T216s, how do they stack up with their E card counterparts?
 

I love the People's Tobacco cards. I was wondering which of the E cards that share the same images usually go higher, lower, or about the same? Are there specific players that do better in one set over another? And always a good opportunity to show your cards!

People's
 

I also love the People's cards. I would think that all of these cards would sell for more than their caramel or baking counterparts, with Virginia Extra being the most difficult, Mino would be next, with Kotton being the most common.

There are a few things that I am unsure of in regard to the Kotton's. There are 3 different Kotton back's. Does each player have one of the backs that is the only back available for that particular player or is each player available with each of the 3 backs. Has anyone ever seen a player who has more than one of the available back styles?

Also, some of the Kotton's are available with a thin paper stock rather than a cardboard stock. Is the thin paper version limited to one style of back or do all 3 backs have a paper version? Do all of the players have a paper version?

What about Mino and Virginia Extra? Do they also have a paper version?

Thanks, Rick

I'm not sure for all players but I do know that the Dots Miller big glove is available in t216 with 5 possible backs...all 3 kottons, mino and blank. I currently have 4 of the 5.

And how could I forget the VE back as well...that's 6!!!!

Hey Rick,

So the "paper version" is limited to Virginia Extra and the Kotton "Never Go Out" big scroll -- and all of the VE and KNGO are thin paper. The Kotton "Not in a Trust" (KNIT), Kotton 123 (K123), and Mino are all on regular stock.

Not all players are available with all backs, and this is very much true for the team variations.

Cheers,
Steve

I love the T216s and had a fair amount in my first collection. It took several years to get my first VE so I had to have one for my current collection too. I concur with what Steve said, right above, except I am hopeful all players can eventually be found with all backs. I haven't seen anything (yet) that makes me think we can't eventually find them. I haven't seen any of the back styles have a different type stock.
Overall, I don't think their value is as high as it should be relative to their extreme scarcity but then again I am biased..

Pete, your run is a great example. And I wasn't thinking about the VE or MINO either, but I should. With Dots, which of the types were highest to get, and which were bargains, comparatively? And do you guys see the prices holding the same player to player? Say someone did a run with Speaker, would you expect the same price ratios if someone did a run with Fromme? Are there players that would be harder in the E sets than in T216, if so, which ones? Thanks.

The easiest to obtain for me was the mino...which tells you something about t216!!!!! Then the blank backs came to me...which there are 2 in existence I believe and I have both. Then one by one I acquired 2 of the kottons. This took me maybe 5-7 years btw.

I don't know if its others running me up because they know I want some of these cards...on the other hand I've had friends step aside for the sake of my run too. Point being miller is not priced at what a common would be. I've paid hofer money for a few...but never low common prices.

My advice if you are going for a run is not to tell many people!!!!!!! Try to obtain the majority before the secret is out!!!!

Were any bargains?????? The blank backs were the biggest bargains of the t216 millers I have. Right time right place.

Thanks
 

Hey guys, thanks for the answers!

Rick

Pete, thanks for the info. My point of the thread is really to just talk about cards. When you say you have two blank backs, do you mean two blank back T216 Miller, same pose for both? If so, that is very interesting. I've not seen two blank back T216 in the same pose before. If they are both Miller, could you show them, please?

I've owned all of the ad backs at one point or another and have a couple in my current collection. I estimate that altogether there are about 1000 T216s. Probably all fronts were printed with all backs, but I think it's very unlikely that a master set is possible, given how poorly the thin ones have survived. The vast majority of the 300 or so surviving ones are in poor (or "authentic") condition.

The rarity ordering mentioned above is correct, and the two thin paper types are usually a bargain relative to their total numbers.

if u must!

Pete, those are so cool. The price of $.01 for the one, cut that in half for the other, but probably would take a grand or two for shipping, would be my guess. :)

I don't have any formal proof yet, but I'm fairly confident that you can't find all players with all backs. I believe that the Kotton "Never Go Out" big scroll (KNGO) and the Virginia Extra were printed first on the thin paper. At the end of those runs, they started printing the KNIT, K123, and Mino backs.

If you look at the team changes as well as the players with only one team, you'll see what I mean.

For example, Fred Jacklitsch -- he played with Philly through the 1910 season, then in the minors for 1911 through 1913, and then went to the Baltimore Feds for the 1914-1915 seasons. He has with Phila. Nat. and Baltimore Feds cards in the set, but you'll only find the KNGO and VE backs with Phila. Nat. You won't find those two backs with Baltimore, but you will find K123 and Mino backs with Baltimore

Another example is Ray Demmitt. He only has Chicago Am. cards, and he played for them in 1914-1915. I'd love to see someone show a KNGO or VE of Demmitt, but I don't think they exist. The K123 and Mino definitely exist.

