Also starkly demonstrates the stupidity of rewarding cards with higher grades for having poor characteristics (i.e., rough cuts).

Outside of Jeff L's post, all of the outrage on the last 3 pages is directed at Moser and PWCC (unless someone posts differently while I'm writing this). Many of the posts even suggest that PSA and/or Collectors Universe should expand their operations to become even more powerful than they already are. The power they already wield is the bulk of the problem here... It's what is motivating the "doctors" to alter/submit to PSA, and their Registry is what's driving the insane prices paid for these altered cards. They are making the Card Doctors rich.

Increasing PSA's presence will only add to the problem. I understand that most people here have a vested interest in PSA, with tens of thousands of dollars tied up in their holders. But check out the 2 latest reveals on BO...

The '51 Bowman Mantle, from which Moser profited tremendously, and the '52 Mays, in which he actually lost money (a chemical burn resulted from his "cleaning" process). The common denominator in all of this is PSA's failure to detect anything. So aside from the "vested interests", why is such blind faith put in PSA to fix it?

It's like asking the Mayor of Flint, MI to fix their water crisis. :mad:

The more I read that post over on Blowout, the more BLOWN AWAY I am at the shear depth and mass quantity of cards that have been tainted by this guy.

It's not confined to him by any means Bob. He just left an easier path to retrace.

It’s like the old saying, “Aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?”

I am afraid that the holder is now more important than its contents, if for no other reason than too many people have too much invested in the slab.

It’s always about the money. PSA is too big to fail.

As I say, the flip is the commodity. Tis true.

Correct. There are more card doctors than you can count. Moser is one... many more have been exposed on BO.

The common denominator is PSA authorization.

A rough cut that was factory wouldn't bother me, and considering the lax production standards of the time, I don't think a factory rough cut should be penalized. Of course, edge wear on a rough cut should be, and it's usually more obvious than on a clean edge.

That someone can create a rough edge without having it look like its fake or removing enough to make it appear trimmed... That's some involved fakery.

I've been undecided always about a factory rough cut that results in a badly angled corner. I think a deduction is warranted but get the opposite argument.

What I was told by SGC is that the grade is a more cumulative thing. One of the cards I asked about has fantastic corners, and still has a visible impression of the pressure plate that holds down the stack of paper being cut. It also has a flake of paper loss on one corner - less than the amount of rounding I've seen on higher graded cards, a tiny wrinkle in the border about halfway up the left side, a bit of mis-registration, and a bit less than average centering. So it only got a 50 because all the tiny problems brought it down.

I'd agree that if the cut is rough enough to make a corner look odd, that should be counted against.

Maybe it's easier to just blame PWCC because most around here didn't like them to begin with. But if PSA is unable to determine what cards have been altered, and can't even determine if modern cards have been trimmed, what are we paying them all of this money for?

Cant imagine why

To get the cards into the plastic holder so they can be sold for more money than if they were left raw. Once a trimmed card gets a grade, it is for all intents and purposes not a trimmed card anymore.

Never understood the current centering mania. Centering is a quality, but not the quality.

So there is one specific collector I know out there who is a big supporter of PWCC’s guy Brent who is also obsessed (I mean OBSESSED) with centering and has shown me some great cards over the years. I just hope 1). He isn’t one of the bad guys which has been my fear but now as i write this, 2) I hope he hasn't been scammed in large size through all this because I quite liked the guy when i met him at Nationals in the past few years. I have seen people snickering at him on other forums, so I am not too hopeful.

That’s the $200 million question. I rejoined this hobby back in 2014 and one of the main reasons I buy graded is because I couldn’t tel a fake from a real card and the holder allowed me to sleep easy that they were legit.

I think you can still sleep easy that they can spot a legit from a fake, now a unconserved from a conserved, eh.

j@ff dr*m

I have been keeping up with everything and it is sad indeed. Early in my T210 collecting, I use to like having the highest graded examples whenever possible. I think I have about 300 that fit that description. I havent been (lucky) enough to be as picky the last couple of years. If SGC is anywhere near as affected as PSA/Beckett seem to be with alterations esp. trimming, then I may just bust all the plastic and go raw. It was fun while the illusion lasted.

