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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>DD- I may be wrong, but I don't recall CC withdrawing any items.<br />How can you sell Rube Waddell cuts at $93 if you withdraw it? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>bill,<br /><br />I sent the Beatles scans this morning. Shelly got his, did you not? Let me know if not and I can resend in the morning. <br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Rich,<br />I am just thinking that if they are reading this forum, they may withdraw it. Forgeries are one thing. Having a dead person sign something is another. It seems to me that "opinion" is something that the so called forensic authenticators have on their side. There is no gray area for when George Archer died.<br /><br />Honestly, I hope it stays up. More ammo for whomever can have these guys put out of business.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>They can always claim it was "ghost signed". <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>The policy of this forum is, and has been since I took over 2 1/2 yrs ago, to not allow anonymous posts in controversial or very opinionated threads. It is still in the rules section today. While I can't force anyone that is anonymous to give me their contact info I can give out IP addresses which can usually be traced, delete anonymous posts that are against the rules, and ban folks for not adhering to the rules. With that being said if anyone wants any names or IP addresses you can email me or post here. I have 0 tolerance for anonymous posts in these types of threads plus it's against forum policy. I hope this explains my position. I have never changed my mind on it. best regards<br /><br />edited to add that I was asked to delete several posts which all had good names on them...I denied the request.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p><a href="http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=75425" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=75425</a><br /><br />There doesn't appear to be an authenticator for it. Were there any L of A's associated to it earlier?
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Someone call CC and ask them who certified the autograph of the dead guy.<br /><br /><a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/?action=view¤t=coachscorner.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/coachscorner.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>Here is there rule regarding returns, I believe this is a very new policy for them:<br /><br />"There will be NO returns on graded cards or Authenticated items. Ask questions regarding the items and look at close up scans before you bid! Any disputes on these must be taken up with graders or authenticators, not Coach's Corner."<br /><br />So if you buy an autograph item and 1, 2 or 3 other authenticators say it is not good you have to go back to Mr Morales or STAT and try to get your money back from them. WOW,, what a great rule, NOT. <br /><br />--<br /><br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>*
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>leon,<br /><br />Who asked you to delete current posts with good names? Was it a board member or current poster to this thread or one of the named authenticators or auction houses?
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>My guess is one of the later choices.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>The biggest joke in the SCD is to see a "15 year customer service award" in all the Coach's Corner ads. How can this be ? No complaints. This is false hope for novice collectors. How does an advertiser not get the customer service award ?<br /><br />I thought STAT Authentic would be a good company with Jeff and Ted. What went wrong ? Just trying to do something they are not expert in ?
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Ricky Y</b><p>Hmmm..I don't think they can sell the autograph of the dead person here in the US. But maybe they can at the sports memorabilia store in Ulan Bator. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Ricky Y
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>I think we have a better chance of hearing from Pedro Morales on this thread, than Chris Morales reappearing on here.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>Dan<br /><br />Who was dead before the 2006 Masters?<br /><br />Max<br />who plays better croquet than golf
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Randy Trierweiler</b><p>Max, George Archer died on September 25, 2005. <br />He then came back to the Master's in 2006 and autographed the flag. <br />Coach's corner somehow obtained this historic piece.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>With regard to George Archer signature on the 2006 Masters flag. He died maybe 6 months before the Masters itself took place. Is it out of the question that the flag existed that far in advance of the tournament itself? That they make them ahead of time, maybe even in batches of years? It's not like it's a highly dynamic graphic design. It stays the same pretty much - maybe they even have them made up through 2015 or something.<br /><br />I know it sounds like these guys are not only crooks, but they are (inexcusably) sloppy crooks. Still, I think signing for a dead guy is really so careless that maybe it's even beyond some of these guys. <br /><br />So I'm thinking that maybe, is it possible, that someone was gathering actual signatures on a flag that existed 6 months before one of golf's biggest events? Yeah, I'm thinking it's possible.<br /><br />Or it's at least as possible as someone that makes a living forging famous signatures making the stunning blunder of forging a dead guy. I guess it's beyond my comprehension that someone could be that stupid. <br /><br />J
