Bash SGC. Seriously.

Dude please. Bash Beckett, yes I have but my only experience with SGC was great.

In terms of Bobby W. The finale of that thread says it all.

Well said David James. I am glad someone besides me recognizes that.

Thank you sir.

Is this the dude that got caught up in the from a sealed case fiasco with the wax tray's?

No? LOL....I have never even bought a wax tray or a sealed case. I once bought some unopened Fleer basketball from Huggins & Scott that PSA board members were no good, because I didn't buy them from BBCE. I promptly pulled about 5 Jordan cards from the packs....ROTFLMAO :D Does that count for anything?

Not you. I realize you are the guy with the lizard on his shoulder.

David James. Is he the guy that led the break of the 1980 Topps FASC wax tray?

Nope. Not me. Once again, you're wrong. But, hey, at least you're consistent.

I have a few questions for veteran collectors and dealers, as I am just a simple business owner who collects but has never spent more than $800 on anything hobby related. And btw, I'm not, in any way, trying to mitigate was has happened. One of the names on that list makes me believe I was probably a victim myself once.

But as veterans of the hobby, when you placed bids on high profile stuff at major auctions, wasn't there a voice in the back of your noggins that told you it was very likely some sort of shilling was occurring, yet you bid anyway because if the price was what you deemed fair, you told yourself you could live with it? Don't even us amateurs believe that when we're bidding on ebay?

Are you veterans really shocked at all by any of this? If you're in this hobby to make a living, it's just way too easy to cheat, and I imagine for many it becomes almost a necessity for survival. The rewards far, far outweigh the punishment. And it's been that way for decades. And frankly, I don't see how this changes anything. So one or two high profile guys do a little jail time. Do you think for one minute that's going to prevent shilling in the future? I bet there are some who hope prices drop at the major auction houses just so they can swoop in for the bargains! And do veteran collectors with large holdings really mind if prices are artificially inflated? I wonder.

The people here are incredibly knowledgable about this hobby. This is an amazing website - it's one of the very few (but by far the best) places on the internet which acts as any sort of check to the rampant dishonesty in this hobby. Just reading the stuff here has saved me a ton of money, and I appreciate the efforts enough to buy many here an adult beverage if I ever ran into you! But should it come down to one free website run by people who care to police the entire industry? I just don't understand why no one has ever put together some sort of association that polices this hobby. It's way overdue, and obviously necessary.

This is just a 3 year window, no doubt there's much more. Wonder what will come out of all this after the fact? And what will the current companies do to those currently mentioned on the bad boy list. Example, will the CEO of PSA take action against the 3 autograph experts currently employed? And what will this do in regards to Forman, the other BIG company? Still a few others mentioned in the AH business that hasn't stepped forward. Will they lose business in form of bidders/consignors? Time will tell I guess. Quite disgusting to say the least!

Relative to taking actions against those currently employed, if they want to regain any level of credibility there is only one thing to do. Something that I would think all our employers would do instantly upon proof of illegal or criminal action. The sooner the better. No tears.

David James was right. David Peck only comes over here for drama. And harassment. Well....I guess he found it in this thread. And since the PSA board has died so much, he wants to stir the pot here.

Maybe the industry leaders should appoint a respected public figure to step in and clean up the auctions and 3rd party grading companies. You know, appoint a judge Landis figure to be Commissioner of Sports Collecting. Anyone who is banned for life could surreptitiously collect Black Sox memorabilia. Any suggestions?

I was thinking the same thing Scott. It made me think of this scene in Casablanca. How is anyone really surprised?

Peter,

I am sure you don't care about this post. My inbox is full, so if you choose to reply, you can do it here. If you don't that is fine as well. In late, 2014, when I was having an admitted meltdown and several on the board provided positive feedback and counsel, you were snarky and mean in the post. You have that right. It is an embarrassing thread for me to go back and read in retrospect and I deserved every word.

I admired you and your knowledge of the hobby. I admired your collection. On June 4th, Brent from PWCC posted. You had some very pointed criticism about his business practices - up to and including comments about hidden reserves. I have avoided PWCC in recent months - primarly because of my respect for you and the feedback that you provided.

Perhaps there are shades of gray in the hidden reserve that you placed on the lot. I tend to disagree, but, as we have established, I am low-end post war guy with some drama queen tendencies, so my opinion doesn't matter. However, If I were Brent at PWCC, I would take issue with the way that you were quick to smoke out his perceived issues while quickly sweeping this under the rug.





http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=206854

reading this after the fact, has some irony.


In reply to post 26
(post 27)


From Post 125


KEVIN AILES

Not even the smallest bit. This hobby was loaded with bad actors when I got into it in the late 80's, the 90's were the same, and the 21st century has been no different. It's very unlikely to change even after this 'revelation', which really can't be surprising to anyone who was actively in the hobby during 2007-2009.

There is one very good thing to come out of this, that Bill Mastro has permanently exited the hobby. In my opinion, all of the other players combined can't compete with the damage he did by himself.

Bill

Bill,

Not for a second do I believe Bill has exited the hobby. We may not see his name but it is my opinion (and it is just that, an opinion) that he is still "in the hobby" somehow.

"Never" Or at least "RARELY"
 

Beastmode offers some good advice (see boldface and enlarged type for added emphasis). Perhaps not "never" but certainly "rarely" will one be a victim of shilling, if followed.

Moving post this forward.

I know most of you guys have thousands, maybe hundereds of thousands tied up in your collection. But this hits us lower grade collectors too.

My $100 card is the same as your $1000 when you consider expendable income.

