duplicate …

Then WGN was cheap, too. I have seen this particular pennant at least 3 times with a pieced-together or "split" spine.

Here's an alleged Epstein split spine for you. Interesting technique on this one. They didn't worry about smooth flush edges. They just overlaid the pointy longer piece over the shorter one and stitched away.

You're spot on for the time frame of the lower kicker pennant. Pretty easy to differentiate the ones from the 1940s from the ones from the 1960s, such as the Raiders you mention. The 1940s version have little blob flags and not much detail to the stadium. Also, many of the teams you find are defunct and existed for a very short time in the 40s or early 50s. Whereas the 60s version has proper flags and fans in the stands (Rams pennant below).

I believe these three to be from the same company, one that we have yet to identify.

Epstein seems to provide a major clue in solving the mystery of the stiff arm (Heisman) pennants but I'm a little dubious on the idea that they were the only ones making them. As Kyle said, they used very generic artwork but there is significant variation in these pennants. It's possible their "art work" evolved over the years (with the Wilburforce below likely their first ever attempt at depicting a football player) but some of the differentiation seems very arbitrary...like something a competitor might add to avoid using a direct copy. Also interesting to note, the Florida State pennant below is 3/4 size which is very atypical for these. The variations below were all found in about 5 minutes of searching through my website. I'm sure I could find more.

That blue NY Giants is bad, in a funny way.

Does the ad that Oooribay posted suggest that these (at least some) were made by AMCO Emblem? An Ohio State runner pennant is right in the ad (although the stiff arm is going in the opposite direction).

I know this has been mentioned before….but we gotta do a pennant book!

I’m sure many of you are familiar with Paul Muchinsky’s pinback book. For me, it’s the gold standard. I’m very much a “pin guy,” too, and Paul’s book is a treasure. He told me a) it was a pain in the ass to produce and b) it was a money loser. But, man, the information you guys have come up with is unbelievable. I wish Paul was still around so I could pick his brain on the book publishing process. I haven’t contributed all that much to the pennant research…but I am, and always will be, the OP of this here, high quality thread. :p

I highly value all of you….my obsessive pennant (gonfalon) brothers!

Hey, Rob - did you notice in the print ad I posted this afternoon that the AMCO FB player is stiff arming in the other direction? How common or uncommon is that?

Yes…Great find Rob. I’d say not common at all. The only thing that comes to mind is this style which is pretty rare and seemed to focus on a few mid west colleges…Tulsa, Kansas, etc.

That definitely caught my eye initially but why would they show it wrong in the ad? Also, the ad is for mini pennants (11"). I've never seen a stiff arm mini. The picture of the Tulsa pennant I shared does resemble the pennant in the ad, however is full size and I'd guess from the 1960s (though sans helmet) and not 1938.

And is that 3.5 cents per pennant? Even for a mini, that's a bargain.

The “largest, bushiest, genuine fur fox tails” were going for a nickel. :p

Gary, I added a page to my Sandy Koufax memorabilia website with photos of my Dodger pennants. There may be 1 or 2 you don't have yet in your catalog. LMK if you need better pictures of any.

Rick

As usual, I may be somewhat confused...

My first sliding runner pic is definitely an Epstein. Second pic as well? And isn't the 3rd, some other maker entirely?

Yes, yes, probably no

My guess is that you will see a distinct stitch on the back of the bottom pennant compared to the other two. Also the middle pennant has the nearly identical banner graphic as the Dodgers pennant pictured above

So, you mean yes, Epstein; yes, Epstein and probably not Epstein? I only ask because I had asked if the third was a different maker and you said “probably no.”

I'm still thinking they may all be AMCO. As the ad says, they had a "painted pennant division." Sounds impressive and high volume. Epstein, on the other hand, had to share building space. On the other other hand, the sewn in Epstein label seems to suggest that Epstein was the maker (as opposed to middleman).

I believe that there are a few baseball pennants with an AMCO mark, correct? Maybe Dodgers and Yankees?

My bad. I think the top two are definitely the same maker - Epstein - and the third is almost definitely a different maker.

Top has all the characteristics of WGN. Tassels, strip, spray painting (or whatever).

Bottom … is Epstein. Almost certain. Almost

Wait….what? Anyone (at least I) would think those were the same maker.

Wait, can we go back to Mr. Epstein's alleged legal troubles?