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>"Or it's at least as possible as someone that makes a living forging famous signatures making the stunning blunder of forging a dead guy."<br />There have been numerous instances in the autograph hobby of a signature appearing on an item , with the item being made after the death of the signer.<br />I once saw a govt. postcard, no postmark of course, with a signature of Lou Gehrig. The postcard came out a couple of years after he died.<br /><br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Wow. Then maybe the forgers aren't sloppy. Maybe they just count on the ignorance of buyers, or that they won't bother to look up something like that.<br /><br />Still, even though it is clear in the case of a postcard that didn't exist until after someone's death, it seems at least possible that this flag existed before the guy died. A PC can show a datable event or be datable itself. But the existence of this flag is not necessarily tied directly to the date of the event it was tied to or even used in.<br /><br />Of course, I have no clue whatsoever how these things work. I think I assumed they would have a stack of (something - flags, towels, whatever) that they pass around to all of these guys to sign in turn. Kind of like team balls that may be signed in spring training well before Opening Day or hosting the All Star game or whatever. With that assumption it seemed reasonable that this circuit would take awhile and that they might want to start it ahead of time so as to have their commemorative items ready when the event started.<br /><br />But as I said that was an assumption, and I truly know nothing of this field or practice. So I obviously defer to Richard's far greater experience and expertise and say ... wow. That's some noive!<br /><br />Oh. And if the flag in question is represented as actually having been USED in the 06 Masters prior to being signed, then case closed anyways.<br /><br />J
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Randy Trierweiler</b><p>John F. Kennedy was featured on a Time magazine cover in 1965. <br /><br />See where this is going? <br /><br />Ebay has had to pull the autographed version due to complaints a few times.<br /><br />Nothing surprises me when it comes to ripping people off. <br /><br />I think the longer you do it, the easier it gets and people get careless.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Bill Panagopulos</b><p>First: The "customer satisfaction award". Who issues these things? Do customers spontaneously get together over drinks, and Joey Baggadonuts says: "Hey, those guys at Coach's Corner really satisfy me! Let's give 'em an award!" and everyone agrees and cheers and gets an award printed up? I always wondered about that...<br /><br />I certainly wish I owned an auction house where the authenticator was also my "Public Relations Director" (see article in S.C.D. Mar. 2, 2007), and I had absolutely no obligation to consider anyone else's opinion but his, and if an item he authenticated was disputed I could tell the buyer to go scratch. Hell, I'd have him authenticating EVERYTHING in my catalog! <br /><br />FYI Coach's Corner report per the Better Business Bureau appears below. Of course, I'd bet that the actual number of complaints is much higher.<br /><br />QUOTE<br />Customer Experience<br />Based on BBB files, this company has an unsatisfactory record with the Bureau due to unanswered complaint(s).<br />Customer Complaint Data<br />Number of complaints processed by the BBB over the last 36 months: 3<br />Number of complaints processed by the BBB in the last 12 months: 2<br />Complaints Concerned:<br /> Selling Practices (1 complaints)<br />1Company did not respond<br /> Contract Disputes (1 complaints)<br />1Company did not respond<br />The company's size, volume of business and number of transactions may have a bearing on the number of complaints received by the BBB. The complaints filed against a company may not be as important as the type of complaints, and how the company has handled them. The BBB generally does not pass judgement on the validity of complaints filed.<br />UNQUOTE<br /><br />Now, there's been a lot of dispute about what a "forensic document examiner" or "questioned document examiner" is. Here's some info from Wikipedia:<br /><br />Questioned document examination (QDE) is known by many names including forensic document examination, document examination, diplomatics, handwriting examination, and sometimes handwriting analysis, although the latter name is not often used as it may be confused with graphology...The task of forensic document examination is to answer questions about a disputed document using a variety of scientific processes and methods. Many examinations involve a comparison of the questioned document, or components of the document, to a set of known standards. The most common type of examination involves handwriting wherein the examiner tries to address concerns about potential authorship.<br />One task of a forensic document examiner is to determine if a questioned item originated from the same source as the known item(s), then present their opinion in court as an expert witness. Other tasks include determining what has happened to a document, determining when a document was produced, or deciphering information on the document that has been obscured, obliterated or erased...<br /><br />ASTM Standard E444-98 (Standard Description of Scope of Work Relating to Forensic Document Examination) indicates there are four components to the work of a forensic document examiner. It states that an examiner "makes scientific examinations, comparisons, and analyses of documents in order to: (1) establish genuineness or nongenuineness, or to expose forgery, or to reveal alterations, additions or deletions, (2) identify or eliminate persons as the source of handwriting, (3) identify or eliminate the source of typewriting or other impression, marks, or relative evidence, and (4) write reports or give testimony, when needed...<br /><br />There are three possible methods of instruction for an aspiring document examiner:<br />Self-education is the way in which the pioneers of the field began, as there was no other method of instruction.<br /><br />Apprenticeship has become the widespread manner in which many examiners are now taught. In fact, this is the method that is recommended by ASTM in Standard E2388-05. To conform with the ASTM standard such training "shall be the equivalent of a minimum of 24 months full-time training under the supervision of a principal trainer" and "the training program shall be successfully completed in a period not to exceed four years". The training program must also include an extensive list of specific syllabus topics outlined in ASTM Standard E2388-05.<br /><br />College and/or university programs are very limited at this time. This is due, in part, to the relatively limited demand for forensic document examiners. It also relates to the need for extensive practical experience; particularly with respect to handwriting examination. It is difficult to include this degree of practical experience in a normal academic program..