I'll spam this video one more time to provide an example of a competent TPG
 

A competent TPG who clearly defines restoration and is a great example of what can be done for cards.

Glad you naysayers of my earlier threads have now gravitated to focusing on the core TPG problem.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/0H5j0mQYpy8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Graded I think is just where the hobby was by 2014 - I think it was to the point where seeing nice raw cards made you wonder why they weren't graded esp. with unfamiliar sellers. I don't like doing it, but I buy graded cards without a back scan and sometimes even when the scan of the front isn't great because the grade gives me an idea of the condition. Even when I've had instances where I was disappointed, I always keep the card, just not worth the hassle of the return for me. I think the TPGs are doing ok with the grading part, its the authentication part that's the issue. Maybe these two things should be broken out and done by different teams. One team should determine whether the card is genuine and if so whether it has been doctored. Then a completely different team put the number grade on it.

+1

I admit haven't read everything. Will try to catch up this weekend.

My opinions were a bit heuristic given PWCC's business is doing too well to risk for small $.

I've asked that question too, but can't seem to get an answer. If you were hired to do a job and you couldn't do it for whatever reason - you didn't have the staff to execute the job, you didn't have enough time to execute the job, you simply don't know how to execute the job - whatever reason - would you take the customer's money anyway? I hope the answer would be no. So why does PSA continue to do it? Why are they taking customer's money if they can't detect alterations? I'm sorry but, to me, taking money for a job you can't do is way more fraudulent than what people are accusing PWCC of doing.

David,
If I could give you a fist bump I would.

I have pondered this for years also, David. The best I can figure, the registry has continued to drive the PSA machine...which I know isn't news. Also, many people stopped collecting cards in exchange for flips a long time ago.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

That's why you need to read up. It's not small money, even by PWCC's standards.

Agree with David... it’s criminal.

Yes, lots of people are uneducated these days when it comes to raw cards but this isn't the golden days where most card purchases were made where you could actually hold the card in your hand and examine it BEFORE buying it.

How many purchases has one made with the actual card in hand to examine before purchasing in the last 10-15 years? Probably, not many with the exception of the National and other shows.

Card grading was a great idea that was greatly needed with internet trading being what it has been for the last 20-25 years but then the greed took over and what could have been good thing for the hobby, just gave some a license to print money.

The underworld is not transparent.

Show me the Card Fax.

Is buying a used card that different from buying a used car?

One benefits from the “repair” history of the car before the purchase.

Does the card doctor proudly put a sticker on the card to document his fine work?

Does the auction house reference their prior sale of the same card when the “altered and graded” card is relisted by the same auction house and have the gall to add a sticker that the card doctor omitted?

Does the grader acknowledge that the same, now altered, card has previously received a lower grade? Shouldn’t he know, even if there is no money passed under the table?

Do you really want to spend $10000, $20000 or more on a card without this information to garner an elite status gold star on a registry? Apparently many do.

To try to absolve any of the involved entities of guilt, by placing the blame on one of the others, is the pot calling the kettle black or vice versa. Are all the parties colluding in the scheme? Perhaps not to the same degree, but they are at least complicit.

If there was a true whistle blower at any of the stops along the way, the fraud would be uncovered. Blowout and Net54 both have members no doubt with skin in the game. But Redefining fraud to absolve oneself of guilt seems by most to be an insufficient tactic. To remain silent and wait for the wind to blow this away may be successful, but does not mean the fraud isn’t happening.

Disclaimer: I have never seen a Car Fax, or had any dealing with them

I would buy a 1992 Toyota without one, but would be more careful in the purchase of my Rolls Royce or Bentley.:eek::D

Kinda

EDIT: Shoulda seen it coming. I posted before I got to the next line.

