Anyone else feeling raw is their only option these days?
 

Hi all, I know there’s been a lot of concern about the skyrocketing vintage market and while sure it’s a double edge that my personal collection has more value to it I feel like I’ve lost most of fun I was having the last few years building it and am priced out of what I liked to collect. I know many people here prefer raw to graded anyway but for me I was only buying graded cards because of the security to me that 1) they were authentic and 2) that at least there is some quantifiable determination of the grade of the card that is just too hard for me to do with raw online pictures. Problem is I typically liked to spend about $100-200 per card which 8 months ago would be able to get me mid to sometimes higher grade cards even of Aaron, Mays, etc.

Now it seems all I can afford is 2-3 grade range which usually means much less visually appealing cards. I can’t increase my budget so for that same price point find myself having to “gamble” on raw cards with the hope I can have them graded myself and they’ll still land mid tier. Just worries me more the better the cards look the more chance they’re trimmed or fakes.

Anyone else feel like they’re in this same boat?

In general, I like to buy Raw when I can. As long as I know where it's coming from. I've purchased Raw cards on here on various occasions, a good portion of my PC is Raw.

I've dipped into buying cards that are Slabbed Altered as well. It gives you more options at a cheaper price point. I'm eventually cacking them anyway, and it's for my PC, as long as I know it's real and presents nicely, I'm happy with it. Not exactly a common thought process though.

Or you can sell your higher grade one replace with lower grade and use that extra money for new card

I bought a few ungraded Willie Mays cards off COMC for precisely the reasons you spelled out. And, of course, the day after I bought them the sellers of said cards raised their prices hugely on their other (same year) Mays cards, which were in lesser shape. Seller's remorse, I guess. Up, up and away it goes...

Buy from reputable sellers!
 

I sell mostly raw cards. They are largely from original owner collections. I guarantee they are unaltered. There are a number of other reputable vintage dealers that offer similar assurances. As I believe someone already posted, know who you are buying from - it may somewhat limit your choices, but at least you can buy without worrying about alerations.

No, you are not alone--not by a long shot. To give yourself greater peace of mind, spend a little money on a loupe and a blacklight. These tools can help you detect fakes and altered cards. And, as others have said, know the sellers from whom you are buying. I look for lenient return policies as well. Never really have to use them, but I won't buy ungraded cards without a seller being willing to stand behind what he sells.

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Yes
 

Yes, the gap between raw and graded has grown much too wide and so I've found myself buying raw, some of which I will sub myself. It's not just you! I feel like the graded price is the "marked up" price and I have enough knowledge and skills that I don't need to pay that premium. A few exceptions are higher dollar cards that I don't like that risk (mostly) and so those types of cards I'm not really buying at this time....I bought a simple lighted hand-held magnifier from Amazon which assists me in catching flaws for most raw cards that come across my desk. Since I already know the grading standards well, I feel like I can grade my own cards with accuracy, and don't need to pay a TPG to do this for me.

I picked this up raw because of the increase in price of graded examples.

I still prefer raw rather than slabbed. I never made the jump, and then the scandals broke and I just continued buying free range cardboard. Sometimes I see cards graded of an average Joe, and I wonder how in the world they are worth $100 or more than an ungraded copy. That's a premium I'm not willing to pay.

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I've been doing the same over the past six months. Just sent a large order (for me) to PSA with a lot of vintage so we'll see how I did. I've got a '52 Minoso, '58 Mantle, and '60 Yaz RC that I'm hoping will do well. The rest of it will come in expectedly low.

Cards in their natural state has been my preference since 1957, when it was mostly the only option

I’ve always like the raw way just like ODB

Problem is seems like more and more of raw now are expecting to get comparable prices to what they perceive (or at least advertise) the card would grade without taking on any of the risk that it likely won't or the cost ($65)/time (6-9 months) to actually grade it. Seller's market for sure.

I love the "mostly" qualifier. The late '50s were the era of SPUTNIK GRADING and the ilk. :rolleyes:

I understand Al, but how much is too much? Is the natural habitat for a card even a soft sleeve and top loader or is plastic plastic? Stack with a rubber band to be truly as intended? Obviously I'm being facetious, I get that to many slabs are chunky and take away from the visible appeal of the card if you're too focused on the label. For me though, as I build my collection it is important to understand and track the value and something to equitably pass on to my kids without too much uncertainty. I have never sold a card in my life and don't plan to but if they choose to do that after I'm gone at least I can know they'll be less likely to get taken advantage of. Different strokes.

I buy some graded stuff but I mostly prefer cardboard tartare for my PC.

Agreed. I tend to look for poorly photographed cards on ebay, as lots of people scroll right by a lackluster thumbnail. I've gotten some really good deals that way. Same with cards sold as a lot instead of individually.

Great tips. I've actually been trying to focus on sellers that don't have a lot of feedback. This goes against my typical screening but if we're talking <$50 cards I feel like more likely to truly be someone that rediscovered their collection and just looking to cash in as opposed to a true dealer who has already made the "it's not worth grading" calculation and decided to sell raw.

