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If having a T206 Honus Wagner in an 8 holder that a high percentage of the hobby thinks is trimmed has not hurt PSA, then having an overgraded Art Shell in a 10 holder is certainly not going to hurt PSA. I don't think PSA is going to do anything, and if it does, it will simply point to its guarantee and say that if the owner has a question he can always have the card reviewed by the graders.
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Peter- overgraded cards never ever get resubmitted. And undergraded cards always do, sometimes more than once. That's the grading game.
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You sent them in to get a lower grade? |
I would say the number of people looking to get a high grade card lowered is very small indeed.
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tiger8mush
they will not give refunds simply because you may have different standards. PSA will allow a 6 with hairline winkles or creases. i agree on cards that otherwise look mint i dont on cards with any wear or other problems
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It is impossible to determine how 'accurate' TPGs are because grading is inherently subjective, especially when counting the angels on the pinhead that differentiates between grades or between half-grades. It is all subjective.
I once tried to measure my cards for technical compliance with PSA standards to cherry pick the best possible grade. All I could think to do was to measure the cards as closely as possible. I put a metric ruler on 1980 Topps cards looking for evenness of borders and lack of tilt on the card fronts. I found one card that was almost perfectly centered [less than a millimeter variation in size of white borders side to side and top to bottom] and not tilted [less than a millimeter variation from one end of the colored band on the card to the other. Razor sharp, perfect printing, clean everywhere, no discernable flaws. It got a 9 from PSA. Why a 9 and not a 10? I have no idea. And just to spread the love around, I sent in this card to SGC and got a 98, again I have no idea why 98 and not 96 or why a 98 but not a 100: http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...%20Jackman.jpg There's no logic to it and no reasonable rational explanation. On that day, at that time, the card was a 10 but not a "10+" in the view of the grader(s) who looked at it. As for people who wish to collect based on the subjective opinions of third parties, doesn't bother me as long as they respect the rights of others to not collect that way. When they start running down collectors who prefer their cards in slightly 'loved' condition for whatever reason, then we can talk about how they are being manipulated. |
I don't believe that cards go through all those hands, no way and PSA can say what they want. I have proof that this just does not hapen these days.
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the thread is dead
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bump the thread is dead
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Paul's best song post-Beatles.
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I think part of the problem is that it was not two cards that got upgraded but like 6-7 and all from the same ebay account pang21, the Shell was just the worst of the bunch but the 76 Ryan from a 9 to a 10 was just as bad imo. I can understand PSA making a mistake on a grade, it happens, but one person getting a bunch like that and on an in person service at the National makes me a little uneasy.
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Paul's best song post-Beatles:
Maybe I'm amazed. |
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http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1961-Topps-57...Wpg~~60_57.JPG http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1961-Topps-57...!SQ~~60_57.JPG |
Dan are you sure those are the same card, I think I see some different markings.
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Grading shouldn't be done by humans, but by computers.
A computer can scan a card, plot 10,000 points of data, plot all the tobacco stains, plot the creases, paper loss, centering ratio, and come up with a numerical grade. Accurate 100% of the time. |
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I can't say positively either way. This was originally posted on Post#130 by "vintagetoppsguy". It would help a lot if we could see the backs of both cards. |
Corners look different to me, and the 9 has a prominent black speck just in from the border on the top left that does not appear to be there on the 8.
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They are definitely the same card. Here are the bottom right corners blown up. PSA 8 http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...guy/Mays8A.jpg PSA 9 http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...guy/Mays9A.jpg Notice two things. 1.) How the bottom corners hook down on both cards. 2.) The two indentions on the right border in the same spots. You can only see so far up the right border because it's hidden by the slab on the 9, but you can see enough of it to know they are the same card. Also look at the same corner ding on the bottom left border in the scans Dan posted above. |
The top one looks like it has a slight rounding at the very tip of the corner that the bottom one doesn't have?
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There was a computer grading company
there was a computer that graded cards, don't remember the company. I think they had more fakes in their holders than anyone. Percentage wise anyways. The computer would only grade as accurately as it was programmed. PSA needs to work on QC in my opinion. Also the individual that thinks Joe O should look at all the 10s? That is completely irrational and is not his job. You want to say Reza should, Id kind of agree on high dollar or vintage 10s, but this still is probably not feasible due to their high volume, the isn't SGC's submission totals PSA gets waaaay more cards to grade than SGC.
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You can't ever replace the human eye though. The machine can't tell if there is good trimming or authenticity of a card. A 25x scan of the card for graphing like a finger print for identifying the card and any alterations. You never know if the card night get stolen and cracked then submitted later. This will detect if the card has been reported stolen or not. A 10x scan for grading reasons as well as a dimension scan with the factory/know variances for the particular cards. A backlight scan for alteration detection. Once the grade is given the slab will be barcoded for information log. If the card is determined altered it will also have a 2-3 digit code below the graded area for use to know what was done and where it was found. For crossover cards there will be and area on the back of the flip stating company and previous grade. Someday I will work in the hobby but until then............ |
it was a company called CTA.
Computer grading |
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But as David pointed out, there are a lot of identical edge imperfections. Also, the words "Willie Mays - CF" are dead matches when observing the white snow on those letters on both scans. What most disturbing is that, in my opinion, the corners have been improved. The bottom two corners on the 9 appear to be sharper than the 8. So with that said, subjectivity of assigning accurate grades isn't the only problem with TPG. |
Right edge looks like it has a rougher cut in the top card than the bottom card.
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Re: Computer Grading
I'm sure the optical algorithims can be modified to higher accuracy. As far as detecting if a card is authentic or not, I think that's what a grader's job should be. When a card is sent to PSA, an authenticator first determines if the card is indeed real, then scans the card into the grading computer for final analysis and numerical grading. In essence, the professional grader's job is now limited to determining if a card is real or not before a computer does the actual grading.
I also think computer grading can put a stop to resubmissions over and over for grade bumps. If a computer can scan a card and determine that it has been submitted before, it can reject that submission, or at the very least, not double count the pop report. Somehow the conspiracy theorist in me thinks that grading companies want people to submit cards over and over, and may actually prefer inaccurate grades. |
the mays 9 is back
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I think I stated all that already in what I am working on. |
PSA Grading and CU Forums
A very, very interesting thread.
I am grateful that it remains uncensored here on net54. |
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I've pondered the idea of developing image processing software to look at centering, registration, corners, edges, and to look for creases, paper loss, fading, etc. It would be a monumental task, and would require custom code (or a template of some sort) for each type card. |
IMHO, the Mays cards are not the same. If you look at the photo the printing flaws in the picture vary from card to card.
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Just my guess but if you look the same buyer purchased the PSA 8 from Probstein123 and then when it was upgraded to a PSA 9 and relisted they win the card again from Probstein123, sure looks like a consignor bidder/shill won his own card the second time so then they decide to consign it over to PWCC and they now know the ceiling bid of the two underbidders ($701.77 and $575) from the last auction. I wonder if they tried a second chance offer on the underbidder and they declined so just relist it with another consignor. This is getting old.
First sale won by - p***e http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ht_1070wt_1038 Second sale after the upgrade from PSA to a 9, winning bidder is - p***e http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ht_1050wt_1038 Now listed again by PWCC...... |
So it's ok for a consignor to buy his cards back from an auction???? This is not considered shilling as long as they pay the premium? I always assumed I was bidding against other potential buyers in an honest auction.
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