Eddie Plank is only pictured with St. Louis Feds, and he played with them in 1915. You won't find a KNGO or VE of him, but the K123 and Mino exist.

On the flip side, Lajoie Cleveland Amer. (fielding) I believe is only ever found with a KNGO back (although I think I VE could exist). Lajoie was with Cleveland through the 1914 season before going to the Philadelphia Athletics for 1915-1916. The Lajoie Portrait is only found with Phila. Americans team caption, and isn't found with the KNGO back, but definitely has the K123 and Mino backs. (I think the KNIT back could exist, but I haven't confirmed it...only my list of things to do.)

Chief Bender (striped cap, Baltimore Feds) -- he played with them in 1915, and that can be found with the KNIT, K123, and Mino backs. The striped cap with Phila. Am. is found with the KNGO and VE backs. (I'd be interested to see Phila. Am / striped cap with any of the KNIT, K123, or Mino backs -- I haven't seen them, but since he was with them through 1914, perhaps they exist.)

(If anyone has any of the backs that I claim don't exist, please do show! I'd love to be wrong here. :))

Cheers,
Steve

Thanks Steve. Ok, I guess some won't be found. :)

thread
 

Awesome thread guys......Jerry

Steve, out of curiosity, have you ever seen a Young with anything other than KNGO back? From my very limited observations, I have seen this back multiple times, but never any others. This would also support your KNGO first theory since Young last played in 1911.

DJ

I have a Cobb SGC 1.5 with a Kotton Cigarettes- Mild and Sweet back (sorry, scanning is not one of my strengths) that I doubt I will ever part with. One thing I always wondered is why a single tobacco company issued their product with 3 different backs and a limited distribution, and thought perhaps each brand carried a different type or strength of tobacco. These are the issues that keep me awake at night.

Which Cobb, batting or leaning on bat?

I agree, DJ -- I, too, have only ever seen the KNGO back, and I expect that only it and a VE are possible (although I have not seen/heard of anyone having a VE).

Cheers,
Steve

Leaning on bat.

My favorite. All Time.

Hey John
 

Hi John... you always do have some nice little goodies tucked away. That's a great Cobb!

Knowledge
 

Every time that I start feeling like I am pretty knowledgeable about a particular set, a thread like this comes up and I realize how little I know compared to other collectors.

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experience.

Rick

So, we have spoke to great lengths about the T216 (which is awesome), but not at all about the E series cards. I have no idea which E series have specific players and which don't, but I will go with an example. This image of Crawford I believe is found in E90-1, E92 (though I don't know if it is available in Dockman, Croft Cocoa, and Croft black, blue, and red), E101, E102, E105, and E106, as well as T216. I know there are a lot of cards that the images are shared by the T216 images, some like this Speaker are in, say E90-1, but not in the others. What I am trying to see is if there are E series where the image is harder to find, and therefore more expensive, or are the T216 images normally going to be tougher and more valuable than the E series equivalents. I am guessing that most cards would be more rare and most valuable with a Croft's Red back, though when you factor in VE and MINO, I don't know if that holds true across the board. I also know I haven't included D303s, because that is another story. And keep on showing cards, they are awesome.

dont look now...but heres another crawford blank back!

Ed, I can confirm the Crawford exists for all of the sets you have listed (as well as the E92 Nadja). I think you are right that in most cases the E92 Red Crofts will be more rare and more valuable than any T216 including a VE or Mino. However, I think this has more to do with the overall population difference than a player to player comparison. I am only aware of 15 red crofts in total where SGC alone has graded at least 35 VE.

DJ

Twinsies!

So how about the Speaker? I think it is a tough image in E90? Is that the toughest Speaker with this image? I'm sure there are others, how about John's Cobb, for example? Is the T216 the harder to find than E series of the same image (I think we can all agree Croft's Red is toughest of all)? Which players would be harder to find in T216 and which would be harder in E (insert the specific series)? I should also mention I know they are in Tango Eggs as well, since I mentioned D303.

Here I go again, but I guess I can't help myself. When Leon sold his amazing type collection, I managed to snag the E92 Harry Davis SGC5 Crofts Red Back, a card I well knew he had. That one is one of a few I probably will be buried with.

Why would you hate the card so much you would want to be buried with it? The card would get ruined!

Re: T216s, how do they stack up with their E card counterparts?
 