As I read this, the defendant/petitioner/appellant was a guy called William B. Stayback--not Epstein. Mr. Stayback was convicted for filing false tax returns for his business, which apparently functioned under a multitude of different names; none of which were called Epstein Novelty Co.

It looks like Stayback did business with Epstein; perhaps he supplied them with raw materials for the latter's production needs. It was income from these sales to Epstein (and others) that this Stayback fellow failed to report as income; and, apparently, went to prison for....

I just want to defend my man Epstein from any further libel by this thread, is all ;)

He's still guilty of being a tightwad. Greg has proven that beyond a reasonable doubt.

I retract my judgemental statement, and owe the great Epstein an apology. Epstein was a mensch!

You're right: I do believe the "left footed punter" artwork to be associated with Trench. Similarly, I attribute the "moon-lit batter" artwork to be by Trench. There may be no consensus among this thread as to who made them; but, they were both 26" long and undoubtedly by the same maker, as the two Brooklyn Dodger pennants below illustrate....

Around the same time that these two graphics/series were being produced, late 1940s/early 1950s, a third series surfaced. It too consisted largely of 26" long pennants. It was the "insert ballpark name" series, for lack of a better name. It too was by the same maker, as these New York Yankees pennants illustrate....

All three series involved 26" long, 3/4 size pennants. More importantly, all were made by the same company. Further, the "insert ballpark name" series represented a really cutting edge pennant for its day. Look at how many colors this maker used! Four colors? Two pairs of tassels? Who else was making pennants that nice by 1950? Who else (save maybe Epstein) had this big of market share by 1950? That distinctive serif letter font--who else relied on that as heavily as Trench throughout the 1940s and 50s?

There really isn't anyone else ... is there?

Still not convinced? Look at these two Eagles pennants (courtesy of fballguy's / feltfootball.com).... There's your left footed punter; and, underneath him there's a companion pennant from the same maker bearing yet another graphic associated with Trench.

Look, it may not be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but, for me, all signs point to Buffalo, NY on this one. Which means, all three of the pennants Greg identified in post #7205, with that kooky letter font, are also, in my opinion, by Trench.

This shouldn't surprise us: they were a really big, successful company.

Well, you've convinced me.

Any additional thoughts about AMCO Emblem as the maker of the football runner pennants? Given their ad and the painted pennants "division" of their business?

Found a picture of this Ohio State pennant. Definitely a lot closer to the one depicted in Rob's ad. This one is full size however.

I don't think I have ever seen any of the runner style pennants (using any runner graphic.... of the many out there) in an 11.5 inch size. Have you? Makes that ad rather strange.

Never. Maybe they were made of disappearing felt. :eek:

Very interesting how you showed the progression and interchange of fonts and graphics. I know I’ve asked, but I’ll ask again….do you think this is Trench as well or did someone steal the “moon-lit batter”?

Counter argument:

If the “insert ballpark name” pennant was made by Trench, then Trench made the top two pennants pictured below in the same year for the same team. They share nothing in common. Not the texture of the felt, the spine, the stitch, the graphics, etc. all very different. The middle two share almost everything in common and seem obvious to be from the same company. ‘51 Cinderella Boys Giants is also a match and has a very different scroll graphic than what Trench uses. Bottom is Trench.

All are full-size.

I dunno, those top two look similar to me.... Same serif letter font used. Both have tassels. Both are polychromatic. Obviously, they're different styles/sizes, but there's nothing inconsistent about them. (I'm not convinced that stitching characteristics are a reliable indicator of a pennant's origin.)

I think by 1950 the "insert ballpark name" series was rather tired and being phased out. It had enjoyed a good run. Scroll pennants were the new fad, and Trench (along with others) went all-in on them. Same with full size pennants. These two 1950 pennants simply illustrate that transition point, for me.

Why wouldn't Trench (or whoever you think made these) make more than one NL champs pennant for a team? This enabled them to offer both a 3/4 and a full size pennant, presumably at different prices. That makes perfect business sense to me.

Regarding materials used, we also know that Trench was an innovative company, and they certainly experimented with new production techniques and materials throughout the 1950s. Sometimes they used 100% wool felt; mostly they used a wool/rayon blend; and they even tried that flannel-like cloth material for a time, too. So, for me, if the materials truly differed, this may explain why.

I agree that the bottom one is by Trench. The third one, however, I believe is by AMCO. (I also believe that AMCO is the maker of the double-wide scroll pennant you referenced. I'll have more to say about that later on Pennant Fever when I cover them.)

