++++ Basically what I was trying :rolleyes: to say.

I can certainly see everyone's point in that shilling affects everyone in some way. I guess seeing some of these same names over and over again bidding mainly on high end items allowed me to come to the conclusion that this is a "rich person" problem because of the dollars that were being tossed around. After all, paying the 20% buyers premium on an item that was not sold was more than I am sure I spent in the last two years on my collection and not something I could afford to do.

I just am still not convinced that a low level collector like me has even been touched by this issue and that is probably because what I collect is not something that is in high demand and therefore, probably not as likely to be shilled.

But please know, I do understand your point and it remains to be seen how this will effect collectors like me.

SGC's Forman in 2010 accused Mastro of misusing his account for shill bidding
 

Something to keep in mind in the discussion about Forman: It isn't a surprise that his name appeared on the list as a shill bidder. He accused Mastro in a 2010 lawsuit of using "unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals," according to a trade press article at the time. (Pasted in full, below.)

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-counter-suit/

Looking back six years later, Forman's allegations were on the mark. I'd say give him the benefit of the doubt for now. A lot of people whose names showed up on the same list may be in the same boat.

To be sure, I'm uncomfortable with Forman's involvement as a market participant. He shouldn't be buying and selling collectibles that his company grades. The same goes for David Hall. It undermines their credibility and integrity, which hurts all of us.


SGC Boss Claims Shill Bidding in Counter Suit
February 8, 2010 By Rich Mueller

Seven months after being sued for money they say he owed them, SGC president Dave Forman has submitted a counterclaim against Mastro Auctions.

The court papers filed January 27 accuse the parent company of the now defunct auction house of several transgressions including shill bidding, a practice that artificially raises bids to generate a higher profit.

The counterclaim obtained by Sports Collectors Daily also states that a grand jury was convened in Chicago last month to see evidence and hear testimony on issues centered around an FBI investigation of unethical practices within the sports collecting hobby.

Forman, the owner of one of the hobby’s largest card grading and authentication services, also claims the auction company knowingly sold him a T200 Fatima Premium Cleveland Americans card that had been altered.

Mastro Auctions, which shut down last year, filed suit against Forman in the same Illinois state court last June, seeking $400,000 it says he owes. In 2007 and 2008, Mastro claims Forman purchased cards but didn’t pay for them. Forman claims Ketap (the name of the corporation that once did business as Mastro Auctions) has not produced receipts in support of those allegations and disputes that figure.

Forman claims the amount he owes Mastro was in error because his account with the auction house was never credited with proceeds from the sale of several lots he had consigned, including a 1934-36 Diamond Stars complete set, a 1933 Goudey Babe Ruth graded PSA 7, a T206 Buck Herzog graded SGC 88 and four rare comic books.

The suit indicates the grading and authentication service owner and the auction house had a long-standing relationship that involved Forman buying and selling cards. Ketap claimed in its suit that “dozens” of rare collectible items and memorabilia were bought and sold by Forman.

Under claims of violations involving the Illinois Consumer Fraud Act, Forman now says Mastro made unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals.

“Ketap and its officers knowingly conducted rampant fraud through a process known as shill bidding,” the claim states.

Forman claims that in a 2006 auction “a Ketap employee shill bid on a Ted Williams baseball card when, upon information and belief, he neither had the money or interest in owning it.”

Another of Forman’s shill bidding allegations states that in May of 2006, company officials artificially raised the bidding for an L-1 Leather Ty Cobb. “The item was then selling for $17,000,” the court papers state. “During that converstion, Mastro learned that the collector would pay a maximum bid of $41,000 for that item. Minutes later, a bid of $41,000 was placed on that item which would have triggered the collector’s maximum bid. Upon information and belief the $41,000 bid was the result of shill bidding effectuated by Mastro and Ketap.”

Forman also claims Mastro Auctions allowed various consignors to look at the ceiling bid information during its auction in the fall of 2007 and alleges that while Mastro promoted a “no reserve” auction, selected consignors were allowed to have reserves on their items.