<br /><br />A document examiner may be certified by the American Board of Forensic Document Examiners, Inc. (ABFDE), which was formed in 1977 with a grant from the U.S. Department of Justice. The ABFDE is one of two bodies accredited and recognized by the Forensic Specialties Accreditation Board, Inc (FSAB) to carry out certification of forensic document examiners. To date, there is no federal licensing involved in the discipline. However, the court has recognized the ABFDE as reputable in the case of U.S. v. Buck, 1987, in denying a motion that claimed that handwriting comparisons were unreliable.<br /><br />An applicant to the ABFDE for certification must meet the following requirements:<br /><br />they must be of good moral character, high integrity and good repute; and possess high ethical and professional standing<br /><br />the program is limited to permanent residents of the USA, Canada and Mexico<br /><br />must possess a bachelor degree (or higher) from an accredited academic institution, or equivalent<br /><br />must successfully have completed a full-time training program of at least 2 years duration in a forensic laboratory recognized by the Board<br /><br />must provide three references from forensic document examiners certified or recognized by the Board<br /><br />must be actively engaged in the full-time practise of forensic document examination and<br /><br />must demonstrate a record of appropriate professional activity in forensic document examination<br /><br />In addition to meeting the basic requirements listed above, an applicant must also pass comprehensive written, practical and oral examinations that explore the wide range of problems encountered in document examination.<br /><br />Certificates issued by the ABFDE are valid for five years, and can be renewed. During that five-year renewal period, the diplomate must earn at least 40 continuing education credits. Credits are awarded for a variety of related activities, such as attendance and participation at ABFDE recognized forensic meeting and programs, and publication of articles in journals recognized by the Board. Individuals holding a valid Certificate of Qualification issued by the ABFDE will use the designation "Diplomate of the American Board of Forensic Document Examiners."<br /><br />ABFDE ensures that the applicant satisfies a number of standardized requirements with regular testing to ensure that the examiner performs at the same high level of professionalism, as do the other people in the trade. More-so than merely denoting the attainment of certain academic and minimum standards, board certification indicates that the examiner cares enough about the profession to spend time and effort to adequately prepare himself or herself to properly serve the public. Courts must assess the credibility of the document examiner as an expert witness and to do this they will often rely upon the examiner’s reputation in the profession together with his or her affiliations with credible professional organizations.<br /><br />BFDE<br />The Board of Forensic Document Examiners (BFDE) also provides certification of forensic document examiners. The BFDE is the other body accredited and recognized by the Forensic Specialties Accreditation Board, Inc (FSAB) in this area.<br /><br /><br />NOW -- If you've managed to plow through all of this, the Wikipedia link is: <br /><br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Questioned_document_examination" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Questioned_document_examination</a><br /><br />Who wants to contact them and check the credentials of people laying claim to being forensic/questioned document examiners? <br />Anyone want to see if all those continuing education credit were earned?<br />How about the attendance in a "full-time training program of at least 2 years duration in a forensic laboratory"?<br />And the three references? And the "full time employment" as a forensic document specialist?<br />Anyone want to make a statement about "the examiner's reputation in the profession"?<br /><br />AMERICAN ACADEMY OF FORENSIC SCIENCES:<br />Anne Warren<br />Executive Director<br />(719) 636-1100, extension 214<br />awarren@aafs.org<br /><br /><br /><br />FINALLY:<br /><br />FOURTH REQUEST:<br /><br />Mr. Morales: Your website states, verbatim:<br /><br />QUOTE<br /><br />"An Open Challenge<br /><br />As noted herein, I will meet anyone in a public forum to review and assess my work efforts. Since private communications are often cherry picked to bolster a point of view, at times misdirecting the facts, it is my position that any meetings and communications be conduct in the open. If anyone desires to contact me concerning an open forum, please do not hesitate to call, email or otherwise contact me at anytime".<br /><br />UNQUOTE<br /><br /><br />Mr. Morales, I hereby challenge you to appear, before a group of your peers in the autograph authentication trade and the international press, to:<br /><br />a.) Discuss your "forensic" methods of authentication, and your education and qualifications, using exemplars or otherwise;<br /><br />b.) Describe in detail other criteria you used to authenticate the thousands of various autographs for which you have issued certificates;<br /><br />c.) explain your relationships, if any, with the various consignors, auction houses, galleries, etc. for whom you authenticate, and;<br /><br />d.) assess your work efforts, ie: how have your authentications been received in the autograph market, as a whole.<br /><br />If you wish to limit the discussion to your "work efforts" alone, I would expect your peers would still meet with you, depending on the agenda. <br /><br />I will pay your airfare and hotel room expenses for your attendance at such a forum in the New York area, for a meeting within the next 60 days. As stated above, I expect you would be asked to respond to inquiries from your peers, that is, knowledgeable, recognized dealers of the same material which you have authenticated. Should the location not be convenient for you, I'm sure we can arrange a meeting in Falls Church. Mr. Shelly Jaffe has already graciously agreed to attend, as has Mr. Frank Caiazzo. <br /><br />I assume that this email will reach you, since I do not have your emali address. If anyone posting to this site can confirm delivery to Mr. Morales, I would be much obliged.<br /><br />B. Panagopulos <br /><br />PS Shall I assume that your CONTINUED silence in response to this message means you decline my offer?