FWIW, I love that bottom St. Louis Browns pennant!

Probably?? That's a tough one. Sure, it's the same batter artwork; but super-imposed on a rendering of Candlestick? And, those colors?? Doesn't look like anything else Trench did around 1962 but ... who knows?

1962 was the the year Tom Storm joined his father at Trench and assumed a role in running the company. He told me he was all about trying new production methods aimed at lowering their costs ... some that worked ... others that failed.

If Trench made this, it could have been one of their little experiments....

...Or, the artwork was just stolen by a rival maker and inserted into a new design?

Marc: AMCO's legal/corporate name was "AMCO Athletic Apparel Corp." as of 1947. I'm still researching them, but I can tell you that pennants were only a portion of their business. They specialized in apparel, as their name suggests, namely baseball and football uniforms. Hence the "painted pennant division" verbiage referenced on their 1938 ad.

They must've put that in there because they wanted their customers to know they made more than uniforms?

1954 Indians … top three are undeniably Trench. (They made 3-4 more designs too.)

The fourth? Seems to me same maker as the “insert stadium” 1950 Phillies Whiz Kids and Browns below it; identical block letter font, tassels, etc.They also are distinguished by a rough screen print, that Domer identified as a product of the screen itself. I have no obvious Trenches that look/feel like this but all of mine with the same font have it.

These appear to be Epstein football pennants sans runner

Agreed. I started a sort of catalog of the info in this thread. You can get is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nAV...usp=share_link

It's certainly not a book but a lot of the info is there.

I now have 1,614 pennants (and variations) detailed. I've started to add links to known auctions/sales too.

And here's a few new arrivals this week The Red Sox is a 1949 phantom AL Champions pennant. Any ideas about who made it?

Cool pennants, Gary, especially the Colts. See post 7205 above for pennants similar to the Red Sox.

Funny thing is, they were the Colt 45’s, not the Colts 45. Those quality control issues tickle me.

In other news my ugly Phillies pennant just had an ugly baby. 0.25 ounces, 8 inches. The father is believed to be the gentleman below.

I’ll add that in fairness to Ad Flag (whom I **** on quite a bit) I no longer think this monstrosity was made by them. It appears to be WGN. Which saddens me. Sex predator bum, however, is 100% AF.

Sex Predator
 

Are you sure Greg that it was made by WGN? Mine says ADFLAG.

The Phillies? Interesting. I stand corrected. Can you post a pic?

Just found

Very nice! I don’t keep track of Indians pennants but that style seems pretty unique. Get your iron warmed up. :p

Cool Indians pennant!

Can you add any insight, Professor?

I've come across another variant of this pennant in red and yellow before. I'd love to know more about it.

Always liked that Indians pennant. Usually don’t have the feather still attached. Good colors too

Wgn
 

No. I was referring to the Sex Predator Brooklyn felt.

Oh that’s definitely Ad Flag. Phillies is WGN.

I feel … betrayed

[emoji23] what a tease

This one is so beat up, it's almost cool again.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12577550626...mis&media=COPY

It's like an abstract art pennant. Almost like a stained glass effect on the graphics, yet the cloth material has held up pretty well. Very cool for a "beater".

I've seen pennants looks like that after someone tried to clean them in a washing machine. That's my guess about what happened with that one.

Hey, gurus….check the “Anybody collect pins?” thread.

The pennant pinned to the dude’s chest? Really wild. Never saw that before.

Yeah. Is it a pinned on pennant or is it a sweater? :confused:

Looks to me like it's stitched/embroidered on to the sweater.

I believe I have a Winning Streak Prototype pennant. Note the back where the barcode is supposed to be, it just says "barcode". I haven't found another one like it. It measures 6 x 15 inches. Any help with a value would be appreciated.
Thank you in advance!

No idea, unfortunately. Maybe $25?

Thank you for your response. I know that you're very knowledgeable about pennants but that estimate seems kind of low to me. I don't think they ever produced pennants like this for retail sale.

I’m guessing that the resale merchant was to put a barcode sticker over the blank box. That’s what it looks like on another similar WS pennant that was sold at the Red Sox stadium store. But this being a modern pennant, even with what you claim renders it scarce, the question is how many collectors out there care about it enough to affect its value. My guess is few if any. Also I just noticed that this is a smaller pennant so I think $25 might be too high. If I’m mistaken I would certainly welcome any correction from the others.