That Crawford with the red background is not in E90-1. The pose and background are different.

Ed, you're absolutely right. I had a brain malfunction :D

DJ

Me too!

I guess that is why I want to discuss these cards, it is hard to know which ones are in which sets, and especially which ones that are common in one set, but tough as nails in a different set.

me thinks if you are looking for a specific card in many of the sets being discussed,,,t216, d303...they are all tough. no rarities within these sets im aware of...look at the pops...thery're all tough!!!

Pete, so true. However, among the rarities, there are some that are uber rare. This Bridwell with a MINO back is in the uber rare group. Just using the SGC population for this card in E90 is 36, the E106 is 14, the T216 Kotton has a listing with 5 Kotton that does not differentiate between this and the sliding image, 1 Kotton that is this image, this one MINO, and one VE that does not identify the image, so it could be this one, or might be sliding. D303 and Tango eggs doesn't identify whether they are sliding or this image, or if the one D303 is Mothers or General, and there are 5 Tango Eggs. So the pop reports are really hard to go by, in general. And we all know the reputation the pop reports have, between collectors that abhor slabbing their cards and the re-subs that change the pops.

My only objectives in this thread was to open dialogue and share collective wisdom on this board. People learn things from a nice, open forum discussion. Look at Steve's comments about T216 backs, these are things I would never know if I didn't ask. It is fun to learn about the cards and images that you love, and also have the opportunity to show your cards at the same time. Thanks to everyone for posting so far, it may be more fun to read about so and so doing something that bugs someone else, and all the mud slinging comments that go along with it, but I miss some of the old educational threads that were designed to just advance everyone's understanding of different card series. I don't have the experience that many of you do, I have been collecting for less than four years, many of you have forgot more than I can ever learn at this point. So I try to read the archives, and ask questions that will open a discussion. This is one of my all time favorites:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=146130

well in the example you provided...to me...this is effective at showing how much tougher t216 is compared to e106 compared to e90-1. I am not ware of any uber rarities within t216 especially in light of TPG'ers poor attention in detailing backs when graded. Within my miller run there are a handful of cards where the pop reports show low to moderate single digit pops...yet I don't consider them "uber rarities" within their set.

Not directly relevant as far as relative card populations, but it is always nice to have an easily accessed point of reference available when discussing the shared images among the 1910 era issues. I posted this E90-1 shared images list previously on another thread:

List of E90-1 card images found in other sets

Ok, now it is time to set down the 49 cards in the E90-1 American Caramel issue whose images are found in other sets. By each player's name I will include an abbreviation of all other sets the same image is seen (this time I will include Tango Egg and D380 Clement cards). If an image in one of the other sets is identified as a different player than it is in the E90-1 set, this player's name will be identified by parenthesis after the set in question.

The abbreviation key is as follows:

e92ca - E92 Croft's Candy
e92co - E92 Croft's Cocoa
e92d - E92 Dockman
e92n - E92 Nadja
e101 - E101
e102 - E102
e105 - E105 Mello Mint
e106 - E106 American Caramel
d303g - D303 General Baking
d303m - D303 Mothers Bread
t216k - T216 Kotton
t216m - T216 Mino
t216v - T216 Virginia Extra
d380- D380 Clement Bread
tng - Tango Eggs


E90-1 American Caramel cards with images found in other sets:

Bailey - e92n

Barry running - e106, d303g, t216k, t216m, t216v

Bemis - e92ca, e92co, e92d, e92n, e101, e105, t216k, t216m, t216v

Bescher - e92ca, e92co, e92d, e92n, e101, e102, e105, e106, d303g, d303m, t216k, t216m, t216v, tng

Bresnahan - e92n, e106, d303g, t216k, t216m, t216v, tng

Bridwell batting - e106, t216k,t216m, t216v, tng

Bush - e106, d303g, d303m, t216k, t216m, t216v

Chase portrait - e106, d303g, d303m, t216k, t216m, t216v, d380

Cobb side view - e106, d303g, t216k, t216m, t216v, d380

Collins - e92ca, e92co, e92n, e101, e102, e105, e106, d303g, t216k, t216m, t216v, tng

Demmitt - e106, d303g, d303m(Felsch), t216k, t216m, t216v, tng(Felsch)

Dougherty - e92ca, e92co, e92d, e92n, e101, e102, e105, t216k, t216m t216v

Ellis - E92n

Engle - e106, d303g, t216k, t216m, t216v

Fromme - e106, d303g, t216k, t216m, t216v

Gibson back view - e92ca, e92co, e92d, e92n, e101, e105, e106, d303g, d303m,
t216k, t216m, t216v