I've always been an Eagles fan (the band, not the football team) and methinks Glenn Frey hit the nail on the head when he sang (from Smuggler's Blues):

"thre's lots of shady characters
lots of dirty deals
ev'ry name's an alias
in case somebody squeals
it's the lure of easy money
it's gotta very strong appeal"

I think every line of this chorus applies to this mess. From PSA to PWCC to Moser and the other trimmers to eBay aliases and shilling to the exponential difference in prices of high grade cards (PSA 8-10). Though we own that last one.

its those smugggglers blues!!!!!

Oh lord...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2342


They really blew the color job on that one.

And we’re supposed to believe PSA really missed that??

Seriously, if there’s a company who’s worse at the ONE THING they’re supposed to do, I’d love to know who it is. Nice job, PSA!

I know we’ve already said it’s the “tip of the iceberg”. But I’m honestly losing count of these now.

Does PSA remove the pre-altered grade from their pop report when they add the grade of the altered version of the same card?

Pop Report enthusiasts should consider this when touting their pops.;)

yuck

And Peter....BOTH cards got the PWCC "High End" sticker. A '5' with a huge surface scratch like that, as well as a '7' with obvious color touch on it. I'm literally speechless right now.

Stickers trump grading in pre-school and in Oregon.

I have put that request already in my wish list to Steve Sloan. There are some set registry ne'er-do-wells that probably still have them in their sets.

And people thought it was crazy three days ago when I said the N162 or whatever was likely recolored because "PSA would catch that!"

I feel a bit vindicated in my opposition from day one to these stupid stickers.

How classic would it be if the population of one of the modern serial-numbered cards that has had example(s) involved with this trimming scandal has a PSA graded population higher than the highest serial number... this might actually be out there!

A brand new group of altered vintage cards were exposed on BO last night. Many have had obvious color added, and PSA continually fails to detect it.

Also, Moser's net gain was recently posted for the poorly executed color-added Clemente Rookie.... Nearly a $7,000 gain on that one awful card alone. :eek:

What percentage of "freshly graded" cards do you think truly haven't seen a holder before? I think it's quite small and the pops are considerably off due to this kind of stuff.

This whole situation is f***ed. I don't collect the stuff that has been in these lists and posts but I feel just terrible about it for those who spent their hard-earned money on these fraudulent products. I also feel bad for this hobby. The vast majority of collectors and sellers are honest and decent folks who wouldn't dream of being part of a scam like this, and they (we) are all going to eat some financial crap because of this. All i can say to the doctors and their enablers is

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...0to%20hell.jpg

damn you all to hell.

Sad, but great post, Adam...

It's very disturbing that Planet Of The Fakes is the most prevalent world within the Collectors Universe

That's a pretty quick turnaround time for a sale, doctoring, reslab, and resale. 4 months. Hmmmm....

The humanity.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297033

That's insane. Where does it end? Seems like just the tip of the iceberg.

THEN the greed took over?

Hahahahahahaha, I'm rolling on the floor laughing over here (and my hotel has hardwood floors, so it's a bit uncomfortable).

It was kind of early in the process when the greed took over...

Allow me to, once again, point out the very FIRST card that the biggest seller of opinions ever gave an opinion on (although it was pointed last time I mentioned it that they were probably giving that opinion for no charge)...

Ladies and gentleman, straight from being hand cut from a sheet, the first paid opinion that mattered, #00000001, I present to you the world's most valuable card, the authentic, oops, sorry, I mean 8 on a 10 scale, Gretzky Wagner...

When a thread gets this long, sometimes it helps to post the same jokes.

And it IS a joke.

Doug "just call me the dead horse beater" Goodman

Recall these are just cards from the last few years from one source; there are many bad sources. And only cards these guys have been able to find before and after evidence. Even as to the one source it wouldn't touch all the raw cards he buys. We may never see the iceberg but we can infer its size. If PWCC really wanted to do good for the hobby (yeah right) it would come clean on each and every card consigned by a questionable source. Guess -- it would be a staggering list.

