This is an amazing pennant. I also have it, but have never seen another. Nice pick up

It's back...... Packers pennant
 

Decent description by Jon (for him anyway). Hard to tell much with his usual solo picture, but pretty nice job by someone compared to some of other the crafts class rejects I've seen out there. A guy in Canada sells pennants that look like children's art for a couple hundred bucks a pop. At least he did...I excluded him from my searches years ago.

You'd think, with all the effort to do a pretty good job in making this look almost passable, they would've take more care to use an authentic spine. I've seen this style of Packers pennant a hundred times. I think I have two of them. And I've never seen a spine on them that looked like that.

That's scary good for a repro, and a copout by Jonsstats, who surely knows better. "I WILL LET THE BIDDERS DECIDE EXACTLY WHAT THIS IS." In other words, "I have sold 87,000 items and bidders rely on my expertise, but in this case I'm claiming ignorance because it good enough to get substantial bidding." BS, that's all.

Are there other Yankees with this pennant? If not, why in the world Rizzuto? As good as he was, he was never more than the fourth or fifth best player on his teams. What's the year on this, do you think?

+1. Just be honest and forthright. Your reputation is worth far more than a few extra bucks.

Early 1950s. Perhaps they were honoring Rizzuto for something at Yankee Stadium on that particular day. It is legit, and I have seen a few over the years. That one looks like it came from Hunt Auctions' recent I/P event.

Granted, Rizzuto was never their biggest star, and no other specific Yankee players have surfaced. It's just one of those one-offs that seem to remain a mystery. The Tigers had a similar pennant that commemorates Johnny Groth, of all people... who is way more obscure than Rizzuto!

Co-signed. If something is not authentic or original, just say so.

Speaking of Groth … that weird 1960 WGN Pirates pennant with the misspellings and “Groth” instead of “Groat” just sold on eBay. The pennant you refer to is also WGN and Groat is from Chicago and his father was an electrotype salesman. May have done business with the company!

[QUOTE=Duluth Eskimo;2264584]https://www.ebay.com/itm/14466952974...0AAOSw7AJi69ig[/QUOTE
Actually, this is no repro and I shouldn't have referred to it as such. It's an out-and-out fake, intended to deceive, with cracked paint, wool, and all. Best fake pennant I've ever seen, wrong spine notwithstanding, and if whoever made this gets more active, it could prove disruptive and lead to the slabbing and grading of pennants.

There are not. At least that I’ve seen in almost 40 years. My guess would be 1950 or 51 following his MVP season. I’m glad to see there is another one out there. I thought it might have been a one off or few but fed as discussed. It appears to match the Harry Stevens style of many Yankees pennants from that era so maybe a few were made for a banquet or something. Either way, great pick up.

That was my thinking as well. I wondered if it was from an event like a banquet. I'd not seen another and when it came up for auction I remembered American Pickers...."the time to buy it is when you see it." :-)

Any ideas about which company produced it?

Personally I think it’s NY area mystery company. Here are two that I believe are from the same company, note the same gold streamer-like design on the ‘55 pennant. One theory is Trench - I think Domer might lean that way? - but the construction seems very different to me than known Trenches of the period. The graphics and artwork is also a vastly different style.

[QUOTE=Hankphenom;2264794]This pennant was originally sold by someone who had a similar fugazi Dallas Texans pennant, which I bought and returned. Same quality fake. The letters and graphic were cut out and glued - poorly - not even to the edges so you can see underneath. There is absolutely, positively no way that even a non-collector could hold this and conclude that it is anything but a homemade job.

[QUOTE=thetahat;2264843] Good to hear, as the picture made it look good. All the more reason Jonsstats has no business acting as if it might be real.

No doubt the Rizzuto is the same maker as the '55 World Series Pennant. I have seen the more common "Yankees" (not Rizzuto) version sporting the same exact fringe instead of tassels. I used to have one but stupidly let it go.

Yup, my opinion: the Rizzuto and the '55 WS pennant are by the same maker; and, I'm confident that maker is Trench :)

Mystery maker wasn't known for using tassels. Nor were they known for multi-colored graphics ... or team-specific artwork.

I was able to trade the first one for the one with the "waterfall" coming out of RF. Both are very rare. Thanks, bocca!

Marc also sold me this one at a good price. I have the same pennant but with no added color to the white graphics.

I’m seeing other differences in the stadium graphic. Like what appear to be bushes behind the first base stands area, at the base of the light tower. Could the “waterfall” just be an opening in uncompleted bleachers? I wonder if old Candlestick pics could help determine if one is older than the other.

Going to guess the one with the press box/scoreboard up on stilts is the older one.

