The renderings of tar pits I've seen typically have a Woolly Mammoth stuck in it..with a Saber Toothed Tiger licking his chops nearby and Pterodactyl hovering above.

Or a vulture with a Woolly Rhinoceros.

This would look sweet on a Dodgers pennant...or a Yankees.

The funniest thing about the Dodgers pennant may be that they decided to write Yankee Stadium on it. Too funny. Also, as a California native, it's hard to see citrus fruit in that image. I see Thanksgiving squash.

NFL Game of the week, Week 11, 1963. The great Tom Brookshier with two great pennants. But it looks like they ripped off the tassels!!!

Gotta be an Ad Flag ...

About a month ago, two of these orange Giants pennants sold on ebay (about 5 minutes after being listed). The black version of this pennant is very common, but the Orange is tough. I have one, but it has a really funny cut and I have been looking for another. I contacted a few people to see if they bought them, but everyone said no.

A few days before Xmas, one shows up at my door in the mail out of nowhere. It turns out that my sister had been looking to buy me a pennant for xmas and bought a Santa Clara pennant through ebay from pennantdynasty (Matt). She was having it shipped to me. When Matt saw where the pennant was going, he told her that I already had the Santa Clara pennant and that I'd much rather have this Giants pennant (that I has just emailed him about). So, thanks to Matt and my sister for getting in to me.

Cool story, Marc, and nice pennant! Matt has been helpful to me with regards to tracking down minis for my project of filling in the gaps on my walls, even reached out to another dealer on my behalf. He’s one of the good ones.

Yes.... props to Matt Z. for doing this kind of thing continuously. Definitely one of the good guys in the hobby. :)

Happy New Year!

Do you actually own this pennant, Rick? It's so ugly it's beautiful! :p

Super rare?

Yes Rob, I own that pennant. I wouldn't say it is super rare (there are 2 on ebay right now), but they always have condition issues, especially heavy fading and tip issues. Its made out of a heavy "cloth" fabric, and the tip is usually either missing or fraying. Mine is about as nice as I have seen regarding color, but the tip has some fraying.

And I agree, it is ugly and beautiful at the same time. Just wish the team photo didn't cover up the tourist destinations.

Attachment 433645

A little hockey
 

OHA’s Ottawa 67’s were born the same year as me. Plain-Jane style, but I haven’t seen it before and looks to be a good candidate for a clean up. 22 inches.

If it was mine, I would probably ruin its value by trimming the photo’s L and R borders and moving the photo as far right as possible. I’m dumb, that way. :p

Hey Chris, if this is cloth ... likely yes. Retro Clean usually does the trick although you will want to test it with a q-tip to see if ink runs. 1960s cloth pennants can usually be turned pure white with maybe a bit of a touch up with a much-watered down bleach solution if the spine runs. Always good to soak with a dowel running through it. If it’s cottony felt and older, it might be tougher. Cool pennant!

Interesting addition, with three top tassels. It joins my phantom version (in red). Interesting the pennants are exactly the same except that the word “Champions” is slightly different. So it’s not just the missing “World”. ... I’ve seen two versions like this in 1958 Braves and my 1950 Phillies just says “Champions”.

Great looking pennant actually, love the blue cloth when it keeps its color. I wonder what company made these, the ‘63 Mets is similar with a stapled picture instead of glued from behind.

Question: Does anyone know of any Dodgers scroll pennants of this design besides 1949, 1952, 1955? I know there’s a ‘50 that looks like the Cinderella Boys Giants pennant, but I’m thinking Trench ..

Damn, Eagle Eye! The pandemic hasn’t affected your vision!

Thanks Greg!

Rob, I think we are in trouble when Giant and Dodger fans have the same thought. Must be a new year. The painted-on window for a photo measures 5 x 7, and there are several team color postcards that could fit there perfectly. The photo that is pasted on has actually lifted off on the left edge already, and I think the rest would come off fairly easily without much if any paint loss. Any damage to the rest of the pennant from removing the b/w photo would be covered by attaching the new photo. I was thinking I could try a hair dryer to get the photo's glue to release from the pennant.