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>Joann - it is possible for that flag to have been manufactured before 2006, but awfully unlikely for it to have been signed by the golfers. I cannot think that the Masters would ask a large group of golfers at the 2005 Masters to sign a flag for the 2006 Masters.<br />--<br /><br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>This thread was based on two different companies, C. Morales and STAT. <br /><br />I would like to now discuss STAT. They are the most repulsive of all. Their web site claims that they have over a 100 years of experience. Let us look at what that means. Ted Taylor, you failed in the HBO test on the following people, Mantle, Dimaggio, and Williams. You say that you worked for Score Board. I know in fact that you did, the only problem is you have no idea what a real signature looks like. As far as your partner is concerned he is correct when he says that he authenticates for the Babe Ruth Museum. The problem is he did't say it was in person authentication. He has nothing to do with authenticateding older items for the Museum. <br />What really turns my stomach is your COA's. I will print it out on this site and if SCD doesn't have the balls to disqualify you as an authenticator then the people on this site will make it happen.<br />Where in your one hundred years of experience do you have the knowledge of Rock and Roll, History, Movies, Authors, and Aviation. I know that Sitting Bull and George Washington played first base for the Mets.<br /><br />This is the way they authenticate an item using this disclaimer:<br /><br />Verification - STAT Authentic, an LLC registered in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, renders a service in expressing our opinion and knowledge, however, STAT Authentic LLC and its partners/employees does not guarantee the accuracy of our opinion expressed regarding any items submitted for authentication. We assume no liability whatsoever for any loss or damage allegedly sustained as a result of any opinion rendered.<br /><br />STAT Authentic LLC is in no way liable for personal loss due to damage alteration or any other reason once this item leaves our possession. Our seal, signatures, registration number and processing date must appear on this certificate for it to be valid. By the way STAT has authenticated more Beatles pieces in one year than they could have signed( just a guess)<br /><br />CAN ANYONE ON THIS SITE WANT TO HAVE THEIR SEAL OF APPROVAL? <br /><br />STAT, Morales had the balls to come on here, why not you?
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I might be speaking out of turn but the same challenge goes out to STAT. I will pay your way to Falls Church or any venue you want. That Goes to CC. and SCD. It is as they say in the octagon "Let get it on".<br />You have a lot of people that never came on this site , and now are telling you how outraged they are. They deserve a reply. I am the same person that SCD would not print a reply when UDA made an effort to make the $85.000 card go away. You also would not a let a letter about Ted Taylor be printed without your editing it. Censorship is something that belongs in a third world country. It doesn't take a genius to know who your allegiance is with.<br />Oh for the good old days when Rocky could print and write what he wanted.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Shelly,<br />I am going to guess that STAT are the ones that e-mailed Leon. I also think that they could be feeling some pressure from the publisher of SCD that had e-mailed and said he would read this thread. <br /><br />I so hope that is the case. A little civil war that for once will have the innocent victims get justice.<br /><br />Maybe SCD will sell to CC. If you still have a subscription to SCD, and want to retain it when it sells to CC, you get your choice of any 19th Century HOF player photo, in blue or silver sharpie, complete with both Morales and STAT certifications.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>J. McMurry</b><p> Thank you Bill for your response on the Beatles Albums. I used to collect Beatles in the mid 80's (not autographs)and never realized the rarity of a signed album cover, it trully amazes me to know the facts.<br /><br /> I'm starting to believe that this thread is past the point of beating a dead horse. no one here is gonna buy from the mentioned parties. For this to actually accomplish something, pressure needs to be put on the media (SCD) that enables the mentioned parties to appear legit to the mass of novice collectors.<br /><br />I doubt that the Masters gets involved in any way with golfers signing their event flags, in fact, if given the chance they would probably not allow the flags into the secoundary market at all.<br /><br />That Woods and Palmer sigs on that flag look horrible. Knowing what I've read about wood's signing habits, I cant imagine him signing something like that.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Bill Panagopulos</b><p>Mr. McMurry,<br /><br />SCD is not the place to stop.<br /><br />I'd like to hear from anyone on this board with contacts to any major member of the press. My initial thoughts are Sports Illustrated, Rolling Stone, Baseball Digest, Sporting News, Geek Monthly, etc., also prominent newspaper contacts. <br /><br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I said in an earlier thread that if I where to find out the Morales worked at GWU I would retract my statement. I have found out that he was a Criminal Justice Advisor.<br />That being said. It still does not make him a handwriting expert.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>J. McMurry</b><p>"SCD is not the place to stop."<br /><br /><br /> You are correct sir.<br /><br /> What else can the "little man" collector like myself do to help? (Other than to complain to SCD and/or cancel my subscription.)
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Robert</b><p>What can can complaining to SCD do? You think they care? E-mail them and see what happens. Post your success or failure here. <br /><br />You are but one subscription. The hobby has already turned their back on the rag, but they continue to truck along with their paper thin product. <br /><br />It's the GOOD advertisers I take issue with. Why anyone supports this magazine is beyond me. <br /><br />The GOOD advertisers know exactly what is going on and they refrain from doing anything. They keep supporting it with advertising. These advertisers should be taken to the wood shed for a talkin'. <br /><br />As far as this thread goes, it's fascinating (love the golf piece) and I have enjoyed catching up. I would like to know if there are any lawyers on this board that could contact me as well. There are like four billion lawyers in this world and when asked to step forth in this Forum, no one comes forth. What gives there? <br /><br />Keep up the great work guys.<br /><br />Bob<br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Robert,<br />Not sure who you are referring to regarding the lawyers that won't step forth. Adam, Steve, and many others are regular contributors to this board. Earlier in this thread, Shelly Jaffe, liked by some and not by others, asked for some legal help and got his answer quickly.<br /><br />Maybe if you are specific in the context of your questions, someone would answer. If you want to ask for free advice or guidance that someone is usually paid to provide, I'd ask a little nicer if I didn't know the person who could be helping me.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>DD - do you like Shelly ?? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />--<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Robert</b><p>Publicly (in the past as well), people have asked for specific law help on the Board and perhaps ideas were traded publicly, but questions don't appear to be answered on a public level in detail as requested. I didn't think I asked badly. If there are any lawyers out there, I promise I will be kind to them. How's that? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Just frustrated at this hobby, DD. That's all. <br /><br />Bob
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Rich,<br />I have never met Shelly. I can say that I believe in hope and redemption. I also feel that if Shelly has decided to turn his unique knowledge regarding the autograph industry to good purposes, that we take advantage of it.<br /><br />He has served his time, and says he made restitution where possible. That is good enough for me.<br /><br />Why do you ask?
