are detached from reality, especially at the national. I have no problem with someone showing me proof that my prices are out of line.

Exactly Pete....I think some dealers get frustrated because they may have bought in auction and paid to much for said item they're trying to now sell. Maybe they're bitter with themselves for overpaying and take it out on people bringing up comps....idk...everyone perception is a little different with each situation and card. It's best to just have fun and not let any of this stuff bother you. It's just a card and a super awesome fun event. Just having fun and walking around talking to people/the experience is what makes it enjoyable to me.