Probably would devalue the pennant but would look soooo much better. I resist because 1) I like to leave these pennants as they were manufactured, 2) I would hate to mess the pennant up , and my track record messing with these isn't very good, and 3) I can hear Kyle's eyes rolling at the very thought.

Wow! Greg has the eyes of an eagle and you have the ears of my dogs when I open a bag of chips!

You could always modify it for display but still hang on to the original pic....

Wait! Do I hear eyes rolling? :p

I wouldn't mess up that more or less pristine copy of the Dodgers pennant. But I might mess around with a beater if I could get one for the right price.

I'm 90% sure it's by Trench. They made other Dodger pennants, including photo pennants, in the early 1960s featuring their mark and the identical "LOS ANGELES" script.

I believe Trench also made travel pennants featuring the same "Scenes of Los Angeles" artwork during that era; and travel pennants in general for a host of different cities.

I suspect Trench planned to cut the window out and glue the photo from the reverse side; however, they just ran out of time. Stapling it to the front side must've been easier; however, as noted earlier, this modification left the photo obscuring much of the artwork.

Are my eyes that loud?? :)

This poses an interesting ethical question for the thread: If a pennant maker screwed up something during the manufacturing process, and you can fix it; and, actually succeed in enhancing the look of the pennant ... should you??

For example ... re-sewing faulty stitching caused by a lazy seamstress; removing paint splatter or color bleed caused by a hasty screen printer; re-securing a loose tassel or photo; or sharpening a blunt tip that was never sharp to begin with.

Discuss.

Having raised 2 daughters, I can guarantee that you can certainly hear eyes rolling:D.

I think it depends, only with respect to disclosure if you have to resell. Cleaning dirt of a pennant? That’s fine IMO. Carefully removing paint splatter? That, too. But trimming to make a pointy tip ... yeah that’s a no-no. Now I will say that the dreaded Ad Flags are notorious for wavy cuts, and while I generally avoid Ad Flags I do have a Colt 45s that looked like it was originally cut by an 8 year old with his art class scissors. And if anything the imperfections made it bigger. A straight edge and an exacto knife fixed it right up.

Loose tassels? No. Loose pictures? Yes. Elmers clear glue stick.

These pennants are awesome, Greg. And the ‘champions’ difference is so subtle, it’s amazing anybody would notice it. Any theories out there on the minor difference?

Thanks Erik. No idea. I would have figured, maybe they made a screen with just champions, and then revised it later. But they used two different screens, even though the word is positioned for an easy revision.

Blunt, torn or missing tip is my #1 pennant pet peeve. I just can't look past it unless we're talking about a pennant I may never see again. It's the first thing I look at when deciding to buy and I've bought plenty over the years that looked fine in the pics but once in hand, I could tell it had been sharpened. Never once was it disclosed and in fairness, many sellers wouldn't even know what to look for. It's also very hard to account for what every owner of a 70+ year old pennant did with it. There is no universally accepted pennant grading system. Most people judge a pennant on rarity and eye appeal. Though I will say, I've bought pennants from sellers who I know know better and yet it still wasn't disclosed.

Cleaning or removing stains is fine in my book. When you sell a car, do you disclose every scratch you buffed out?

As far as tassels and pictures...I don't see how you can differentiate one from the other. Why would it be ok to re-glue a loose picture, but not be ok to use a drop of fabric glue to secure a loose tassel?

As an aside, what techniques do you guys use for cleaning pennants? I'm too scared to clean a felt pennant because I think I'd ruin it. I have a 60s Tigers pennant that doesn't look anything close to the white it's meant to be. I'd love to give it a bit of a clean.

As previously mentioned, I thought the rendering on the left above Chinatown was the Grauman's Chinese Theatre, based upon only being able to see a sliver of the artwork not covered up by the oversized photo. But this thread made me rethink this, and because I was able to lift up the left side of the photo, I was able to determine that the building is actually City Hall, which back in 1963, was one of the few "skyscrapers" in LA.