I would agree.

It worked out well that Ooribay and I were both able to fill in missing pieces in our collections.

Reds pennant info request
 

Looking for a little more knowledge on this puppy. My pennant sense tells me this style is part of a series made for some or all teams and probably in the 40's but wanted to check with the experts ;)

Yup. I have seen that exact motif used for the White Sox, Yankees and perhaps a few others. Definitely 1940s, and rare to find a Reds version. Great score!

Thanks, Mark. I suspected that might be the case...

Never seen a Washington Senators/Nationals version and don't think they made one.

Here’s the Yankees version (not mine).

Thanks, Mike. Cool to see another team.

Anyone have any other teams to show from this style?

Close but no cigar...

Before and after pictures of my most recent pickup.

^^^^ Bleach? Oxyclean?

I started with warm water to to get the surface dirt off. Followed it up with a few rounds of Retro Clean to get the yellowing out. Thought about hitting it with bleach but decided to quit while I was ahead.

Nice pickup and a great job cleaning it.

Good call. I don’t think the orange would have handled bleach.

Read description. Thoughts?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/20410095230...oAAOSwgr5jLjrT

You hear a lot of 70 year olds use the term “legit” in their daily vernacular. Seems “legit” to me

To me, the "felt" looks more modern than 1958. If original to '58, it would be made of cloth or a softer felt. Looks like an early '70s re-strike to me.

That's a reasonable description, Greg. Trench made that pennant; and, they made a 1960 and 1961 photo pennant using the same "LOS / ANGELES" script with team photos bearing 1960 or '61 dates--all shot at the Coliseum. So, the story checks out. See below pennant. (source: Doug Goodman's spectacular collection.)

...But, if it was purchased at the ballpark in 1958, it didn't come from Dodger Stadium; rather, the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum where they played in those early days.

I didn't think it was from the 50's because I didn't think they were using the flying ball logo then, but as Domer pointed out to me it did appear on some pennants in Brooklyn in 1955. I see the flying ball logo, although somewhat different than the eBay pennant, does appear on LA novelty items in the 1960 mail order catalog, so who knows?

Rick

Attachment 535557

My earlier post was a joke. This pennant is from the 70’s

I’m glad you cleared that up…. because I was confused! :p

For the sake of bumping this thread....JR got a pretty healthy price for this:

A recent pickup to keep the thread going.

I've not seen this pennant in Blue and Red before. The graphics aren't awe inspiring but the condition is great and the price was ridiculously cheap.

Very nice Keezer pennant. Great shape, too!

Can you spot the red flag?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/22518833606...0AAOSwNOBjOgXz

I can’t….but, then again, I pay no attention to D**gers stuff. :cool:

Fake spine. Looking at the stitching....

A. The vertical stitches are way too small/close together for Trench

B. The horizontal stitching at top and bottom of spine does not allow for a stick to go through

Trench never sewed them like this (nor did anyone else that I'm aware of).

Yep. You got it. Also I’m not sure this is cloth. The printing looks different, as if it is rubberized so that it wouldn’t crack. I think this pennant was reproduced at some point and this is one of them.

Wow, that is scary good. Who in the world would have the capability to make something like this, and for what purpose? Would it be worth their while to make just one, and if there were more than one, wouldn't you experts have spotted them coming out on the market? On the other hand, M&N and others have put out some realistic repro/fantasy pennants, so I guess the technology is available. But I'm amazed someone could think they could get away with faking these and go to the trouble of doing it to make a few bucks. Of course, as we've seen in cards and autographs, where there's money to be made, anything's possible, so why not memorabilia, too?

Good questions and observations, Hank!

Looking at the first picture of the full pennant, I can definitely see some puckering and cracking of the scroll portion. I am not sure about the "rubberized" graphics theory, as a result. Plus, all of his other pennants for sale are authentic. I know there are reproductions of this pennant, but think this one is authentic with a replaced spine.

I have seen countless pennants where the body of the pennant is perfect, but the spine has multiple moth nips and holes. For some reason, the bugs seemed to favor the spine portion for their "meal".

To me, it makes the most sense that this pennant was nicely stored away for most of its life (which would explain the lack of wear), but that moths got to the spine. I think someone replaced the spine at some point, and the "seamstress" simply didn't properly replicate the original style of stitching.

College Basketball

Gorgeous!

The seller is a good guy, I have bought from him before. I think it’s a genuine mistake. These are very good repros. I’ve seen these before. Below are pics of the scroll on (a) authentic and (b) the one in question. There are clear differences. (I have three of these and the scrolls all match.) You can see it with “ALSTON, Mgr.” and the alignment of “NEWCOMBE and WALKER” for example. Mark, I see the puckering you see but I think that’s from the material bring felt and not thin smooth cloth. I don’t see any cracking.

