Originally Posted by Hankphenom (Post 1502978)

I'm amazed at how little attention on this thread has been directed at the list itself and its implications. I would think there would have been more discussion about:

1) Just how widespread shill bidding seems to have been by consignors. Name after name, many of them well-known, who appear to have had shill bidders driving up the prices of their items, resulting in substantial losses for the winning bidders, the list of whom reads like a who's who of the hobby. This raises several questions, including whether they were doing this in cahoots with Mastro to make sure they never had to actually buy back their own items or at least with a waiver of the buyer's premium if they did. Also, just how widespread was this strategy by major consignors in other auctions? If the practice was as routine as the Mastro list would suggest, losses to auction winners caused by shill bidding over the years undoubtedly totals many millions of dollars. And what are the legal and ethical implications for these consignors and their shills? Are there any, or will they continue to be able to pursue this strategy of inflating the proceeds from their items without any recourse or increased scrutiny?
2) The conspicuous silence, with the notable exception of Kevin Keating, from any of the many notable hobby figures who have been outed as either participating consignors or their shill bidders. Surely, word has gotten around by now of the publication on Net54 of the list. Where are the full-throated defenses, or even just attempts at explanation, from those whose reputations have been brought into question by their appearance on it? Instead, crickets.
3) Similarly, where are the other auction houses, coming on to assure us that the practices outlined in Exhibit E, resulting in losses for bidders in the hundreds of thousands from just the few auctions uncovered, has not happened and could never happen to the winners in their auctions? Seems to me there's a lot at stake for them as to how collectors and dealers perceive the degree of fairness of participating in their auctions. Again, crickets.

These are just a few of the questions the publication of this information brings to mind. Maybe it's just too much to absorb all at once, and I'm also not sure how much can be done to try to assure a more equitable playing field for us beleaguered collectors from here on, but at the least it should be worthy of continued discussion. We should be able to do better than just lumping the business and ethical side of the hobby in with the worst practices of lawyers and insurance companies and heaving a collective sigh of "what are you gonna do?"

Originally Posted by whitehse (Post 1503078)

Shill bidding
TPG re-submits for bumps
WIWAG
re-coloring
Creased card "adjustments"
well trusted people in the hobby now going to jail
and on and on

I have been in this hobby for 40+ years as a collector, dealer, card shop owner and now back to a collector. It is at the point where one cannot go to any message boards to talk about the great things this hobby has to offer without seeing hobby dirty laundry being aired out and collectors who I hold in high esteem being reduced to finger pointers and naysayers.

I, for one am done. Not done with collecting but done with reading whine and bitch-fest posts. I think it is time to just get back to enjoying the joys this hobby has to offer and leave this other crap behind. Life can suck and our hobbies are supposed to be an escape from the big plate of crap life dishes up. I cannot let this negative garbage ruin something that has brought me such joy over the years. Granted, I have not lost piles of money like others with these hobby schemes that have popped up but I never allowed myself to get to that point either. For me, its back to enjoying this hobby and the fun it has to offer and try to leave this negativity behind. Hopefully we can all get beyond this garbage and get back to why we are really here.

Originally Posted by Stonepony (Post 1503067)

If Heritage bids on and wins a lot. Who do they pay the 20% buyer premium to?
It seems the rest of us may be at a 20% disadvantage....among other problems.

Originally Posted by Stonepony (Post 1503067)

If Heritage bids on and wins a lot. Who do they pay the 20% buyer premium to?
It seems the rest of us may be at a 20% disadvantage....among other problems.

Originally Posted by h2oya311 (Post 1502993)

My guess is that most think that Al's (LOTG), Ryan's (Cubanbaseball), and Rhys's (RMY) auction houses don't have shill-bidding issues - I'm deducing this based on my experience with each and because at least Rhys and Ryan have come on here to chime in - but wouldn't it behoove you (and the bigger players) to come on here and flat out tell it like it is?

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Originally Posted by whitehse (Post 1503078)

I, for one am done. Not done with collecting but done with reading whine and bitch-fest posts. I think it is time to just get back to enjoying the joys this hobby has to offer and leave this other crap behind. Life can suck and our hobbies are supposed to be an escape from the big plate of crap life dishes up. I cannot let this negative garbage ruin something that has brought me such joy over the years. Granted, I have not lost piles of money like others with these hobby schemes that have popped up but I never allowed myself to get to that point either. For me, its back to enjoying this hobby and the fun it has to offer and try to leave this negativity behind. Hopefully we can all get beyond this garbage and get back to why we are really here.