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Many of us use bleach. Yes, bleach. :eek:

If you post a picture of your Tigers pennant, some of us could probably give you pointers. Certain inks seem to be not affected by bleach, while others are a recipe for disaster.

Thanks for the help. Here's a photo of the Tigers pennant. I'm also waiting on this Yankees Team Photo pennant to be delivered. I think it's a 1963 version. It's in even more need of a good clean.

Not sure I would risk bleaching that Tigers Pennant. It's just not that bad, and the orange paint could conceivably bleed. Maybe Rob/Rob knows better, but I would err on the side of safety.

As for the Yankees... you'd need to carefully remove and re-apply the photo after bleaching. That one might be worth a try, as it's looking pretty rough, and is perhaps worth the risk. Perhaps Rob/Rob can chime in about the potential of red paint bleeding on that one.

I am not really a fan of the alterations being discussed. I have done it on rare occasion, and always disclose exactly what was done (if selling). But even then, who's to know what gets disclosed after the pennant changes hands a few more times? Therein lies the problem...

Trimming of the tip to form a point is probably the most prevalent alteration with vintage pennants, and is usually quite easy to detect if you know what to look for.

Cleaning a pennant is fine. Cannot even count how many times I've used scotch tape to lift off excess dust, debris, and especially pet hair. I think 75% of the pennants I've recently acquired have cat or dog hair inter-woven into the felt. If you have no propensity towards OCD, then nevermind and carry on. :o

Hey Gary - what follows are pictures of some bleach successes and one major disaster (the only one I've had). Two pennants had orange ink and were fine. The 1962 pennant has magic marker on it and a terrible tip but I don't think I've seen another in white. Two had blue and they were also fine. The red was a disaster. I drew the graphics back in with a sharpie and gave the damn thing away.

I always tape off the spine and hang them vertically on my shower wall. Spray with bleach and saturate with clean water very shortly after (a matter of seconds). Some other guys use 20%, 40% or 60% bleach to water for the initial spray. I have always used straight bleach but a watered down solution is probably a good idea.

If it were me, I'd try the Tigers pennant because I've done OK with orange. I think the red ink on the Yankees would rule it out. It's too bad because that pennant could really use a good cleaning! :p

The only thing I'll add to the pennant alteration discussion is that one reason to collect pennants is for display. Cleaning them up can make them display better. I feel like it is ok to try to improve one that is in terrible shape anyway (unless is very rare, historically important, very valuable). If they are really dirty, they just don't look good on the wall.

But I've also learned that it can be very hard to make them look better. I think I've clearly improved (for display) maybe 2 of the 5 that I've tried to clean. I probably ruined one. And the other two ended up with improvement in one area, but some equal damage/color bleeding in another.

I would probably leave the Tigers pennant alone, but maybe try to clean the Yankees (It's pretty dirty). You just have to know that it might be a total loss (see Rob's red Giants batter).

As for Kyle's original question, tough call. I think I'm ok with a disclosed alteration that can be reversed (e.g., replace a missing tassel), but info about those alterations probably gets lost over time, which is a problem.

Thanks guys.

Well, what I lack in patience - I make up for in foolishness. :)

I found the posts earlier in this thread about cleaning pennants and decided to give it a go because the Tigers pennant is fairly cheap and I wanted to practice. I'm pretty pleased with the result.

What may not have been obvious from the "before" photo was some pretty bad discoloration above the tiger and at the tip.

I covered the spine and laid the pennant flat in the bath and then sprayed the bleach. Then I ran it under the faucet to rinse it off. I think next time, I'll tape it on the shower wall like Rob suggests. The black ink ran a little bit, but as others mentioned I used copious amounts of water and that rinsed off with no problem.

I think I've now achieved blissful over-confidence so I'll probably gamble with the Yankees pennant. The photo on the pennant looks to be fastened with staples so I don't think it will be too tough to get if off for cleaning.

Looks like a huge improvement, to me. Good job!

I'll cross my fingers for the Yankees pennant but I'm a little fearful.

I agree, the Tigers pennant looks good.

Nice work! Especially for a first attempt.

