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-   -   Will you get vaccinated against COVID once it's available? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=286638)

G1911 05-19-2021 12:26 PM
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packs 05-19-2021 12:27 PM
As has been explained ad nauseum the vaccine is not 100% effective and you will not know it didn't work for you until you get sick.

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104697)
As has been explained ad nauseum the vaccine is not 100% effective and you will not know it didn't work for you until you get sick.
95 at best and likely that will go down with mutations, I believe.

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104694)
The risk has been explained. I don't have a problem with someone not wanting to get the vaccine. But I do have a problem with that person standing next to me without a mask on. If you mask up, no issue.
In other words, you don't trust the effectiveness your vaccine?

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104699)
In other words, you don't trust the effectiveness your vaccine?
It appears to greatly improves one's odds, but isn't a guarantee.

packs 05-19-2021 12:31 PM
What does trust have to do with anything? I'm told over and over again that it is not 100% effective. If you don't want to get the vaccine, fine. But since you already know it's not 100% effective for everyone who does, what is so wrong with wearing a mask if you're not going to be vaccinated?

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104702)
What does trust have to do with anything? I'm told over and over again that it is not 100% effective. If you don't want to get the vaccine, fine. But since you already know it's not 100% effective for everyone who does, what is so wrong with wearing a mask if you're not going to be vaccinated?
God forbid anyone inconvenience himself one iota.

G1911 05-19-2021 12:35 PM
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packs 05-19-2021 12:36 PM
None of the posts have been about forcing a vaccine on you. The posts have been about wearing a mask if you choose not to be vaccinated.

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104704)
So I should take a vaccine that was rushed out the door and is still not fully approved or tested, because you don’t think it’s efficacy is good enough for you, and my health choices for myself are not as important as me making health choices for you?

I guess it’s because I am a horrible young person that this makes no sense whatsoever.
What a crock. All packs said is if you're going to stand next to him please wear a mask. Your initial post made some very good points but you aren't sustaining it. Total straw man.

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104702)
What does trust have to do with anything? I'm told over and over again that it is not 100% effective. If you don't want to get the vaccine, fine. But since you already know it's not 100% effective for everyone who does, what is so wrong with wearing a mask if you're not going to be vaccinated?
Actually, I do still where a mask most places, but not all.

But for the sake of your argument, let's assume I never wear a mask. Why is the burden on me? If YOUR vaccine isn't 100% effective and YOU'RE concerned about still contracting it, shouldn't YOU be the one wearing the mask? :confused:

packs 05-19-2021 12:38 PM
I didn't make the vaccine. I'm asking you to wear a mask out of respect for me and everyone else around you. I wear my mask for the same reason even though I am vaccinated.

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104709)
I didn't make the vaccine. I'm asking you to wear a mask out of respect for me and everyone else around you. I wear my mask for the same reason even though I am vaccinated.
And how much longer would you like me to wear it?

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104708)
Actually, I do still where a mask most places, but not all.

But for the sake of your argument, let's assume I never wear a mask. Why is the burden on me? If YOUR vaccine isn't 100% effective and YOU'RE concerned about still contracting it, shouldn't YOU be the one wearing the mask? :confused:
The burden is on you just like the rest of us because you are part of society, like it or not.

packs 05-19-2021 12:42 PM
I don't think it's predicated on length of time. We're talking about mutual respect for people in public at this moment.

G1911 05-19-2021 12:48 PM
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vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104715)
What’s a crock is this one way street wherein I have some ethical obligation to make my decisions based on your fears. The second you alter your life to suit my narratives, I will do the same for you.
Peter / Packs,

When have you ever made a decision about your own health and thought about how it might effect others? Name a time. I'll wait.

packs 05-19-2021 12:53 PM
When I found out there was a novel communicable disease I wore a mask when in public for the benefit of myself and others. Something I continue to do.