Mastro Auctions was in the process of ending its run as one of the hobby’s top auction houses when Forman also claims it sold a Jackie Robinson rookie card graded 98 by his company, and a 1911 T205 Ty Cobb card graded 84, without his permission. Forman claims the items sold for significantly less than the $125,000 minimum he would have accepted.

The counterclaim and third-party complaint filed by Forman and his attorneys, seeks punitive damages and attorney’s fees.

As I once said before , he is like the Jose Canseco of memorabilia, one of the worst offenders, people do not want to believe him, but in the end.....

We are just going to need to keep moving forward and enjoy ourselves in the hobby, sure a mark has been left - and people made bad choices that may have changed people. I know one thing - cards, photos and other items are always going to be there for us to treasure. My direction changed a few years back and noticed we had enough auction houses in the hobby and felt that it would be a difficult challenge to manage and run a business platform that could potentially have issues. I really try and keep it simple now, for me and the collectors/dealers that I work with.

Jimmy

I guess they think they are living in Nazi Germany.

Uh...his brother was his shill bidder on nearly every item. What did Mastro say to him when his item didn't sell? Obviously if he wasn't doing the shilling he knew it was going on for a long time before any suit was brought forth.

You're jumping to conclusions, as far as Forman's involvement in shill bidding, or lack thereof. We don't have enough facts to know what happened -- except we do know what he alleged six years ago. The best thing Forman could do now is tell his side of the story publicly. That's crisis management 101. That said, as I said before, he shouldn't have been trafficking in collectibles that SGC grades in the first place. If he'd stuck with that policy, he wouldn't be in this position -- nor would collectors who own SGC-graded cards. From a reputational standpoint, it also doesn't help that he's moving the company to Boca Raton, which is the world's largest unfenced penitentiary and the country's most notorious haven for penny-stock frauds, boiler rooms and other investment scams.

Well, if the white collar fits...

So, how's BVG looking as a grading option?

Godwin's law has been invoked. Thread may be ending soon.

Yup.

The other way it can affect collectors like you (And me too!) is in how the prices of the expensive stuff set the prices for the less expensive stuff.

The pricing for cards is primarily controlled by demand. Rarity can create demand, but within some limits. If it was otherwise, I'd be a lot closer to wealthy than I am.

So lets say a card is a certain price - like maybe a 52 Mantle. The first one I saw in person cost the dealer who had it around 900, either a record, or close to it at the time. And it was pretty nice. Since I had little money I hoped to someday "settle" for a beat one for maybe 100. Or, roughly 10% of a really nice one. And that ratio seems to hold since 1980, a fairly nice one a 6 or so is 30,000+ and a beater around 3-4000.

Now lets assume there's been rampant shilling at one major auction(Pretty easy assumption) - and that the prices they supposedly got are part of what drives the other auctions results. How much of the higher prices since 1980 are real? certainly not ALL of it, and certainly not none of it. Since the shilled results would add to each other over several years, lets say 25% of the current price level is from the shilling. By extension, the price of the "A" card is also inflated by 25%. So it should really be maybe 2500-3000.
AHA! you say. "But I still can't afford one so it doesn't affect me"

Well, the price of the Mantle helps drive the prices of the other high numbers by increasing the popularity of the set. And those prices in turn help drive the prices of the rest of the set. (And the rest of the 50's sets too. )So if we look at maybe half of that effect being seen in the lower numbered cards then the average commons that sell for $10 should really sell for 8-9. And that is at a level that affects pretty much everyone.

If you don't mind paying 12-25% more for cards, I've a whole bunch I'd happily sell at 25% over the current prices. :D

Steve Birmingham

+1000000 on TOO many AHs!

Doug Allen is a dousche bag and deserves all the negative treatment he gets and hopefully an a$$ raping at camp walk away post sentancing. He treated many people like he treated you and acted like he was a big shot and above everyone else at most shows. I have said the same thing about Mastro in the past.

Where you are wrong is when you say it only affected big money people. Many great collections went through Mastro and Steinbach, Mastronet, and Legendary. I plugged my nose and bid on many items. There are many "big money" and "small money" people on that list. Remember that the shilling probably affected the small time collector more as they were reaching to spend that much money on one or two items. I can't imagine how big that list would be if we knew the true extent of their crimes and all of the years.