Gibson front view - e106, d303g, d303m, t216k, t216m, t216v

Hartzell batting - e92n, e106, d303g, d303m, t216k, t216m, t216v

Hartzell fielding - e92n, t216k, t216m, t216v, d380

Howell brown cap - e92n

Howell red cap - e92n, d380

Joss portrait - d380

Krause - d380

Lajoie portrait - e106, d303g, d303m, t216g, t216m, t216v

Lobert - e92ca, e92co, e92d, e92n, e101, e102, e105, e106, d303g, d303m,
t216k, t216m, t216v

Marquard - e106, d303g, d303m, t216k, t216m, t216v

McLean - e92ca, e92co, e92d, e92n, e101, e105, t216k, t216m, t216v

McQuillen - e106, d302g, t216k, t216m, t216v, tng

Miller fielding - e92ca, e92co, e92n, e101, e102, e105, e106, d303g, t216k, t216m,
t216v

Mullin - d380

Oakes - e92n, e106, d303g, t216k, t216m, t216v

O'Leary - d303g

Phelps - e92n

Plank - e106, d303g, d303m, t216k, t216m, t216v

Seigle - e92ca, e92co, e92d, e92n, e101, e105

Shean - e92ca, e92co, e92d, e92n, e101, e102, e105

Speaker - e106, d303g, d303m, t216k, t216m, t216v

Stanage - e106, d303g, t216k, t216m, t216v

Stone no hands - e92n, d380

Stone one hand - e92n

Stovall - e106, d303g, t216k, t216m, t216v

Summers - d380

Sweeney New York - e106, d303g, t216k, t216m, t216v, d380

Tinker portrait - e106, d303g, d303m, t216k, t216m, t216v

Wagner batting - e92ca, e92co, e92d, e92n, e101, e102, e105, e106, d303g, d303m, t216k, t216m, t216v

Wagner throwing - e92ca e92co, e92d, e92n, e101, e102, e105, e106, d303g, d303m, t216k, t216m, t216v

Wallace - e92n

Wiltse - e106, d303g, t216k, t216m, t216v

Young throwing - e92ca, e92co, e92d, e92n, e101, e105, t216k, t216m, t216v

The various T216 issues all have the same checklist in the SCD guide, but it is still up to debate whether each pose exists in every set. I have included them here just because I am wicked. Also I am not sure which pose is used in the Tango Egg set for Schaefer. If it is the vertical pose, then it needs to be added to the list.

Brian

great list...how do e92 blank backs fit in?

Pete, here is a list of E92 blank backs that I am aware of. I have not tried to put together a list of the T216 blank backs/scraps like your Crawford. Also, I know there is a Cobb batting blank back, but how was your Crawford identified as a T216 instead of E92? Is it a paper version?

Blank Back
- Chase x5 - SGC A, SGC 20, SGC 30, SGC 40, PSA 7
- Crawford - unknown
- Davis - PSA A
- Dougherty - SGC 40
- Gibson - Unknown
- Lajoie - SGC A
- McGraw x2 - was SGC 10 now raw (with cocoa overprint on front), SGC 40, SGC 60
- McLean - SGC 10
- Miller (fielding) - SGC 30
- Schlei - SGC 40
- Seigle - SGC 10
- Smith - SGC 40
- Tinker - SGC 40 (Goodwin - no scan)
- Wagner (throwing) - SGC40 (possibly 2, they appear to be the same, but have different cert numbers)
- Zimmerman - Unknown

Pete, I don't know about t216, but i do believe there are rarities in the different e92 sets and that those rarities.are not consistent across the different backs.

Ed, the only person that I believe could provide you with a very comprehensive, meaningful answer to your questions would be a very advanced collector of all the relevant sets, and I would be surprised if such a person exists on this planet (to use a Goodwin embellishment). I think the best you can do is use the pop reports and VCP coupled with info that advanced collectors of any of these individual sets are willing to share with you.

Steve, great stuff! You have most certainly done your T216 homework!

DJ, while I agree that E92 Red Croft's are rarer than any of the other sets mentioned in this thread, I suspect there are D303s, E105s, T216 Kottons, etc. that would sell for more than a comparable condition Red Croft's of the same player. I say this because Red Croft's are so scarce that I doubt any set collector is working on this set - ditto for the T216 VEs. But, there are dedicated collectors working on the D303, E105, T216 Kotton, etc. sets who will pay strong for tough cards they need for their sets.