Personally, the SGC news bothers me most. They are who I use (I have a T206 sub there now). I'm kinda rattled with all this information that has come to light.
And, ironically, when I pulled this page up, an ad that said "Trust SGC" was at the top.:eek:

To the two that has come forward and told their story, I thank you. What you did was unethical, but you aren't running from it.

But, from what I've read, it's like being shown pictures of your wife in bed with another man, and being told:
I can explain.
It's not what it looks like.
It didn't mean anything.

Wrong is wrong and you have to pay the consequence. Whatever that turns out to be.

You'll be over all this in a month.

An xls version of the Govt's Exhibit for those looking for an easier format

The main point I have seen others try to make is that even when following this advice, one can still be a victim of shilling if what they end up paying is higher than it would have been without the shilled bids. Just because you are willing to pay that amount, or would have paid more, doesn't mean you're not a victim. Plus the bar is set that much higher the next time the same card comes up for sale.

Great spread sheet. It only makes me sicker to be able to sort this and see the involvement of each individual.

I wonder how many shill bidders will show up to the next National.... probably all that can because they'll have no remorse or some story indicating their innocence.

I'm hoping someone compiles a list of all these butt heads that shilled and their current affiliation in the hobby with an auction house and business. I can see a few prominent auction house names in there. I guess I shouldn't be so surprised. :eek:

You can rest assured that if I ever sleep with any of your wives, I won't be able to explain and it'll be exactly what it looks like :D

I only saw Kens name as a consignor not a shill person.

Exactly. It should not be that hard a concept to understand. That being said, I do not get very bothered if I win an auction at or below what I was willing to pay, even if shilling is shown. That does not mean I find it acceptable behavior to shill, however--far from it.

No sir, I won't. Some, maybe most, might be. But the memory remains.

No humor allowed. Post reported. :D

"Wives"? You mean there's no limit??

Remember, HA has clearly stated that they reserve the right to bid up auctions if they feel the price isn't high enough. They may even just win the item themselves if they feel they can sell it directly for more. This was per Chris Ivy.

Ken

Best post ever. Because of this great post, I read all subsequent posts in a Russian accent. The humor has made all this a tiny bit easier to stomach.

As I mentioned in Post # 15.

All these shills bother me especially the one done against me. But the one that really bothers me is T.J. Schwartz. He was the only reason that I kept subscribing to SCD. Always enjoyed his column "On Your Side". Or should it now be called "Shill You". I just sent off a check on Weds to renew that publication. If I only knew, I would have not renewed.

Moving forward, I think one way to stop some of this shilling would be if an AH put out a list after each auction showing the same type of info that was used in Mastro's case. Knowing that your name will be put out there might make you think twice about shilling another auction.

Bill,

If the guy used shill bidding to boost his profits, what makes you think when he gets out he wont shill his advice?

Can we please put an end to this stupid "stay within your budget and be patient, and you will never be a "victim" of shilling again." argument? It's complete BS.

If there's an item that you are willing to pay $5,000 for (with that being within your budget) but legitimate bidding goes no higher than $2,000, you should win the item at he next increment above that. Just over $2,000. If you are shilled (and I'm not talking about placing a max bid) up to or near your max, you will still win the item for an amount that was within your budget. But the market has determined that it's a $2,000 item. You'll find that out when you go try to sell it and lose $3,000. Because you were a "victim" of dirtbags who got rich by stealing from many of us in the hobby.

If that situation happens in a private sale or at a show, it's on the buyer. If someone is selling a $2,000 item for $5,000 and you buy it, it's your own fault. In an auction, it shouldn't be unreasonable to assume that you are bidding against a legitimate buyer. Unfortunately, we all know that with very few exceptions, that is not a safe assumption.

It's stupid and incorrect to assume that anyone who was shilled was desperate or caught up in the moment with no self-control. It's equally false to assume that you can only be shilled if you set a max bid. I do not set max bids because I've always believed it was an invitation to be shilled. Which it clearly is, with certain auction houses. So there are plenty of us on that list that were victims in spite of your guarantee that we couldn't be shilled in those circumstances. So let's stop with that, k?

-Ryan

You could cancel the check. Tell him to "shill off."

+1 your almighty dollar will speak volumes. Where you decide to spend your money is the best way to make a statement.

How do I know Mastro is out of the hobby? Of course, I don't, although he and his lawyer did tell a judge that before he was sentenced. You never can count anyone out of this hobby...

It's well worth re-reading this thread for a reminder of Mastro's dishonesty. The shill bidding was his idea, he promoted it within his company, and he altered items in order to defraud collectors.

Bill

In the past year, I had a red infield B18 listed for sale on eBay. A person named Bill Mastro made me a low ball offer on it. I'm dead serious.

Thanks Bill, I know that thread well, and I meant nothing bad by what I wrote. It's just like "mob" guys that go to jail, they're still deep in it while behind bars :p

Greg

So, you are on the list too? Victims, that is.

Egad! Does this make Mastro the Godfather? Worse is will we hear the Mazurka when he leaves prison?

What are you implying with this comment? Are you stating the only unethical people on the list are the shillers and not the consignors?

The consignors' items were shilled because they wanted it shilled and worked with someone else to get it shilled (just as Peter described).

lol😂

Nicely said.

Price gouging, whether it's your local gas station, a contractor or otherwise, is basically the same thing. Ripping people off. Illegal, too.

Wow. Peter's remarks are, well wow. You read them and decide.

I've known for years. But yes, on the list. Not the Douchebag side of it. The other side.

-Ryan

Gotcha Ryan.
But you said, you've known for years? If you care to explain, how did you know?

I'll send you a private message later.

+1, I completely agree with this.