+1

Duluth speaks da truth. Spelled out like a hammer slamming down on a nail.

Am a low-grade collector (compared to typical N54 guys) who has 6 cards I've paid more than $100 for, with only my $450 DiMaggio above $150.

Here is where I do feel impacted...just not in the tens of thousands like others of you.

1. Had once imagined owning certain White Whale cards like a 52T Mantle. While the AHs dealt with the high grade ones, the prices of those definitely dragged the low end ones up with them.

2. Still hoping to own a 33G Ruth and 34G Gehrig. Reliant on TPGs to assure authenticity. But if ethics are that low, who knows...

3. Ditto for card doctoring.

4. While not necessarily the cause, the same bidding practices seen with Mastro are probably taking place with even the $25-$50 items I've won thru high volume eBay auctioneers. Greed is greed.

5. Though I don't buy as an investment or with any intent to sell, if scandals like this pop the card bubble, my own modest collection gets dragged down with it.

At the same time, show me anything that involves millions of dollars that hasn't already been completely corrupted. Doesn't make it right...just means it's no shock.

Any comment from anyone else on the list yet?

Hauls of Shame site now reporting

At least the NY DAILY News article was correct from what I saw.
Nash reports a lot of completely made up lies. Absolute fairy tales. Just like when he took the 5th amendment over 20 times in in a court deposition, as to where he got fake memorabilia he consigned. Why would anyone take the 5th amendment when asked WHERE THEY GOT FAKE ITEMS? He made all of it himself is my understanding. And his association with John Rogers should land him in jail for a long time. I wonder if his outstanding lawsuits and recent personal bankruptcy will follow him to jail. Hopefully they will. He is a loser. As I just told someone, I actually stick up for losers a little bit. Without them it would be much more difficult to succeed. I predict bad things will happen to Nash because he does bad things and deserves everything he gets (as we all do, for that matter).

Well, I just completed my reading of the New York Daily News article and the report on Hauls of Shame. I don't know if there is a chemical strong enough to remove the ooze and scum of the behavior that has transpired.

One note, however, is the quote in the Hauls of Shame article:

"The shill-bidding list was a hot topic in hobby circles over the weekend and one of the best observations we heard on the situation came from author and prominent Michigan attorney Ron Keurajian who told us, “There appears to be a continuing pattern of shill bidding, fraud, racketeering, and strong-arm tactics by the same core group of auctioneers, dealers, and authenticators all in an attempt to monopolize the sports memorabilia trade. Criminal prosecution under the RICO Act should be pursued by government and those who have been victimized should consider civil actions also allowed by the act.”

Pretty clear that although the messenger isn't well thought of on this board, the gentleman he interviewed, Ron Keurajian, paints an accurate picture of things to come.

This is going to be one ongoing and seemingly endless demolition derby.

I appreciate members sharing the lists and articles; I have been able to view some of the material. I would rather not read too much, so I think I have read enough and will move on with more positive things to talk about. I sure am glad we stuck to the shows and a bit of eBay over the years instead of giving all of our quality items to auctions.

Jimmy

edited per name rules....no anonymous bashing

With apologies to Mad Magazine and Wacky Packages:

New Halls of Blame article

Baseball forum website owner, Leon Luckey, who reportedly was in line for a Presidential Cabinet position until this website exposed the news that he once inhaled some helium out of a balloon, is now stuck running his site full of cronies and sycophants, and deleting this author's fake accounts.

In other news, Boston bar owner Rob Lifson, is reportedly retiring to the Cayman Islands, where he can freely access the billion dollars he possesses, acquired from the materials he stole from the Smithsonian when he was 8, including the first molecule formed during the Big Bang, as well as the only proof that man and dinosaurs roamed the Earth together.

As for this reporter, I will once again be leading the world's most successful rap group on a world tour, including:

Cooperstown (Valley)Forge (r)

In accord with full disclosure, I have used the following from a current eBay listing to sum up my opinion on the subject matter of this thread:

Brian - thanks for finally posting the first baseball card (postcard) on a baseball card thread...