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>DD - just kidding around,,, that's why I put the <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> sign there.<br /><br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Sorry Rich. Long night for me and I got up a little while ago.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Most of the vintage card collecting lawyers stopped looking at this nearly incomprehensible AUTOGRAPGH thread, which is clogging up the vintage CARD forum, five hundred and sixty posts ago.<br /><br />We get it. We actually got it several hundred posts ago.<br /><br />I guess this will continue until the number posts exceeds the number of bogus autographs certified by Morales, or STAT, or whoever.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Chuck Tapia</b><p>some of us don't care for your stupid little t-whatever cards either? <br /><br />By Shelly stepping up to create this thread, it has brought nothing but more readers here. Stay the hell off of this thread then if you don't like it. I'm sorry you can't read about the "E-bay 10% off" thread quicker or about your t-210 error card or t-206 reprints or tiny url threads.....I really don't give a rats ass about that. So we are even.<br /><br />I for one have found this eye opening, captivating and informative. I think that we should have a regular Thread here called "Ask Shelly", where autograpgh collectors can get some inside advice as to how to tell a Dimaggio fake baseball from an original for instance? What are some tell tale signs of the forged item, stuff like that? What could be better than for Shelly to answer qustions to the public he decieved. He deserves a chance to make amends.<br /><br />Sorry to be posting on your precious little card forum Mr. T.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>"We get it. We actually got it several hundred posts ago."<br /><br /><br />Sadly I don't think I get it. Am I to trust nothing signed that I didn't witness?
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>In the spirit of not feeding the trolls - "delete".
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>I just heard back from Joe Polski, who is the Chief Operations Officer for the International Association for Identification (IAI). This is an organization that Chris Morales lists on his resume. Mr. Polski indicated to me that they will look into the information I provided, which was a link to this thread.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Chuck Tapia</b><p>Go "slab" yourself wad.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>PC,<br />Please take this to another thread. If it is troublesome to you that this thread is so long, then ignore it. The people who have been posting in this thread feel it is an important issue.<br /><br />We can demonstrate to this community, as well as others that have been reading, and will be reading this, that we are an intelligent, serious, group. I am all for a little levity, and make my share of jokes in this thread, and posts in other threads.<br /><br />However, I think we have had enough time spent already in this thread with conflict on issues pertinent to the subject, that we don't need to have conflict revolving around if this thread is still important.<br /><br />Thanks, and nothing personal. Just trying to stay on topic.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Bill Panagopulos</b><p>Slab yourself - I'm still laughing!<br /><br />Slab this! It's genuine.<br /><br />Still looking for press contacts - pls assist
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>I think the ultimate goal of this thread is to increase the probability that when you buy an item that it is real not fake. To do that, we must get rid of the poor authenticators or at least advise all novice autograph collectors which companies are good and which are shady. Some opinions are definitely better than others.<br /><br />I think PCCE in April will be a good start. I don't think they invited Coaches Corner, STAT or Morales. I would be great if these guys are there as part of a round table discussion. I'd like to hear their side of the story.<br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>For example, some levity, but still pertinent.<br /><br /><a href="http://moralesforensics.com/activities.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://moralesforensics.com/activities.htm</a><br /><br />Notice how in the training on proper collection and handling of physical evidence in foreign countries, that the experts assumedly advise their trainees not to wear gloves, because he is not.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Mike Navarro</b><p>Found this clip today that talks about the Marino forgeries and Frangipanni and the other forensic authenticators. Interesting to watch.<br /><br /> <br /><br />Take care,<br /><br />Mike Navarro<br /><br />edited to add that there is a link above to the youtube of the same video...the autostart on the one you posted is bogging down this thread.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Rick McQuillan</b><p>PC, I totally agree with you. <br /><br />First of all, this is old news.<br /><br />Second, isn't there an autograph forum somewhere where this would be more appropriate?<br /><br />Third, we should all know by now that "authenticators" and "forensic experts" are full of ****. By my math, authenticator = crook, COA = garbage.<br /><br />If I offended any authenticators or forensic experts - good. <br /><br />Rick<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g9/buymycards/santa.jpg"><br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Thanks Rick.<br /><br />David -- I appreciate your civil response, but I don't need to take this to another thread -- this thread needs to be taken to another forum.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>PC,just to let you know that when I asked for some help I had ten emails from 10 different lawyers on this site. You might not think this thread is important but it seems to have had some impact.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>PC,<br />If this was in the memorabilia section, would your reaction be the same? If it bothers you that Shelly is in the forefront, would you rather he still be selling forgeries? Should we not try to clean up one area of the hobby? <br /><br />Call out the people who tamper cards. See if Gary Moser will get on board with you to find the fakes. Or, do it yourself. <br /><br />Remember, the people who are forging/altering cards and signatures are smart. They flaunt their credentials, set up web sites, basically tell you that anything can be faked or authenticated. If I recall correctly, there was a site that may have come down in a short time, that said it could repair cards. Bottom line is they need to be put out of business. <br /><br />If you don't like the thread, move on.<br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>David -- I think you're missing the point. This is not a memorabilia board. On this board, when someone with card alteration knowledge speaks, like Kevin Saucier, we listen, and (most) appreciate it.<br /><br />Shelly might be the most important reformer in your hobby, and we've heard all about it. At this point, this thread is only autograph collectors (some of whom are clearly off their medications)talking to each other -- on a vintage card forum.<br /><br />But if the mods will allow it to continue, so be it. Good luck.