Encountered this line of thinking recently.

X sells Y raw card for cash and slabbed card. Y subs raw card and gets an A back. X then discloses they cleaned the card. X takes the card back and pays back Y fully vut cracked their to clean that one too. Y is still out cards they would've never given up if it had been disclosed. X will clean card and try and make more money still with both the first and traded card.

Better to ask forgiveness than permission (disclose the cleaning).

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I don't believe there is any deception going on at all for most improvements. People are simply fixing minor flaws on their cards just like they would fix anything else that they own. I think it's similar to selling a used car. If that car was considered "totaled" by an insurance company, then that's a material fact and it needs to be disclosed, but if it just had a small fender dent and you were able to pop it back out with a suction cup, then there's nothing material to disclose. Obviously, the conversation changes if we're talking about trimming, but Kurt isn't doing stuff like that.

If I pretend words and phrases mean whatever I want them to mean instead of the actual meaning and use circular logic, I can argue literally anything.

We all know the obvious. These sellers do not mention their alterations because they know perfectly well it hurts the value. They will insist otherwise, for the equally obvious reasons.

I think you're justifying it, not explaining it? What harm would there be in disclosing, given it's obvious some people do still care? Why not err on the side of full candor, if as you say it's inconsequential it won't affect price.

If someone bumps into your car in a parking lot with a shopping cart, and it leaves a black mark on your car but you're able to buff it out when you get home and the car looks as good as new, did you commit fraud when you later traded it in at the dealership without disclosing it? Serious question. And if you think this isn't a perfect parallel to someone cleaning a card and not disclosing it, then you're on an island.

I may be on an island, but I have lots of company still. :eek: Big island. Hell, Australia is an island.

I know which card/s you're referring to. I agree, the seller should not have sold it to the buyer without it having passed grading first, and after having some so, he shouldn't have done anything to the other cards until the buyer got it back from grading.

That said, the reason that particular card was rejected had nothing to do with it having been cleaned. It also later passed grading - and at a higher grade than he guaranteed to the buyer at that.

🥱 funny the seller/fraudster said the same thing about why it didn't pass grading when both PSA and SGC didn't give it a number. Neither of you actually know.

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As I mentioned above, it's just not worth the drama for most people. They're just not interested in battling with these guys on social media who disagree with their viewpoint. They're not trying to be deceptive, they simply think your viewpoint isn't worth acknowledging. They do not see it as an alteration.

Please don't twist this into a political debate, but there's a similar conversation going on in society regarding people who wish to identify as cats (or foxes, furries, dragons, etc.) and who demand that others refer to them as such. There are some who choose to support them and who will refer to them as dragons, and then there are others, who view them as delusional and choose not to participate. Sometimes people just see things differently. And in this case, people who clean their cards simply disagree with your assessment that doing so renders them altered. It's not about deceiving you, it's about completely disregarding your viewpoint.

You don't know what you're talking about. I've seen the card in person. Have you?

It passed grading at SGC the first time. The seller didn't like the grade, so they sent it to PSA. That's when PSA rejected it. They gave it an N5 designation ("altered stock"), not an N7 which would be for "evidence of cleaning". The reason it was rejected had nothing to do with him cleaning it. The flaw that they were looking at was already there when he bought it. The seller then asked me to examine the card for him because he couldn't find anything wrong with it. I looked at it and showed him what PSA was looking at and I advised him that it would likely pass grading at SGC, but that it wasn't a guarantee. It's a flaw that different graders disagree about how to grade. Based on my opinion, and the fact that SGC had previously graded it as numeric, he chose to sell it raw and guaranteed the buyer a particular grade with SGC. The buyer sent the card to SGC and they graded it as altered. I scolded the seller, who then owned up to his mistake and promptly refunded the buyer. I then learned that it was actually a partial trade deal and that he had cracked open one of the buyers cards already, before the deal was finalized, and I scolded him again. After refunding the buyer, he regraded it, and it passed grading again.

Calling the seller a "fraudster" is ridiculous. He made some stupid choices, then owned up to his mistakes and promptly refunded the buyer. That's not what fraudsters do.

I beg to differ on this particular point. This is PRECISELY what smart fraudsters do. They appease those who call them out on their fraud so they can continue committing it on the masses who never call them on it/discover it.

Comparing juicing up baseball cards to fixing cars is absurd. G’day, mate.


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G1911 said it perfectly. It's all about money, and pretending it's anything else is obtuse. Sellers who alter cards (for the pedantic I use the term to include trimming, coloring, soaking or cleaning) NEVER disclose they've altered a card because they know it will crater the resale value. If it's really immaterial, it would be a matter-of-fact detail in the description.

You can rationalize it a hundred different ways, but until I meet a seller who actually discloses their alterations (still waiting), you can't convince me it's anything other than financially motivated deception.

Peter_Spaeth, it's getting awful crowded on this island. I'm starting to think we might be the ones on the mainland.

They gave it altered stock and your telling me cleaning had nothing to do with it [emoji38][emoji38][emoji38][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji23][emoji23][emoji38][emoji38]

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Yes, that's precisely what I'm telling you. N7 grade is for cleaning. N5 is for altered stock. They're not the same thing. Maybe learn how to grade cards if you want to engage in a discussion about grading cards? Or don't. Up to you.

Isn't the N5 altered stock usually from obvious pressing?