I see your point and I appreciate your reply. I wasn't saying that you were mistaken, I just imagined it being worth a lot more. You're right about it not being that much more valuable to most collectors though. It is a modern pennant (I've had it for 12-13 years) and it doesn't have the appeal like vintage pennants do.

I like the Winning Streak pennants and have 8-10 full size ones for the SF Giants. I don’t think the smaller ones have much value. Hell, the bigger ones aren’t valuable. That said, if this is indeed a prototype there might be a die hard Red Sox collector who would want it.

Here's a similar 15" pennant for $9.99 or Best Offer....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/125276073222


Here's one with the Bar Code Sticker placed over the spot that says "Bar Code". It is not a prototype... just a marker indicating where the retailer should price the item...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/39227465019...Cclp%3A2047675

I picked up an upgrade of this pennant. My other one had magic marker on it and a very funky, re-cut tip...but it did have tassels. This one clearly had its tassels cut off. Why do you all figure people did this? Tassels got trashed? People didn't like the tassels flopping, if the pennant was on the wall?

Well I would think that the tassels were damaged and the seller amputated them completely so that it might appear that it was made that way (without tassels). If we weren’t avid collectors, would we have any idea that this isn’t as it was originally?

I didn’t grow up buying pennants made with tassels, if I did there would be no way they’d still be intact. I still have my “originals” and they look like they endured a nuclear attack, with all the times I pulled them off and on my bedroom wall.

Cool pennant, very bright …

Congrats on the upgrade! That's a beauty, Rob.

Another reason the tassels may have been removed is for symmetry and overall appearance. I personally would rather have a pennant with both sets of tassels missing than just one set. My eyes are immediately drawn to the asymmetry if just one set of tassels is present. So I prefer the cleaner look of no tassels at all, and have been guilty of performing a "tasselectomy" or two. ;)

I can’t believe YOU would do that. :eek:

I may perform a reverse “tasselectomy” on this one. :p

I have done that too, but just a couple of times, and on cheaper pennants!

I can deal with missing bottom tassels. But missing uppers with intact bottoms? NOOOOOOOO!

The basic tassel rule 4 > 0 > 2

1960s tassels are more trouble than they're worth. If you have 4 nice ones great. But if even one gets that creased, broken, limp, dangly look it changes the entire aesthetic of the pennant. Then there's the super brittle, egg shell tassels that you could probably disintegrate just by looking at too long.

They make 60s pennants harder to store too because you need larger bins. Pre-60 tassels are soft and durable and can be tucked or bunched. With the 60s, I prefer to iron them flat and then agonize about anything touching them. I just did my annual pennant sort/audit and had one casualty. The horror of picking up a stack of pennants and seeing a chunk of red tassel on the floor left behind.

What you just so eloquently described has taken at least a year off my life. The bins are always about an inch short, to accommodate these breakable tassels. The guy who sold Trench on the cheaper tassels should be inducted into a Collector’s Hall of Shame.

When I was selling on eBay, I sold a 1967 All Star Game pennant for a pretty decent price. But one of those “crispy” tassels broke off in transit. The buyer was pissed and we settled on 60% of the original sales price.

Took a big hit on that one. The tassels might as well have been made from Lays Potato Chips… same durability and texture.

I glad….and surprised….you guys think tassels are “take ‘em or leave ‘em.” I wish my recent pickup had them. The seller was a great guy and took my best offer but he said he didn’t know if the tassels were missing or if the pennant never had them. With my pennant in hand, it’s pretty damn obvious it used to have tassels. And this is a seller who deals nearly exclusively in sports memorabilia. :mad:

Where do 3 and 1 fit into the algorithm? :p

Kyle turned me onto this...my Alma Mater...Ohio U....aka Harvard on the Hocking.

The pennant is not great but the history is cool. For not the first time, I should have left well enough alone but did not. Untying the tassles opened a big can of worms. I need to get this thing under plexiglass and never f**k with it again. I think I will display it with what's left of the tassels folded over.

With 5 and 6

I might be tempted to make the Giants a 4.

^^^ and Greg….I meant to ask what your “solutions” were for oversized (e.g. your Athletics) pennants. I seem to remember poster sized toploaders and/or some heavy vinyl you bought. I don’t want to go through pages and pages of HPG to find your posts. I also seem to remember Mark said the frames meant to hold (3) 8x10 photos would work. If need be, I’d cut “windows” on the back side to show the labels.