I just had another thought about why we should all be so outraged about this activity (and it's been mentioned before, but it irks me about the cyclical nature of it all):

> Shill bidding increases the perceived (and realized) prices for cards that we purchase
> Record prices for certain cards are achieved by [insert AH name here] (e.g., Mastro, Probstein, etc.)
> I now go and consign with said AH because of these amazing prices achieved and because I want/need to sell
> b/c I am not on the "favored list" or b/c I do not shill my auctions, my cards sell for crap and I am also crushed with a 10-20% "transaction charge" whether it's in the form of a buyer's premium or seller's premium or whatever.

I have consigned to several AH's before, but specifically one thinking that there was something golden about their process and marketing capabilities...only to have my cards sell for next-to-nothing. Perhaps I am not alone in this frustration...

Exactly my experience, Derek. I wondered why items I consigned the felonious selling crew went for eBay prices when other items were through the roof. Now I know.

BTW, Brian, that Ruth is a great card.

So... what's the solution to this mess?

Respectfully, the notion that your unshilled cards sell for "next to nothing" seems somewhat inconsistent with the oft-argued notion that shilling on some items raises prices across the hobby. The baseball card version of a rising tide lifts all boats, I suppose. That point has been made several times in this thread, and in many prior discussions.

I doubt anything meaningful will happen to fix the problem unless legislation is passed and/or enforcement becomes more widespread. Like another stated however many posts ago, the pervasiveness of auction house shilling is not surprising.

There are of course transparency steps that Auction Houses could utilize, but won't, in some perceived name of privacy. As wonderful as this hobby can be, it is filthy, and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. Not trying to sound sanctimonious, but I would bet more people are worried about the financial impact it might have on their collections than on the company they keep.

I think the only solution is to make this practice so egregious that no one ever tries it again. That would mean ceasing all bidding with anyone associated with shilling. That would also mean ceasing all business with a TPG that contributed to the shilling, as well as making questionable conflict of interest decisions re: grading and selling their own cards. I'd also only bid in increments of one, which will drive down all prices and extend bidding longer, which will also probably drive away prospective bidders.

All in all it seems as though shilling will cost people (AH and TPGs) more money than they ever stood to gain. These opinions are meant to be taken broadly. I am not singling out any one person / company / business.

Keith
 

Keith should go to the sentencing and go into one of his diatribes / commentaries. Would pay to watch that.

I know Flip Filipowski invested in (bought) Mastro, but was there another Filipowski that actively worked there?

Flip's name is Andrew and Andrew is on the list so presumably the same.

right the fact that victim was 'legit' and was able to pay a certain price means that maybe in a direct deal that victim would of maybe paid that same price.....we also went through the scenario that another legit buyer may of been out there but the bidding slot was already taken by the first legit buyer so the card may not of even needed to be shilled..

perhaps the other poster here just thought their cards were worth more than they really are and was hoping for magic with an auction.....its not the first time a seller would overvalue a card and not sell it in a direct deal and then get disappointing results at an AH..

now if the the shilled cards were exactly the same card visually and from the same grade of a card that was submitted and sold for 'next to nothing'..then i think that's a different story..

but in reality the non shilled cards were being sold at legit market price...

Peter,

Thanks. The reason for the question was I vaguely recall talking to a Filipowski on the phone at Mastro's and it sure as heck wouldn't be some guy worth $100+ million. Just can't verify or 100% prove it wrong.

A son or other relative perhaps?

Keep in mind that this is in no way isolated to our hobby. This is a systemic problem with phone/internet auctions across as many hobbies as have them. The fruit is just too low hanging. And, to continue my tree analogy, the roots of the auction industry, TPG industry, and collectors' love for this hobby are so intertwined, that at this point paring back any one too much may kill all three.

I'll be really impressed
 

If anyone who accepts advertising money refuses ads from people (or their employers) mentioned in the list

Rich

One thing for some yutz on eBay supporting his buddy with a few fake bids. Quote another for someone who runs an auction house to be an active participant in fraud. I'd be awfully concerned about class action lawsuits if I was one of these guys.