Definitely improved the appearance. One thing I have noticed (from the few times I've used bleach) is that it can "thin" the felt. It can break down the fibers and compromise the felt, with varying degrees of severity. Sometimes it's not even noticeable, but other times it's a definite bummer.

So if you do attempt the Yankees, please let us see the "after" photos, and let us know how it came out. Taping it vertically to the shower wall and prompt rinsing is definitely the way to go.

Giants
 

Hi All,
So I was luckily able to pick up this one albeit with a missing 1/2 inch of the spine. It was hanging for decades in a den and the pennant itself is in fantastic shape with great color. You can see what color of the spine should be where the thumbtack was removed. I didn't really want to mess with it but would you guys try the bleach solution on this spine? Or a little light soap and water?
Thanks!
-Andy

Nooooooooooooooooo! You don’t let bleach come within 100 yards of this beauty. The body of the pennant is in amazing shape with beautiful color. You don’t want to risk making that worse. If I’m you, that goes up in the wall as is, keep away from sunlight because it will fade, maybe even see if you can get UV protective sheets to put over the pennant holder. Incredibly nice pennant!

Amazing pickup Andy! Such an attractive and rare example...

Regarding the spine, I bet the spine would bleach very well, but given the value of the pennant, be sure to tape it off very carefully. You definitely don't want even a single drop of beach to touch that red felt. And I am not sure if bleach bleeding through to the reverse side is a further concern. Perhaps Rob has experience with this, and can chime in.

Another option is a spine "transplant". I have never done this, but know of a forum member here who has done it on occasion (with great results). It would involve using a "donor pennant" with a similar (if not identical) white spine. And a seamstress who can replicate the original stitching.

While I don't advocate for this, it would kill two birds with one stone... the soiled color and missing top portion. The lighter colored tack hole wouldn't bother me on its own at all... the missing top portion of the spine might. A transplant would definitely make the pennant look/display better, but you'd always know the pennant is not all-original.

For that reason, I am with Greg... leave it as-is.

Has anyone ever seen this pennant in full size? I’ve only seen it as a mini.

Giants...
 

Thanks for the feedback Mark and Greg! I was gonna play with it a little bit but am now going to let it be as it is.

This pennant has a very unique spine, it’s not felt and it’s not cloth. I don’t know how to explain it except to say it’s the same as on the 1955 and 1956 World Series pennants, the ones with the Brooklyn cap. Clearly the same (unknown) company, they also made pennants for the 1956 and 1958 NFL Championship games. It almost has a feel like canvas ... No question it would come up snow white... with very careful application (like with a dowel or plastic strip through the spine) it could maybe be improved. It’s just that near the threads, that’s where it gets shaky. The threads will likely get wet and they come in contact with the red. .... A spine transplant will look to a collector like a dog’s head on a cat, because the spine is so unique. Take comfort in knowing that, even with the issue in the upper corner, it is rare enough that it would be considered tolerable by many collectors. Good idea to just let it be. Thanks for sharing pic!

Nope, not me. By the looks of the spine and tassels it looks like it belongs to a series of late 30s mini pennants, most but not all have a player graphic. See pic, it looks like a match. Maybe not the exact same time period but looks like same maker. ... These minis in general were made in a larger size, but closer to 3/4, not full. At least I don’t think so.

That's a beauty and way too valuable and rare to mess with in my opinion. The discoloration of the spine doesn't even bother me. To me, this pennant falls into the category of those whose condition takes a back seat to rarity and overall, I think the condition of this one is great anyway. Great pick up!

Wow, what a pennant.

PLEASE don't try to "mess with it".

It's perfect as it is, and would be the high point of my collection if it were mine. Since we missed Christmas, you may be interested to know that my birthday is in April...

Doug "even without bleach, color me jealous" Goodman

ARRRRRRRRRGH!!!! One of my Holy Grails!!!! :mad:

I'd feel comfortable with a little light soap and water. It might help; it might not. If it were mine, I would probably opt for the "spine transplant."

Speaking of Holy Grails ... here’s mine. Hope to get it someday.

Coolest. Pennant. Ever.