<br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>I don't collect autographs. That doesn't mean I don't care about people getting ripped off. If I can bring something positive to this effort, great. If I can't, I'll keep my mouth shut. But I certainly wouldn't go around whining about what other people are discussing. Sounds like your the one who got ripped off at some point.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>This thread probably should have been started on the memorabilia board, but there is no way to move it over there now and there has been a little bit accomplished in this thread. The autograph collectors have kept it all in this one thread so I don't know why someone would be on this thread complaining about it. Not too hard to ignore one thread on this forum whether it have 1 reply or 600. Coming in here and name calling serves no point.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Mike Mccullough</b><p>This may be old news to you PC but to me it is like continuing education. It is relevant to this board because it deals with pre war as well as post war material.. Whether it be an autographed baseball or a card. Im not an Autograph collector per say and didnt realize this problem never really went away. I appreciate a thread like this because it gives the public a RE awareness of a problem that has never left. I posted a link to this thread and the link to the HBO videos on my website and have received some very positive feedback. A person whom I work with thanked me and said he was just speechless after watching the videos. Ya see,,, this thread has reached people in a positive way that you cannot even realize... So with that said,, shut your pie hole slabhead.... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I put a smiley there so all is good. Capiche???<br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Bill Panagopulos</b><p>PC - <br /><br />I never heard of Net 54 until about ten days ago. Never posted a damned thing on a forum, and always thought forums were used to share knowledge and expertise in the field of plaster kewpie dolls of the 1920's (or more nefarious purposes). And I don't give a rat's arse for baseball cards - I'd take your entire collection and put it in my kid's bicycle spokes so that his boke would sound cool. But I don't care about cards, just as YOU don't care about autographs. <br /><br />I found this thread only through word of email. <br /><br />I don't know if you're right or wrong. Is this site totally devoted, exclusively, to baseball cards? If so, I apologize. Is too much bandwidth being used? <br /><br />We are talking about sales of $20+million dollar per year or more in material that is being debated here. That's $20 MILLION. PER YEAR! What's that trimmed(?) Honus Wagner card worth? A measly million bucks? <br /><br />Twenty Million Dollars from the pockets of people who are buying this stuff to pay for:<br /><br />- their retirement<br />- college tuitions<br />- medical expenses<br /><br />etc. etc.<br /><br />You label those who have been ripped-as as "crybabies". The correct verbiage is "victims", and they're finally pissed-off, and hopefully have found a common voice.<br /><br />Lighten up, chum.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>The lightening up needs to go both ways. Stop with the name calling and back and forth. This is a CARDS ONLY forum, but Leon was nice enough to let this thread stay here. It belongs in the memorabilia forum and denigrating card collectors who are hosting this thread is only going to get this thread off topic and likely locked so lets try to keep it on topic.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>As I've stated before, I used to collect autographs. But being that I've been ripped off so many times with bogus signatures and even worse COA's, I got out of the hobby. I will never collect them again.<br /><br />I visit this site for the cardboard content. That's my hobby and I love it. I don't collect high grade cards, so I don't worry that much about counterfeit cards, and everything that I purchase is slabbed. I've learned to do my research as a result of my bad experiences in the autograph collecting hobby. So am I a crybaby? Maybe. The autographs were supposed to mean something to me and my family. <br /><br />Maybe this thread is in the wrong place. But as stated above, it is one thread, that can be overlooked if you have no interest. I think it's very informative and I appreciate what is being done here. Something needs to be done for the "victims". These guys need to pay.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Dan B is absolutely correct. This should be a cards ONLY forum per the rules and really even more so since we have our own memorabilia forum. I let this thread go as I know Shelly and I DID want it to get a lot of exposure. This side does get more exposure. It's that important of a topic to the sports collectibles field. HOWEVER, It is considered off topic on this side of the board and we shouldn't forget that. As long as it stays in this thread then no one has to open it, was my thought. It would be more appropriate in the memorabilia forum on this front page...where it says " Memorabilia Forum" and has a picture of a glove....take care ya'll....<br /><br />edited for clarification
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Bill Panagopulos</b><p>Agreed...Let's stay on topic (but off topic?)<br /><br />This is a vitally important subject, as evident from the number of posts here, albeit this may not be the right venue. The press is picking up on this, and that's a good thing for everyone. <br /><br />A lot of good is being done here, and I'm sure everyone agrees with that. If no damage is being done, a little forbearance is in everyone's best interest.<br /><br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Bill -- we know you don't care about cards (you said so), but I never said I don't care about autographs. I have 40+ HOF and other autographs (maybe more), across the four major sports, including a few items that might really surprise you. But most regulars here already know that the autograph hobby has been destroyed by fraud. As such, it isn't what we collect, nor is it the focus here (and that isn't going to change, notwithstanding that the three people Mike forced to look at his web page may have benefitted greatly from this thread). <br /><br />What I don't care for is a 600+ off-topic thread that keeps popping-up at the top of this board, with the same repetitive information, from the same group (many of whom are not even autograph collectors, and most of whom have never posted here before, and probably will not participate in anything on-topic to this forum). Further, most of these people, following the slightest questioning of why they are here, felt completley free to denigrate the collecting habits of the board. Sorry, but that's annoying. <br /><br />Morevoer, the ongoing character assasination that is the subject of this thread is very disturbing, even though every word of it may be true. I'm sure the mods did not intend to provide a public forum for business destruction -- IMO, this is a dangerous thing for the mods to permit to continue (or even continue to exist on the board), but that's their call.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>1. What is the record for most posts in a given thread? I've only been here about a year and this is the longest I've seen. <br /><br />2. Is anybody making book on the final number of posts here? (And do we have to guess the exact number or is it like The Price Is Right where it's closest without going over? And is there any over/under action?<br /><br />3. To Rick M - Is that the Santa rookie?