After all this horror, intrigue, second-guessing, finger pointing and what else, it just occurs to me that the themes underlying the whole sordid Mastro business are just those old human traits of greed, jealousy and hubris which turned what seemed, when I first got involved outside of my boyhood, from a pleasant, harmless hobby into something that has taken on a life of its' own. My one comforting thought is that, where I am right now, they aren't making any more pre-war cards (real ones, anyhow) and I still love looking at them. John

Introduction and Questions
 

Hello All. I am a New Jersey-based semi-serious collector. I am the owner of a few, higher-end graded 1933 & 1934 Goudeys. I am obviously reading this board with keen interest. I collect with my dad, and we enjoy it -- it's nothing more, nothing less.

I was wondering, a few people had posted the links to some of these 2000+ auctions, and the actual products that were auctioned. Do these exist in a database somewhere? Has anyone done the work over the years to identify the exact memorabilia for each of these auctions (maybe DoJ or FBI has published this)? How could I go about identifying each of these auctioned items in a timely fashion?

I have read this document many times the past 48 hours. I have read most, but not all of the replies to this thread. A few things jump out. Yes, there are typos in this document. I believe that's because the filing is from the defense, not the prosecution. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I'm also not as entrenched in this industry as many of you are. I have been Googling as many of the shill bidders to try to unravel and connect the dots across various industries. The vertical integration on the business front is quite astounding, given the audacity that these people have, and the connections they have to other industries! I'm really intrigued to investigate and get to the bottom of this.

Thanks for your help.

As has been mentioned several times, the main document people are focused on was created by the government.

You continue to post in a thread titled "the list (of criminals) is revealed," where the list it's referring to is one you are specifically named as one of the criminals.

-Ryan

Hi,
This should get you started. The archived snapshots may contain the auctions listed, and you can plug in the descriptions.

D@v1D
https://web.archive.org/web/20070101...roauctions.com

+100
I to feel that you should take a little time off Peter. At least your friend Ron has made one comment and gone away. But you continue to act like you were just "used" You are on the list for better or worse and many people think much less of you now. Remember a Lawyer with a big mouth is no worse than one with a small brain. Lick your wounds and stay quiet for awhile...:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Al S@meo@e

b

Thank you for this. I have seen it alluded to -- but not backed up with specific documentation anywhere -- is there any firm documentation that quantifies how much, if any, financial backing Mastro gave during the creation of PSA, and whether he ever owned any equity in that company, and for how long?

Oh, stop. Now you're just being shilly.

x

^^^^ If it walks like a entitled jackass and talks like a entitled jackass. Nice comment on the ask Leon to ban me and see where that gets you. I think a ban from the live auction bst is at least in order.

I did but I guess even stupid Lawyers or let me re phrase that stubborn ones dont take anyone elses advice even when its good advice.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Peter- Have you let Ron or anybody else use your ID to bid in other auctions?

:):):)

As one "Flipper" said to the other......"This shilling is killing me."

Daniel Enright


It's nauseating.

What I'd like, and what doesn't really ever happen, is for the big players - those directly involved in the activity described, or their buddies who hang with them - like Leon Luckey, to get down and dirty with us and describe the activity in full.
Tell us when, how long, what the pathetic reasoning was, and how you managed to excuse the behavior to yourselves and your hangers on, while completely disregarding the financial, emotional, and ethical toll you handed out to so very very very many???
Did you sleep well at night? Did you not have anxiety, or at least a little throw up rising to think about the hundreds and thousands of people you screwed over? Time and again.....

I find it so hard to believe you're sitting there even now, reading all these posts, and pretending in your personal life you're a good person. When you tell your wife or kids something about life, about how you treat people, what's worth fighting for, what's right or wrong.......and you have participated in violating your fellow man - many who in encounters think you are their friends - of money and time and experiences they had heavily invested in.

Why do you remain silent?
Why can't you step up now and show the loved one's in your lives you can be more than the basest of human compulsions?

I'm directing this part at you Leon, and the other Leon's in this hobby.
You've covered for big time hobbyests for many years, telling everyone not to believe everything that was whispered, that was spilled......

Are you too soiled in all this to not want to come clean.
Are those friends you made in this hobby so much better people than the ones who have been ripped off?

I never post on this forum anymore, not for many years, because I got run off.
Told I was too negative.
That's because I asked for people to act in a way that was decent, that could be respected.
Sure, easy to tell one guy to piss off.