So that doesn’t prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it isn’t circa 1955, just that it’s a different screen, and I’m not sure why there would be two different with the same names … just my opinion

Here are a couple other versions of the ebay pennant, note the similar stitching and the use of blue threading on the back (which should be red). The third link is to an authentic '55. Can also see a difference with respect to the placement of the year.

https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=88844

https://www.josportsinc.com/products...mpions-pennant

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16566251892...4AAOSwOY1jF3j1

I was inclined to agree with Mark's explanation: most likely, someone sewed a new replacement spine + tassels to a genuine '55 pennant. Why not? You've got a perfect, otherwise mint pennant that will sell for crazy money; but for some unsightly moth bites on the spine. Easy fix: swap out the spines. (Only us pennant nerds would notice!).

Sidenote: I always wondered why moths seemed to like spines and tassels over other parts. The reason is the spines + tassels were made with genuine wool even in the 1950s and 60s. That wasn't always true for the bodies, which were typically wool/rayon blends by the 1950s. So, if you were a moth, you wouldn't waste your time with the bodies unless it was a ca. 1910s pennant made from 100% wool.

Anyway, then I looked at the screen printed graphics and noted something that gave me pause. According to my research on Trench, and my conversations with Mr. Storm himself, these pennants were made a certain way. First they screen printed the graphics in white (called an underbase). Then, they applied all secondary and tertiary colors via an airbrush + blockout stencil.

I'm not sure I see evidence of this process/look on this '55 pennant.... The pink in the bum's shirt looks like it was printed using pink (not white) paint. We can even see evidence of the royal blue shining through it, because they used unleaded (contemporary) paint, which lacked the opacity that Trench's white leaded paints were known for. That's why both the white scroll and the pink shirt look a little blotchy.

Just an observation. I hope I'm wrong ... because it's a convincing reproduction and it would fool many a buyer.

Another thing that jumps out is that the black in Emmet’s derby and beard is jet black on the eBay pennant, the authentic versions like all with the bum have more a granite shade.

Also … you’ll love this … Emmet’s eyebrows are supposed to match his hair (gray). The eBay pennant has EK with black brows.

It has fooled many buyers, see the link to the one in the Leland’s auction.

The comparison clinches it, no doubt. Now the question is, why was it made? And that's where the scary part comes in: I hope we're not in for a generation of repros good enough to be floating around shows and auctions without question.

Good question. It’s not a Mitchell and Ness which usually leaves enough of a difference in the graphics to know it’s a repro. I think these were made to be passed off as real. As for repros to pass as “real”, yes they can fool the casual collector who wants a neat display for his favorite team, but I’d think that all of us here could tell by feel if not sight.

Of course it’s the casual collector who plays a significant role in determining value (or lack thereof) …

Yep... to have it in-hand would be tremendously helpful. Much tougher on a two dimensional screen. I couldn't initially see it on eBay, but hopefully would've noticed upon physical inspection.

The telltale signs you mentioned are undeniable, and I'm now with you, that the entire pennant is a convincing fake (made to deceive). In addition to the incorrect placement of "1955", the comma after "Alston" is too close to "Mgr."

These were not produced in large quantities like M &N. So who had the technology and the skills to pull this off, and why haven't we seen it with other teams' pennants? Hopefully we never will, as this is really criminal.

The seller is a good guy. I've bought many pennants from him and he seems to get quite rare ones too. The spine and tassels are obviously wrong, but I wouldn't have suspected anything off with the body, unless maybe I held it in hand.

That same graphic appears on a fairly highly coveted late 60's Lew Alcindor pennant. Used to sell for in excess of $200 but there was a recent find of 20 or so. Not sure if that had any impact on sale price. Whoever has them hasn't flooded the market with them so maybe not.

I see the 1955 Dodgers pennant is no longer available. Did it sell or was it pulled? :confused:

It was pulled within a couple of hours of when it was listed. I assumed it was for an off-eBay sale until I saw Greg's posting questioning its authenticity. So no way to know why it was pulled at this point.

Greg, are all these 1955 Brooklyn scroll pennants only made of cloth?

Rick

Rick, to the best of my knowledge they are all blue cloth. Never seen any different. The one that reads “World and National League Champs” is even harder to find. I can’t even find a picture of it. But it is glorious.

The ‘49 and ‘52 Dodger scroll pennants are felt and came in multi colors. Strangely, have never seen a ‘53 or ‘56 scroll pennant from either Bkln or NYY.