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104719)
When I found out there was a novel communicable disease I wore a mask when in public for the benefit of myself and others. Something I continue to do.
I'm talking about before this pandemic. Do I need to reword the question?

Pre-pandemic, when have you ever made a decision about your own health and thought about how it might effect others? Name a time. I'll wait.

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 12:56 PM
Did you ever wear a mask during flu season to protect others? :confused:

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 12:57 PM
Do you cover your entire body so that a mosquito can't bite you and transmit Zika virus or West Nile virus to others?

packs 05-19-2021 12:57 PM
Oh, excellent point. I get flu shots every year. I'm also a big believer in practicing safe sex.

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 12:59 PM
Since second hand smoke is a known cause of lung cancer, did you ever smoked a cigarette, cigar, pipe or anything else in public?

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104717)
Peter / Packs,

When have you ever made a decision about your own health and thought about how it might effect others? Name a time. I'll wait.
Until the pandemic, I haven't had to. Since the pandemic, despite thinking I probably have very good natural immunity based on my history, diet, etc., I've worn a mask any time I have gone out where there are other people. I certainly don't want to unwittingly infect anyone, and am willing to endure a minor inconvenience for their sake. And no this isn't virtue signaling, just an answer to the question.

G1911 05-19-2021 01:00 PM
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vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104725)
I get flu shots every year.
And as I've already stated, so do I.

But that wasn't the question.

They say the Covid vaccine is 95% effective. The flu vaccine is only 40-60% effective. The question was, do you wear a mask during flu season to protect others?

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2104730)
Until the pandemic, I haven't had to. Since the pandemic, despite thinking I probably have very good natural immunity based on my history, diet, etc., I've worn a mask any time I have gone out where there are other people. I certainly don't want to unwittingly infect anyone, and am willing to endure a minor inconvenience for their sake. And no this isn't virtue signaling, just an answer to the question.
In other words, you don't give a shit about people so you don't wear a mask during flu season and are willing to pass it on, right?

packs 05-19-2021 01:02 PM
No, I get the flu shot. I told you that.

Also, your question was what health decisions do I make with myself and others in mind.

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104734)
In other words, you don't give a shit about people so you don't wear a mask during flu season and are willing to pass it on, right?
When did any public health authority ever tell the public it should wear masks during flu season to control transmission? Feels like a fake point to me.

G1911 05-19-2021 01:06 PM
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vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2104736)
When did any public health authority ever tell the public it should wear masks during flu season to control transmission? Feels like a fake point to me.
Hmmm...I don't know. I'll actually have to research that.

What I do know is that masks were recommended in 2009 for H1N1. You wore one, right?

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104738)
Is it about the directives issued by the state, or protecting others? If masks save lives from Covid then they would also save them from the Flu in 2019. So you think one only has this ethical obligation if the state orders people to wear them? That is, it is not purely about some ethical standard you claim, but about following the governments orders?
Why the hell would I have had reason to even think about this in 2019? Pure hindsight argument combined with a straw man about the state. Give me a break. You started off well but you've gone way downhill.

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104739)
Hmmm...I don't know. I'll actually have to research that.

What I do know is that masks were recommended in 2009 for H1N1. You wore one, right?
I don't recall that at all.

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2104741)
I don't recall that at all.
You don't recall wearing one or you don't recall the recommendation?

Either way, the point I was trying to make is that until now neither of you ever gave a shit about anyone else when making a healthcare choice for yourself. Get over your self-righteousness.

G1911 05-19-2021 01:13 PM
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Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 01:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104742)
You don't recall wearing one or you don't recall the recommendation?

Either way, the point I was trying to make is that until now neither of you ever gave a shit about anyone else when making a healthcare choice for yourself. Get over your self-righteousness.
The recommendation.