How about the foxes come out and tell us how many chickens they ate while we weren't watching.

Your post is nauseating to me!!


I never shilled, never had anyone shill for me. Maybe you should direct your angst towards the culprits? I was a victim and, if the other years were seen, I bet I was a victim many, many more times. And do you really think if I did something wrong that someone (like you) wouldn't have turned on me? I sleep well at night, I hope you do with your ignorant statements. I did stick up for some of the culprits, before evidence was shown, and I was wrong and made mistakes in that area. But I never joined in their reindeer games and don't remember being asked to... Once proven wrong then all bets off and I hope they get what they deserve. BTW, I don't just post about it. I did something. I wrote a letter.. Did you?


And, If BY reading the last 500+ posts doesn't help you understand what went on, I don't think I can help you. As for you not posting anymore, why lie? Over the last 3-4 mos you have posted plenty. Whatever you say is fine just quit lying.

Why in the world is Leon being attacked in this thread? I didn't see his name on that list and I haven't seen him defend anyone that's on it. But I've read plenty of posts about how so and so shouldn't be on the list because there's no way he'd ever do anything like that, only to find out that so and so was guilty. I've been asked to give the benefit of the doubt to guys on the list. I've been told not to jump to conclusions, because perhaps there's some logical explanation for someone's buddy to have bid on 80 of his friend's consignments. Perhaps he just really REALLY liked his collection, right? I've even had to read post after post about the topic of shill bidding by one of the shill bidders named on the list! And the whole time, anyone on the list could very easily come here and defend themselves and tell us about their innocence. But they won't because others are ignorantly defending them, and, more importantly, they are freaking guilty!

If you have issues with Leon, that's fine. In this particular thread, however, I can't understand why those issues would have to come up, other than to deflect form the original title and spirit of the thread. There are people not on the list that I don't like and have ripped me off, but there's no reason to bring them up here. Do you see me bringing up Dave Kohler? No. Why would I bring up Dave Kohler just because it wouldn't have surprised me at all to see Dave Kohler on the list? Even if I think the same list could be made based on a different auction house that would probably have Dave Kohler's name on it, there's still no reason for me to bring Dave Kohler's name up in a thread about a list of criminals that doesn't even have Dave Kohler's name on it? Make sense? Dave Kohler. Dave. Kohler.

Anyway, There seems to be a lot of misdirected anger here. It's not difficult to figure out where it should be directed. THERE IS LITERALLY A LIST OF THEIR NAMES!!!!

Let's start there and move on beyond the list after that. But let's not ignore the list or let it fade into the archive afterlife just because the thieves named in it are too cowardly to come here and speak for themselves.

Don't let this blow over and revert back to business as usual again.

-Ryan

+1. Leon may well be the biggest tool in all the Hobby [ or not :p ] but there is not a shred of information that he was involved in this.

As for the "I did it once but never again and I didn't hurt anyone" nonsense, it is about as believable as "I didn't inhale".

Ryan, you had me laughing out loud literally. Where did you acquire your Phd in sarcasm? Or self taught? I do recall the Dave Kohler situation but won't mention his name!

I read every post.
What you're saying is that you never overheard, never had the conversation, never knew that many of these people whose business you extolled and lent advertising and brought people to their businesses.....never heard knew anything about what was going on?
If so, then good on you. You did absolutely zero wrong.

But I remember a super early thread I posted on, many many years back, and it involved the chopped down Wagner.
From memory you suggested you knew what had happened, as did others, direct from the source, but were unwilling to call them on the carpet for it, to name names.
I suggested that was as poor as any other action, because to allow the criminal act to continue as mere rumor and mythology hurt many and the hobby as a whole.
You went, phhfft, and told me I could mind my own business.

I have gotten that feeling many times reading this board, that there is a sense that some in the know of things that aren't kosher are willing to keep their hobby friends clean of a thorough dousing in the shit.

You're suggesting you're not that person.
OK. I'll accept it at face value.
Strange to me still you have posted such little thought and opinion on this site on such an important hobby topic.

I also made point to address my post to any other 'Leon' type hobbyists who were big player friends of many who have committed the criminal acts that they have. Not just you.