As some/many are aware, I'm working on a back run of the Hugh Jennings pose that is in these sets. Below is a pic of the cards I currently have, except for a T216 Kotton Tobacco "K123" that I won in the recent Memory Lane auction that I will be picking up from them at the upcoming Chantilly Show. I paid significantly more for my T216 VE than any of my other Jennings cards, however, based on what a poor condition E105 Jennings sold for at auction earlier this year, I am sure that an E105 Jennings in the same condition as my T216 VE would sell for significantly more, even though the pop reports show fewer T216 VEs (2 vs. 3), because of the demand from E105 set collectors. Can anyone confirm the existence of any of the following Jennings cards: (1) E92 Croft's Candy - Red, (2) D303 Mother's Bread, (3) Blank back, or (4) T216 Kotton Tobacco thin paper ("KNGO")?

Val, you certainly could be right that certain e105/t216/d303 combination could outsell a red crofts. I know there are at least 2 people seriously building e105 sets, but as they acquire their cards, the next example generally drops signifcantly in price as the comptition is no longer there. This happened last year with the Jacklitsch card. I am aware of 1 collector considering pursuing a set of known red crofts. The bigger issue with the price of red crofts are people looking for any example as a type.

I know on the Crawford, the caption at the bottom is different. On the E92, it is c.f., on the T216 it is c. f., with a space in between.

Val,

I think that enough of us on here talking about these sets would add up to one non-existent advanced collector. This is all great, we are talkin' cards, man! That's what I was going for.

Where does the Crofts Blue stand in the tough to find scale?

Brian's list
 

[QUOTE=x2drich2000;1704659]Pete, here is a list of E92 blank backs that I am aware of. I have not tried to put together a list of the T216 blank backs/scraps like your Crawford. Also, I know there is a Cobb batting blank back, but how was your Crawford identified as a T216 instead of E92? Is it a paper version?

Hi Brian, I have a Dooin - Type 3 Kotton

Also, in this set, McQuillan is spelled with a "a", not an "e". :)

Thanks, Rick

A few companion pieces for this t216 discussion

<a href="http://s69.photobucket.com/user/rman444/media/companion%20pieces/T%20Cards/T216%20Peoples/kottonsign.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/rman444/companion%20pieces/T%20Cards/T216%20Peoples/kottonsign.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo kottonsign.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s69.photobucket.com/user/rman444/media/companion%20pieces/T%20Cards/T216%20Peoples/minosign.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/rman444/companion%20pieces/T%20Cards/T216%20Peoples/minosign.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo minosign.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s69.photobucket.com/user/rman444/media/companion%20pieces/T%20Cards/T216%20Peoples/ftp002.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/rman444/companion%20pieces/T%20Cards/T216%20Peoples/ftp002.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo ftp002.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s69.photobucket.com/user/rman444/media/companion%20pieces/T%20Cards/T216%20Peoples/peoplesletter-1.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/rman444/companion%20pieces/T%20Cards/T216%20Peoples/peoplesletter-1.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo peoplesletter-1.jpg"></a>

Ed, in my opinion the blue crofts toughness is highly variable depending on the player. A couple years ago I tried to track down proof that all cards on the checklist exist. I still have 11 cards I have not been able to find an image for or any record of one being sold. I'm not saying those cards do not exist, just that I could not find any proof of them. Others, like Jennings, seem fairly abundant. In general, the blue backs are harder than black, but not quite as difficult as Cocoa, Nadja, or E105.

Here's a link to a thread I created a few years ago to track most of the harder e92. E92 Difficult Backs

Reviving this Great Thread - Lets see those E92 back runs
 

What a great thread! Jobu, thanks for turning me onto it. The knowledge on this Board is amazing. Ed, thanks for starting the thread. Steve, this info on the T216 backs is awesome and now convinces me that a Wagner throwing VE exists (or was at least produced) and that I need multiple Kotton backs for a complete run. Pete, the lists of "E92" backs by player is very helpful. Val, that Jennings run is amazing.

For the past few months I have been aiming at a Wagner throwing back run (glutton for punishment; next I think I may work on an E94 Wagner color run) It started with a Blue Crofts, than a Cocoa, and once I picked up the E106, I thought I may have a chance. I have tried to keep it on the down low, but now I need the most difficult ones and I will take all the help I can get, so cat is out of the bag. Below is my Wagner throwing back run so far (could not include the T216 fronts bc exceeded my limit) -- please let me know if anyone knows where I can get one not shown below.

And while we are at it -- lets so those E92 back runs