For some people, I have no doubt that it's all about money. But for others, it's definitely not. But even for those who are trying to profit from it, what difference does it make? Incentives are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is whether or not what they're doing is OK. And like it or not, the grading companies all allow you to clean your cards. They always have, and always will. Again, trimming, recoloring, that's something else. But Kurt doesn't do that stuff.

Which is part of the cleaning process as well.

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The most common reason N5 is given us due to a card being kept in a screw down.

No, it's definitely not.

Yes, it is.

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Again, you don't know what you're talking about. I could write a book on the subject. You've never even soaked a card. But keep talking.

Expose yourself as the card alteration expert you are. I don't care.

Those who shout the loudest have the most to hide. Seems like on this subject you've gone out of your way to disagree with everyone and tell them they're on an island when really, it's just you and your collection of altering friends and altered cards.

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There are many videos on Kurt’s YouTube channel where he uses his wizard water to not just “clean” but to also remove scratches, dents, and creases.


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And Kurt's videos are not continuous so who knows if he is doing other things when the camera is not taking the video. I am not saying he is but seems highly questionable the results he gets by spraying some unknown substance on a card, placing it under weight and having flaws vanish.

It's all good!! But God forbid it gets disclosed.

There’s no need to disclose; it’s like popping out a dent on your Civic.


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Yes, used car buyers definitely value originality. :) LOL. That analogy showed a true lack of understanding of the ethos of card collecting, at least as it used to be.

+1

All we need now is Car(d)fax.


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But a heck of a lot of effort is being made to explain why disclosing is justified. Such BS.

As it still is. It's a vocal minority trying to justify their fraud. Even this thread's transcript only shows like 2-3 folks actually arguing against disclosure.

Votes in favor of non-disclosure are up, but it does not appear to be anything approaching a majority, though unlike some here I can't pretend to speak for everyone else. Blowout is dominated by the new guys and even that place was very much against the massive fraud and non-disclosures. It's small circles of scammers in which this is a majority view.

Clearly the differences in both camps are nothing more than perspective, as snowman points out: "Sometimes people just see things differently. And in this case, people who clean their cards simply disagree with your assessment that doing so renders them altered. It's not about deceiving you, it's about completely disregarding your viewpoint."

"Your honor, I did not conceive of taking that man's wallet against his will to be robbery. I simply disagree with the assessment that taking it against his will constituted robbery. It's not about being dishonest, it's about completely disregarding your viewpoint."

It’s not a crime if “I” think it’s okay. :D

I have nothing to hide. That's why I'm on here openly discussing what I do. If you want to learn something and are interested in the topic, even if you disagree with it, then you would benefit from listening to what I have to say. Ask any questions you want. I'll answer them honestly.

However, if you instead just want to run your mouth, then have at it. There's plenty of room on my ignore list for ignorant trolls.

Just read through the comments on this page. It should be quite clear why most people have no interest in disclosing this stuff. You have to have rhino skin to come on here and discuss this stuff openly. Most people don't have it.

And yet, alterations need not be disclosed because nobody cares. Strange how these can both be true!

As I've mentioned numerous times, I disclose alterations. I also disclose hidden flaws that are not alterations (something very few people in this hobby do). Here are just a handful of random listings I've sold where you can see these disclosures listed in the title (and which are again mentioned in the descriptions).

CardFax - You might want to quickly Trademark that.


.

155. Shuncestry.com (also Conmancestry.com) (theoretical)
A site that examines the ‘DNA’ of a card to see if, before you agree to buy it, it has ever spent time with PWCC or other notorious card doctors.

You mean like eBay, Probstein, Heritage (you do know they have their own in-house card doctors, right?), Goldin, REA, Mile High, LotG, and literally everyone else?

Many people do not understand the extent of the issue ... even after all the exposure.

Please clarify what you mean with this sentence.

Thanks,
-Al

He has no idea what he means with defamatory statements like these... just blowing smoke as usual. The amount of credence that people give him here is beyond me. :confused:

Other than the Heritage comment, I just took him to mean that altered cards are everywhere and nobody can stop it completely, so to suggest it is/was only PWCC with the problem is not accurate.

Maybe that's what he meant, but it sure seems like an accusation. Of course the irony is he sees nothing wrong with it so he's "accusing" people of doing nothing wrong, even though it's something...

Snowman, please address this because Al deserves better.

Ebay was the first one listed. Surely he wasn't accusing ebay of doctoring cards. I think he's just saying, in the worlds of the old Converse commercial, they're everywhere. But let's see if he comes back and clarifies.

Apparently, posting my little old humorous 'Collectorism' from years ago in response to someone's 'Cardfax' post (because of the obvious similarity) triggered him. So out of character!! :D

Yes, this is precisely what I meant. No auction house is immune to consigners sending them altered cards. They're literally everywhere. There's just no way around it.

I was not saying that ebay or Al (or anyone on his team) is altering cards.

The only auction house I claimed was doing anything to the cards themselves was Heritage, because I know with absolute certainty that they regularly clean cards before submitting them for grading. I am not, however, accusing them of altering cards. I have no evidence that they've ever done so, and I don't believe that they would (again, cleaning is not altering). All I know for sure is that they clean them and make minor improvements by soaking them.

Triggered?

I made a simple comment that shouldn't have been difficult to decode. You said something about PWCC selling altered cards and I was merely pointing out the fact that no auction house is immune from this.