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>This thread has gotten too long and unwieldy for me to follow but I see recent comments that sadden me about people not wanting to collect autographs.<br /><br />Our experience has been that with a JSA or PSA LOA, there is literally a 99% chance there is no issue. From our perspective, the successful marketing of these two companies has allowed the autograph business to grow at an unprecedented level, both in terms of prices, number of dealers/resellers and most importantly, number of collectors. While I am not going to get in the middle of any disputes here, we would simply suggest that any potential autograph collectors who follow these guidelines, will almost certainly not encounter any problems.<br /><br />Sorry to prolong a memorabilia thread but I just think that this is an important point to make...<br /><br />Steve Verkman<br />Clean Sweep Auctions
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Bill: for some reason your name looked familiar. So, I pulled my autographed State Dept. photo of Dean Acheson off the wall. On the back of the frame I kept the correspondence from the seller -- Alexander Autographs, signed by Basil A. Panagopulos. Purchased about four years ago, I think.<br /><br />Small world! <br /><br />Note to self ... careful who you insult, it might just be a customer! But no worries, I have no doubt it is real. Looks great next to my autographed photo of General Marshall. It's a Harry Truman cabinet thing.<br /><br />Alas, I am prolonging this thread.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Bill Panagopulos</b><p>PC,<br /><br />Well, I'll be damned...better get it checked out right away!<br /><br />Remember - you just said I'd be surprised what you owned...and I am! Har, har! Where have you been? I need the money!<br /><br />Seriously - this is a VERY important thread. Yes, it'll run out of stem but a little longer for the right people to see it and the wheels will be put in motion. We're not here to ruin people - just to get at the truth.<br /><br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>When I started this thread it was to reply to Mr Morales challenge. I have seen over and over again people talking about Coaches Corner, The Donald, Morales and others. It lasted for about five comments and it was over. 600 plus comments makes me think that we hit a nerve . I love the card side and I have seen thread after thread about fake cards. I also have seen threads talk about doctoring a card,trimming a card and over grading of cards. If you don't think that this is not the same thing you are mistaken. Part of operation bullpen was busting people that changed cards to a higher grade.. I will tell you that Leon has helped you guys more than you will ever know and in a small helped as well . I think that is why he let this thread continue. I am sorry if the card side is upset but let this thread run its course. I think before its over you might be very surprised at the outcome. <br /><br /><br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>You're a good sport Bill, and an honest, reputable guy.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>The card side should not be upset. It's one single thread. There is no invasion, just one large soldier. <br /><br />This thread is getting A LOT of attention, but it's still only one thread. You can always fight with Dorskind in another thread. Or start an Al Rosen thread if you want to compete. The one thing I know for sure is that Shelly better get thread #714 and #755. Once it gets to 1,000, maybe you start over at the Memorabilia side for the sequel if this thing still has legs.<br /><br />This is an important thread and it will eventually pass, but for now I think important steps have been made here. <br /><br />Mr. Verkman, a lot of people feel this way and a lot of people have started collecting cards (and came to this board for salvation) and turned their back on autographs. It doesn't help that Jimmy clone looked like a fool on TV with "Bando-gate" and PSA/DNA is authenticating Clem Labine balls as perished Heisman Trophy winner Ernie Davis. <br /><br />But for the most part you are correct about these two companies.<br /><br />DJ <br /><br />Edited: badd speling<br /><br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Bill Panagopulos</b><p>PC - <br /><br />Ya damned brokers/bankers/fi-nan-seers! No wonder they're ee-victin' me next week! You guys never let go!<br /><br />Appreciate your kind comments - just another happy customer I've managed to con...I mean, satisfy!<br /><br />Best regards,<br />BP
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>FGN</b><p>Mr. Verkman I know you really don't want to get too involved here but since you posted I'd really like to hear your thoughts on a previous posters comments which stated:<br /><br />'It's the GOOD advertisers I take issue with. Why anyone supports this magazine is beyond me. <br /><br />The GOOD advertisers know exactly what is going on and they refrain from doing anything. They keep supporting it with advertising. These advertisers should be taken to the wood shed for a talkin.'<br /><br />Not intending to single you out by asking, but I haven't noticed any other SCD advertisers who have posted. If any others are lurking I'd welcome their thoughts as well. I will say that I too am guilty in that my subscription is still current. For the first time in more than 20 years I will not be renewing.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Chuck Tapia</b><p>why don't you fill the babe ruth wax ball up with wax from your ear?<br /><br />Casa De Tapia has a nice mountain view in the San Fernando Valley. With my office overlooking the pool. My Babe Ruth Ball decorates the office!!It's doesn't need ear wax to fill the letters. It's Gem Mint and it comes complete with a LOA from Christopher Morales, so I know it's real!!Unlike that waxy, oil laiden ball with Tim Bottomskly and Ruth yo have in your safe. WOWO!!!!<br /><br />At least I have the balls to post my name. The fact you can't call me out by my monniker, show's what an ass you are. Lay in to me if you want, but I don't call you by your name other than your stupid PC t-210.<br /><br />Let's just stay on topic. First quitting cards due to slab heads like you, and now getting beat up trying to discuss and learn about autographs. Thanks PC for the Welcome. Why don't you post your name now you chicken s? You know who I am. I am FUDD
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Chuck,<br />Can you post a pic of your Ruth ball?