Thanks Greg, interesting info. I’m hoping to land a Brooklyn scroll pennant at some point. I do remember seeing a ‘55 with both nl and world champs on it, but it wasn’t in very good shape. Surprising that so few of them have ever surfaced given how momentous an event it was for Brooklyn.

Rick

This pennant has been sold as “genuine” for years. I have pointed this out to auction houses, eBay sellers, etc all to no avail. This pennant was made in the 80’s - 90’s, but I don’t have any details. The only thing that makes sense is a Mitchell & Ness from their earliest production. Mitchell & Ness made very high quality reproductions and sold them along with their jerseys in their catalogs. I used to have an account with them and would buy jerseys to get autographed. There are other pennants too (black 59 White Sox, etc) that get too passed off as authentic. They generally only reproduced very rare desirable pennants that most collectors could never find. You need to remember that the only place you could find pennants back in the day was at shows or antique shows. There were no auctions with photographs for the most part. We take for granted the 1000’s of pennants you scroll through on eBay every day. Anyways, this is a repro.

What years did Mitchell & Ness make pennants?

Being in Philly, I spent alot of time at M&N's store and also time with the owner. He always made his items with a difference from the original. On all of his jackets, sweaters, and jerseys there was always one extra button.

I do not know what he did with pennants but there is a difference

I got into collecting vintage pennants because of Mitchell and Ness. I had about 15-20 pennants from my childhood, bought at Phillies games, they were from the mid 70s to mid 80s. I always liked drawing the logos. Sometime around 1997 I noticed a Mitchell and Ness advertised Super Bowl weekend sale of 50% off items. They did this for a few years. I went in and saw their repro pennants and bought a bunch to decorate the newly renovated basement. In the old store, the owner had original pennants hanging on the walls. Some were nice, like the ‘49 Phillies Blue Jay roster pennant. “Not for sale” I was told. A year or so after that I discovered eBay and I bought a big pile of vintage at a flea market, sold off my repros at the Philly memorabilia show for cheap.

Mitchell and Ness pennants all seem to have designs and lettering with the same feel as the pennant itself. This ‘55 pennant looks like it was screened. I agree that it’s a repro but it seems like a different process than M&N.

Like Mark says, this was made to deceive. The creator made a point to match the traditional Trench font used in the names, and came really close but left enough of a difference to tell.

Also interesting about the 1955 Dodgers, it seems to be the only year of the 1940s-50s that Trench made their scroll pennants on cloth. Both ‘55 Bkyn and NYY. All the others are felt. All the different 1954 Indians and NYG and the 1957, 58 Braves. 1949 and 1952 Dodgers are felt. Some in the 1960s are cloth, with the scroll not being screened just the names, like this Redlegs pennant.

Anyone have a counterexample?

I’ve been pretty inactive of late on eBay but did pick these up recently. The 1969 Twins is part of the cool ASCO cloth set, I only had it in red. I like the way Minnesota is written, very retro. And I love the dated Trenches, especially from ordinary seasons. I never saw the ‘52 Tribe.

Great pickups, Greg!

I just got this. I don't usually care too much about color variations and I have plenty of "Giants on the Bridge" but for $35, delivered, what the hell? The tip is so sharp you could cut yourself. :p

I had my account before they got popular and you could still have athletes sign jerseys for the same price as any other item. I would say late 80’s to early 90’s forward. They were advertised in their catalog. I will have to look to see if I still have a catalog somewhere.

In regards to make up, some were different than vintage. Some were identical. I’m not going to argue about this, but I’ve been buying and selling vintage pennants and memorabilia since the 80’s. I’ve mistakingly bought them on eBay back in the day and sent back for return. They obviously aren’t made of the original pressed felt, rather a very soft more modern woven felt like material. They were very well produced just like their jerseys. They made high quality products. I’ve only seen baseball and no other sports. They specifically had the 1955 Dodgers scroll with the pink bum, but it was a brighter blue. That was probably the most popular back then because you couldn’t find nice Brooklyn pennants and the Brooklyn Dodgers were very collectible in those days. I still see these pennants offered for sale as original as well as listed in auctions.

Here are two that are commonly mistaken as original. These are listed as M&N on eBay right now. There is also someone trying to sell this 1969 version as real. You can see the stitching and piping, but both these are same as original. Obviously the 1969 Mets was only made on woven fabric and not felt.

Thanks, and that Giants is sweet. They should have put the Mullin Giant in the stadium pennant instead of the generic batter.

Here we go again

https://www.ebay.com/itm/22519272735...6X1YA&LH_BIN=1