I am still finding good buys from Ebay sellers that have outstanding feedback but only occasionally sell cards. You just have to put in the time to search.

I am a set builder and buy often from Greg Morris cards but closing bids are getting a little too rich for my blood.

I purchased a NM 1971 Nolan Ryan a few months ago from a seller who occasionally sells cards. Card in same condition from Morris sold for 3x what I paid.

Just be patient and don't fall into the trap.

I was worried there may have been some early slabs from the Christmas Rack Pack folks that I had missed

When I first joined here to move back into vintage, I had some low grade cards that I was trying to move to have money for t205s. 1952 Topps Jackie Robinson, 1953 Topps Mickey Mantle, 1954 Bowman Ted Williams and other Mantles and Rookies. I collected vintage in the 80s and none of my cards were graded. No one here had any interest.

I still have a 1933 Goudey set, all ungraded and a t206 set, with only 5 graded cards, all the graded cards recent purchases. I still prefer raw cards, it is good to see that I am not the only one. The more cards I get graded to sell, the more disenchanted I become with the whole idea of grading cards. There is no consistency by any of the companies, yet thousands of dollars are at stake over their opinion.

That's one of my biggest issues with Grading. I don't understand how a BGS 2 can be a PSA 3 or an SGC 1, and who exactly are these people grading them, what qualifications separate the guys at BGS from the guys at SGC?

I'm still not at the point where I can fully determine if some raw cards are real or fake, so with certain high end purchases, I have to make sure their graded, or if they are raw, are coming from someone that I trust/ is trust worthy. Fortunately there's many trustworthy people here on Net54!

Amen - plus, they live to nitpick and sh*t all over great-looking cards.

I was reading on the main board yesterday about the guy who submitted the Uncle Jimmy collection to PSA being shocked that they only got 4.5s, max, out of beautiful Goudeys and such. The cynic in me thought that PSA knows very well that so much of its business is due to people chasing the lottery-like prices of 7s and above, and to keep those prices lottery-like, they have to keep them "exclusive." So much of the current card market is about status and ego.

Free range cardboard! :D That's the funniest thing I've seen on this site in a very long time! I knew I wasn't alone from comments I've seen in other threads and now in this thread. I've built a pretty nice collection over the years, but this is just fun for me. I don't have retirement riding on this, nor do I think of my collection as part of my portfolio. Yes, I do have some slabs in my collection, but I much prefer to touch and smell collector grade cards. The cards I've picked up lately aren't high grade or designed to impress anyone else. They are just decent copies I found at decent prices, and I truly enjoy owning them. If you like high grade, then look away!

That is a beautiful card with the jagged edges one would expect to see from a card of that era.

Congrats

Lower Grade Raw
 

I've always purchased lower grade raw. I just never had interest in spending the extra money to buy graded.

It is so subjective and a money maker. Dealer friend submits a modest amount and was not happy with the results. His friend (who deals for a living and submits in bulk) let him send some along with his order and they got bumps. The exact same card 80% came back higher based on who submitted them! The whole system is crap IMO

Those are beauties!

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Thanks Andrew. Those jagged edges are what appealed to me as well. :)

Much of my collection was obtained prior to the existence of TPGs. Although I have never submitted a card for grading I do prefer to purchase cards graded in the PSA 6 range. I'm sure there are many beautiful upgraded cards in private collection that could be purchased for a song in comparison to graded versions. I know that there isn't a guarantee that graded cards haven't been tampered with prior to being stabbed. Nonetheless if I'm spending $300 or more for a card that I can't physically examine I prefer the sense of security even if its a false one. Here are some of my raw cards that I have owned for 35+ years. None would grade very high but they each have a story to tell which is most of the fun.

Thanks very much!

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Totally agree. There is nothing like the smell of mildew on old cardboard.

Yes, sir. I can also see that I can't type. I meant to say the touch and smell. Oh well, you got my meaning. [emoji1787]

There are, of course, many ways to enjoy this hobby, and I don't pretend that my way is the only way. I am now 47 (yikes!) and find myself returning to the type of collecting I enjoyed as a younger man in his very early 20s, perhaps late teens. In many instances, I am just happy to own a decent example of a card. Additionally, I have come to view my cards as ephemera much as I do the photos and programs that I own. I particularly enjoy collecting relics of the 50s, and cards happen to be a big part of thst---though not the only part. As the baseball "hobby" has progressed, collectors have accepted some standards to be applied to cards and their value that aren't present with other pieces of ephemera.

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Mike, I think you'd be surprised how much you could get for that Koufax. Even though the corners may not be perfect, you just don't find many examples so well centered. Nice spread you've got there!

Thanks Jarrod, I paid $5 for that Koufax. Which certainly serves to reveal my age. A few of my corners have been dinged over the years as well.

Mike - if cards of that age that look that great are considered "not in good condition," you know there's something wrong with people's perspective.