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>If people dealt with reputable sellers like Bill, instead of buying autos on the cheap from the crooks that ruined the autograph hobby, they wouldn't be so angry, and maybe the crooks would have been out of business a long time ago.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>I agree with PC. Part of the problem would have to be the people who know they have been ripped off, but are trying to protect their "investment".<br /><br />Well, they can always trade them amongst each other. Figure the real value is 1/20th of a cent, same as a coupon. We're just marching on trying to stop anyone else from getting scammed.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Chuck Tapia</b><p>Sorry to hurt your feelings pal with all that talk about my financial loss, but I was kidding about the Ruth Ball. Lest anyone think I was serious. I used to collect quite a bit so I'm no stranger to the problem in the hobby. This is about fraud plain and simple and the people who are perpetrating it on the public. Sure I've been a victim once or twice? Do you think I really care? No. That's why the clowns like this get away with it.<br /><br />I was kidding by calling you a "slab" and you get all bent out of shape? Nice sense of humor. I quit the hobby with a pretty decent collection, back in the day when you could just collect the cards and you didn’t have to buy everything graded for fear of being ripped off. The hobby changed for the worse. Go waste your money with your graded slab cards and go put them in a box. I'll do what I do. I only re-entered the collecting of balls and a few decorative pictures for my office. This is why this is a parallel issue to what card collectors are also facing. It’s all a matter of perspective. <br /><br />I'm sorry I didn't discover this or find it fascinating 20 years ago. It is fascinating NOW which is why YOU would even follow it and the 600 plus entries.<br /><br />By the way, I was not singled out by anyone. Leon wanted to check my e-mail address you dufus. He said I could verbally slap you around as much as I'd like because he doesn't like you and thinks you are a pompous A, which I tend to agree. Stay on the topic, get off the pot, leave your name or get the h off this thread that is hurting your cards and your pride so much. Who really cares? <br /><br />The fact is, this has turned into a great site to offer this much information to people, new fresh collectors and old crusty ones of all types of collectibles and you come in here and shellac them like your stupid old Tom Billingworth /Ruth Ball with the wax chip that nobody cares about. It isn't about you or me. Let these guys stick to the issue and stop knit picking at me and hiding behind your PC and snipping people who are decent enough to share their name and then having "Pie Hole" calling out people by usingtheir real names. It really says everything about the little coward you are. Real class.<br />
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>In the spirit of not feeding the trolls - "delete"
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Enough already guys. This thread was not meant to degenerate into a pissing contest between two people.<br />Take it to private e mail or SHUT UP.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>J. McMurry</b><p> Well, if the press is following this thread, they've probably dismissed it's credibility now as it seems to have turned into a comical B-Slap fest.<br /><br />One point. I've heard several mentions of people collecting autographs to pay for college, weddings, etc.<br /> If the only reason you collect is as an investment to hit the "mother load" down the road,then I dont feel much sympathy toward your losses, I'm sorry I just dont. If your looking for money making investments stick to the stock market or buy gold, real estate. People jumping into this hobby buying up stuff as an investment just muddy up the waters, by inflating prices and making crooks rich which erodes the enjoyment out of it for the true collectors. Personally I collect both cards and autographs because they are a link to things that I enjoy; sports, history, and memories from my childhood. <br /><br />Now, back to the name calling jamboree.
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>J Mc - I totally agree with you. The story I related about the young couple who came to my table to sell his autograph collection for their wedding, well I don't think the man had been investing in autographs. I think it was a case of well we need the money so I am going to have to sacrifice my autograph collection. That was why I had so much empathy for them.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Chuck- I did NOT SAY those words about PC. PC has been on the board a long time and while I might not agree with everything anyone says I DID NOT say those things. The reason I asked you to email me is correct in that I was making sure you were who you posted as...and as far as I can tell you are. I also told you to carry on as those are the forum rules.....You can say most anything you want to but you HAVE to be known.....I was having virus issues last night and got rid of most everythin in my sent file and deleted file or I would have posted what I said to you.....take care
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