The thread has to keep going otherwise this will get swept under the rug. Sometimes you have throw in a bad joke just to keep this thing going.

So when is Sloan going to address this...publically?

They're actually good jokes, they have kept me laughing for years, ever since card #00000001 when everybody first stuck their head in the sand, trying to avoid the obvious.

Some?

Probably?

Hahahaha!

This thread is cheaper than drinking in a comedy club, with more punch lines.


And the people who get paid for their opinions are laughing all the way to the bank...

E95 Matty SGC 30 = PSA 3.5
 

This guy can really recolor like a pro. Baffled PSA is missing these and so many more recolored ones found on Blowout.

Sadly, I would have been happy with that SGC 30 as it was...

Recoloring
 

I think he’s adding a light gloss to the cards after he recolors, so it doesn’t look like the surface is being touched. He gets “under” the patina that way.

The hits just keep on coming.
Great work over there on BO.

We're gonna need a bigger boat,.........err, Conservatory.

This is all enough to make me want to exclusively go the beat up ball card route or return to picking up vintage photos that I like (mainly from RMY) and steer clear from this nonsense.

That makes perfect sense, but it should still fail a blacklight test. Why aren't these high dollar cards being examined under a blacklight? Is an extra 30 seconds in the review process really that much extra effort, especially on high dollar cards?

I am told he may be using a type of paint or ink hat doesn't show up?

For a computer based vision system with machine learning capability, the detection of alterations to cards, whether trimmed edges, recoloring or other alterations, should be easy to detect.

This is a grad student project to put together the system and to 'teach' it with known examples of altered and unaltered cards. You could also give the system rules for grading the cards. No human operator needed (or desired).

Then who would the card doctors pay the kickbacks to? :confused:

Someone still has to feed the cards into the machine.:D

I think you’re oversimplifying it. The reason it hasn’t already been done is it is incredibly difficult and complex.

You’re absolutely right:

https://sabrbaseballcards.blog/2017/...uthentication/

Not the same things, but they do use AI to help authenticate paintings. The paintings study the brushstrokes to see how they line up with the brushstrokes of known original paintings of the painters. Has even worked on Jackson Pollock paintings.

I very highly doubt humans will ever be removed, or should be removed, from grading, but new technology and science can certainly be used.

There are current tools, beyond just blacklight, that would identify all added material. They are currently used with art and artifacts.

Thanks! You don't have to explain how the tools work (I probably wouldn't understand anyway :D), but how long would it take to use these tools to examine a card? Just wanting to know how much extra time would be involved in the grading process?

Here’s a Cy Young with some work done.....bought in fall 2017 at BST as a PSA 2 and then sold by PWCC as a PSA 3.

There’s at least one other from that auction that was altered and sold by PWCC also.

https://bst-auctions.com/1909_1911_T...A-LOT2936.aspx

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ac36119a_b.jpghttps://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...6f2146f4_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...d7b60b87_b.jpghttps://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...b6ce4822_b.jpg

If there's some glosscoat (Or matte clear ) It may block UV. Similarly, not every modern paint/ink will react to UV, so the blacklight won't help as much as it's believed to.

But that's also no reason to not use one. as they can expose a whole laundry list of sins.

Well, instead of a blacklight, it appears PSA used a blindfold when examining that Cy Young card. :confused:

I wonder if even 1% of these bad cards in PSA Slabs have yet been exposed?

Return a card to PWCC and now your banned.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...-return#latest

Well, by banning him, PWCC did him a gigantic favor. Gee, PSA overlooked an obvious wrinkle.... shocker!

Totally agree! Huge favor.

I-N-S-A-N-e!!

Like the child in the neighborhood if you don’t play by their rules they don’t play! Pathetic!

To write a glowing textual review and not mention the quasi-refractor line going through the entire card is definitely cause for return.