Beautiful card! I love the rough cut on it.

I've moved more to raw cards in the last three years, initially because I like albums best. Now, with the price jacks, I am selling slabbed cards I can replace with comparable raw ones for far less money. Not just cheapos either, here are two recent raw purchases I am very pleased with:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...Dickey%201.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...0Reese%201.jpg

Everyone on these forums has their opinion on graded cards, why they are in the hobby, yada yada yada. Everyone also knows how I stand. No graded cards. Not why I am in the hobby. I cracked out all my graded cards. No regrets. I can handle and enjoy my cards as I did as a kid. Guarantee my wife and daughter are sitting on a goldmine when I croak, and they know it.

Agree with every word, sir. And those are 2 sweet cards!

I have to find a way to snag a '52 Reese someday, somehow.

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Those 52s are beautiful

Put me in the "I prefer raw cards" club.

I like to touch, sort, stack them and then put them in binders for display. All that is much easier with raw cards.

The cards posted in this thread are what 1950's era cards SHOULD look like. They were opened by kids, then looked at, traded, flipped, etc. A pristine card from this era is suspicious.

The only time I've bought graded is if I found a mid-grade card that appears to be selling for the same price as raw, OR if I'm buying a card valued over $200...because I want the extra security that it's real and/or doesn't have damage to it that isn't easily seen in a scan. (although i have less confidence these days that even graded cards are all authentic, un-altered, etc.)

Quick answer: yes. Far better value. I have a range where the cards would grade on a bad day if I ever intend to sell (which is usually never anyway) and if I ever have alteration issues I just make sure I buy from a source I can get a refund no matter what. Never had a problem there, though.

No forensics forme
 

I am - and have been for a long while - at the point where, if I can't fully determine if some card is real or fake, using just my own knowledge gained from experience and research, I happily accept it as real without recrimination or regret. This probably means that there may be a high-end card in my collection that actually is fake, but since my cards have sat on shelves for so long neglected and undisturbed, the distinction doesn't concern me very much.:)

Exactly, same here. I started collecting long before the graded card thing.I have maybe 50 graded cards in my collection. Am in the process of freeing them.

My collection also includes thousands of Game Programs, Books,yearbooks,Audio recordings. My wife never complains. IF she said "either the stuff goes or I go", I would miss her terribly.

None of my 4 kids have any interest in my collection. They don't want me to dispose my collection at some point. Just do what makes me happy and don't worry about the future. I plan on leaving instructions on how to disburse everything after I go to the Horizontal Hilton, swim with the fishes etc.

I was able to sell off a bunch of slabbed cards over the weekend and simultaneously replace with nice raw for a fraction of the cost. Gonna keep doing that. They're easier to store, lighter, and fit into albums way better.

I agree with this. For those talking about buying raw at a discount to graded, please PM with which sellers do this, because I have not seen one dealer that does this.

I spent last year buying raw at some of the large reputable Ebay sellers (mostly auctions... thousands), I would say 5-10% of the time I was able to pay a discount to the PSA equivalent. Otherwise the card was closing very close to PSA and sometimes higher (highest listing is NM-MT, so sometimes buyers think they are getting MT and pay a lot more). I definitely got some good deals, but overall the market made me look smart by bailing me out of any overpaying.

if you ask me, you all have it backwards, its buying raw where the buyer gets hurt. Sellers love being able to sell raw cards and not have to go through the cost and hassle of grading. they basically get the PSA-equivalent price. All sellers over-grade. Sure the good ones will be in-line a lot of the time, but they definitely tend to over-estimating rather than under-estimating. Even those that offer 'no questions asked' returns know that many buyers just won't go through the hassle to return a card unless it is egregiously misrepresented. Things like centering, subtle wrinkles and paper loss are generally ignored when the seller applies their 'internal' grading system. it does not matter, because in competitive auctions there are too many bidders who push the card to graded pricing..

Centering is a non-issue for fraud; you literally can see the centering in any decent scan so there is no basis to bitch about centering. As for bargains, you just have to forage a bit. Also, your data points may be a bit off. Slabbed cards are definitely selling at a premium right now. I've replaced perhaps 20 slabbed 1970s basketball cards lately with raw and except for a few have obtained similar condition cards for a fraction of what the slabbed cards sold for.

I never used the word 'fraud' and there is no 'bi----ng'. its just the business. Sellers ignore centering when listing their grades. it is what it is. obviously anyone can check that on a scan and decide for him/her self. but many newbies don't necessarily understand how centering impacts grade and value, and it does not take much to move the market. it took me a lot of buying experience to figure out the game.. my point is that these transgressions are purposeful by the selling community, its how they profit. I call it grade arbitrage. I am talking about the big volume online auctioneers, not the local flea market. if you have enough eyeballs on your auction, you can auction off a card that would be EX+ by any standard scale, describe as NM, and it will sell at PSA NM price. to add insult to injury, some of the folks rail against the TPGs in the description! while at the same time create an alternate universe.