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104743)
Because people died from the flu. Just like people die from Covid. If your argument is that I have an ethical obligation to wear a mask because you are scared and your vaccine is only 95% effective, but you are at no greater risk than a flue patient in 2019, it is fair to ask what you did when the danger was also tiny but present. It is you who used the excuse that the government didn’t order this for the flu. It is fair to then ask if our standard is ethical or based upon the orders of the state then. It seems that under your last argument I have to wear a mask around people depending on what governmental body has jurisdiction in that place and what they have directed, not the life-saving argument you first used.

I might be young, maybe I’m going downhill, but at least I don’t claim you have to live YOUR life according to MY whims.
But the flaw in your reasoning is that I had no reason to know or think about any of this in 2019, at least I was not aware of any public discourse on the subject.

Plus a lot of people haven't been vaccinated and are still at whatever their baseline risk was, so (assuming for argument's sake masks cut down on transmission) you're still exposing them even if you're not exposing me very much.

G1911 05-19-2021 01:22 PM
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Huysmans 05-19-2021 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104743)
Because people died from the flu. Just like people die from Covid. If your argument is that I have an ethical obligation to wear a mask because you are scared and your vaccine is only 95% effective, but you are at no greater risk than a flue patient in 2019, it is fair to ask what you did when the danger was also tiny but present. It is you who used the excuse that the government didn’t order this for the flu. It is fair to then ask if our standard is ethical or based upon the orders of the state then. It seems that under your last argument I have to wear a mask around people depending on what governmental body has jurisdiction in that place and what they have directed, not the life-saving argument you first used.

I might be young, maybe I’m going downhill, but at least I don’t claim you have to live YOUR life according to MY whims.
You're making the best points by far here, and showing that youth and intelligent reasoning are not mutually exclusive.

... ignore the straw man and "going downhill" comments, they speak of the inability of others here to argue your points...

packs 05-19-2021 01:24 PM
We're talking about signs of respect not living life as the perfect example of humanity. At this moment in time, it is respectful to wear a mask in public, the same way it would be respectful for you to smoke your cigarette outside instead of in my living room. It is possible to accomplish both being respectful and doing what you'd like to do. If you don't want to get the vaccine, totally fine. Wear a mask around me and do whatever you like away from me. Why fight against that?

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2104746)
The recommendation.
CDC article from 2009...

https://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/masks.htm

I'll infer that didn't give a crap about the health of others and failed to wear a mask as recommended by the CDC.

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104754)
Wear a mask around me and do whatever you like away from me. Why fight against that?
You just gave yourself up. It's all about YOU! If it were about others, you would say to wear a mask around them too.

packs 05-19-2021 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104756)
You just gave yourself up. It's all about YOU! If it were about others, you would say to wear a mask around them too.
I say you because in this case it's someone specific who doesn't want to wear a mask. I've already said I wear mine even with a vaccination. I don't need to convince myself to do that.

G1911 05-19-2021 01:31 PM
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Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104750)
You are unaware that thousands of people die from the flu every year, especially seniors and those with immune system diseases? The fact that the flu can be lethal (more lethal than Covid if you are 95% immune to Covid) is completely new to you?

What a crock. The difference is that it wasn’t a virtue signal of moral superiority in 2019.
Of course I understand that, but tell me who in 2019 was suggesting I wear a mask to protect others? And if nobody was, why would I have had reason to come to that conclusion myself?

packs 05-19-2021 01:34 PM
I'm sorry but that doesn't really make a lot of sense. I'm wearing a mask as a precaution for both of us. How can I be disrespectful in that situation?

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104755)
CDC article from 2009...

https://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/masks.htm

I'll infer that didn't give a crap about the health of others and failed to wear a mask as recommended by the CDC.
You should actually read what you link to.

In community and home settings, the use of facemasks and respirators generally are not recommended.

G1911 05-19-2021 01:37 PM
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G1911 05-19-2021 01:38 PM
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packs 05-19-2021 01:39 PM
You've lost me. If you ask me to smoke a cigarette at your gas station I'm going to decline and it won't be because I don't respect your desires.


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