As to my posting.
I was referring to being an active participant on this board, rather than posting the odd picture of a card or piece of memorabilia in a thread every so often.

For a couple of years I read these boards daily and participated regularly in discussion and opinion, most of which I was the learner of - not leader of. It was fun, but became less so because of the caustic nature of some posters.

Interesting that out of what I wrote, all I see is knee jerk reaction around Leon's name, and little to do with wanting to find out more from any and all who could tell it.

Hey Ryan, just quickly.
Do you think that list of people exists in some sort of isolation?
That others didn't participate. That others knew and kept quiet?
Your fixation with a list of names is fine, I'm thinking any and all who know more and are willing to tell more should come and do so - regardless of whether they made your list, list, list, list, list......
See, I can do it too!;)

Look, Leon has made plenty of mistakes in his life and usually owns up to them pretty quickly. And as he has posted, some of his mistakes are pretty severe

But in this specific case

As a buyer, why would Leon want to pay more than other people because his bids were pushed up. Why would he want to spend more money than he has to, so everyone in Chicago could get a new addition to their houses.

And B&L auctions used software to prevent things like this from occurring.

It's OK to call him out for his mistakes, but NOT OK to call him out for things he was the victim on.

Regards
Rich

No idea what happened with Dave Kohler, but I thought this was hilarious.

Saying that, I do think that folks can evolve in their thinking over the years. I mean, hey, most of these auctions were ~9 years ago. There may have been some gray area where someone might have thought if they paid the full BP, it was okay to put a "hidden reserve" on their own items especially if they did not know the max bid for other bidders, especially if this only occurred 1-2 times and wasn't something that happened over and over again. I agree that this was wrong in 2007 and it's wrong now, but sometimes it takes a while for that view to become more obvious. I would be more concerned if these folks were trying to defend shilling as something that should still be okay to do.

I don't want to bring in politics, but there have been plenty of cases where at some point in history, there were laws that were not always in the right and most people's opinions supported those laws. However, in time, people's opinions changed and the laws followed. Therefore, I think folks should be allowed to fess up, especially if they say that they know that what they did in the past wasn't correct, and they realize it now.

Maybe I missed it, but has any other auction houses come out publicly and indicated if they will continue to accept consignments/bids from anyone on the list?

DJ

For all you lawyers out there: Why doesn't any judgment in a case like this include restitution. This would both benefit the injured party as well as hurt the violator where it hurts most. Receiving a jail sentence counted in months as opposed to years, and without any restitution no less, doesn't remotely smell like justice.

If you suspect anyone who's not on the list, tie a pile of PSA-graded cards to them and then throw them in the lake - if they sink and drown, then they are innocent.

:p
Watched the Holy Grail with my 13 and 11 year olds just a couple of weeks ago.....wanted to see if the humour still translated.

It did for me! :D

:):):)

It will ALWAYS translate! I have nothing better to do, so think I'll watch Holy Grail right now.

I think this thread has been very cathartic (thus, necessary) for the board, but I understand how some got their catharticism taken care of quicker than others and are ready to move on. Too bad - it's a discussion board.

I'm officially invoking Leon's Law. If a thread goes on long enough, someone will bring up Leon's past and analogize it to the current topic.

BTW, I think 68Hawk is Peter Nash.

no way...68hawk is too rational to be peter nice

Good question, the answer to which I don't know: my practice is civil law.

Just curious.

With so many cards experiencing such a spectacular run up in price. Are there a lot of these victims that through market appreciation are no longer losing money?

I would think in a case for example of some of these major HOF stars that what were losses at this time have turned into windfall profits.

Ryan,

That reminds me of Gilbert Gottfried when he was roasting Bob Saget on Comedy Central.

David

Or Snoop Dogg in the Justin Bieber roast.

68 Hawk has told me via PM we have met at a few shows over the years

If so, I can verify it's not Mr. Pete Nice whom I have never met. :o

Rich

Removed

O my, broke into absolute fits lauging at the wording ....."If so....":D
I've never been so underwhelmingly verified. :o
I appreciated your perspective Rich, all the best.

You should have left that Ed. I got a good laugh. GOD BLESS:)