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I have never communicated with Mr. Peter Nash or Mr. Ron Keurajian. According to Mr. Peter Nash's website, he contacted Huggins & Scott on April 6, 2013. I posted my Babe Ruth Ticket thread on March 31, 2013. I started the thread a few hours after I read about the auction on the Sports Collectors Daily website. |
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Your comment is very telling. |
I'm curious why no one questioned the consignors admittance that he has no problem recalling every step of the provenance of that Babe Ruth signed ticket that was gifted to him back in 1992, but yet he (Rscheck) is unable to remember her name.
Is anyone else puzzled by that? |
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Chris while I find all this back and forth amusing I am truly sorry for your loss! |
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Ahhh, what a beautiful Tuesday morning. |
I think I've understood everything on this thread except the part right after I'm curious what the members here think of this Babe Ruth?
:p |
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The most frustrating thing about this thread is that Chris keeps going back to the provenance and is not dealing with what he thinks is wrong with the autograph itself. And showing a comparison to an Eddie Gaedel signature without saying a word about either one is not addressing anything. He's very open about discussing the provenance, but tight lipped about the signature. Why?
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Open a backward a spaceing and the h trailing. Just a few things that might make you think that it is not authentic. There are to many things wrong to make me believe.
Hauls of Shame voiced concerns about the Ruth ticket to Huggins & Scott via Twitter on April 6 and again via email to Huggins VP Josh Wulken on April 10. When informed that we had spoken with an expert and well-known author who had indicated that he could not authenticate the Ruth ticket Wulken responded, “I have no idea who that is and everybody has opinions. If you dont know who he is talking about go out and buy the newest book on forgeries. |
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My thinking on Ruth signatures, and it applies to this one: Any authentic Ruth-signed item has been around for 50+ years. Probably 50% (at least) of Ruth signatures on the market are forgeries, and many of those have LOAs. Everyone knows that if you want to sell a Ruth-signed item, it has to pass a TPA. So, if a Ruth-signed item shows up on the market with a new LOA, you have to ask why? At that point, all you have to go on is the provenance and the item itself. The ticket 'could' be good. The provenance is very shaky. If we manage to get over the ticket and the provenance, the autograph still has to pass. This isn't about 'prove it is bad'. If it smells at all, and it's a 'Ruth', we generally discuss it in this forum, but... There were much better ways for Chris to present his opinion - I won't speculate as to why he chose this route, but it was unfair to the consignor and the auction house. |
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Just saying. |
There are at least 4 open "a" Ruth signatures in the current REA auction.
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I'm confused; there are two long, painful threads going on right now. One is obsessing about the chain of provenance before we even want to talk about the auto.
The other doesn't have a line of provenance -- in fact, there is some serious provenance saying the piece cannot be legit -- and people are howling to disregard the provenance, just look at the auto. Which is it?? Ken |
it's disfunctional threads and discussions.
snit54 instead of taking a look at autographs and provenance from a logical perspective and sharing information to get to the bottom of things. |
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As David stated, tells are not ironclad - I'm sure people who normally close their a's have left a few open. |
Scott, Chris feels that bad Gudel is from the same person that did the Ruth ticket. You can make up your own mind. He was trying to show the open a on the babe and the open a on the other.
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I would be willing to bet there might be a few more.
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I will wait until Chris is able to speak for himself.
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The Babe Ruth signed ticket and the Eddie Gaedel signed photo were penned by the same person. 100%. |
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This is a page from the N.Y. Herald sportswriter Rud Rennie's personal scrapbook. The autographs were obtained by him in-person.
Note the "a" in Babe. It is open. http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...ps151ee222.jpg |
Chris, nice having you back. I think one thing you did not mention is that there is always a chance of a Babe Ruth open a. I am sure that anyone can find one. What you did not tell them that out of over four hundred documents that have been certed by more than one person or was a legal document contract, notary and checks. the percentage was 10 percent open a's to closed.
I know that when I posted the open a I was expecting people to do just that show the open a. I wished they took as much time to show all the ones that are closed. Of all the certed open a's ninety percent have been authenticated by Jsa or psa what a surprise. I think before everything is said and done a few more people might come to the dark side. :eek: Just to add something becaus of Chris being my friend. This site is made up of a lot of good people and I want to thank those that showed there is a time to be feisty and time to be careing .Death is a terrible thing and except for one or two people you showed Chris a lot of love both publicly and private. I can tell you that it gave both Chris and his girlfriend a great deal of comfort knowing people really cared. |
The point, Shelly, is simple. The gobbledygook you posted notwithstanding, an open "a" does not disqualify a Ruth signature.
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Last night was the viewing (over 1000 people showed up) and today is the funeral.
Please say a prayer for my girlfriend to get through this day. Thank you for your kindness. |
Chris,
so sorry to learn of your girlfriend's loss. My thoughts and prayers are with you and her. |
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May God give you and your Girlfriend the inner strength to endure in this time of sorrow. Know that there is no pain anymore for him, just peace. |
Hauls of Shame Update:
UPDATE (May 1): Experts Uncover More Ruth Fakes in Heritage and REA Auctions; Feds Building Cases Against PSA, Joe Orlando, Steve Grad, Jimmy Spence and Auctioneers REA and Rob Lifson just withdrew ten autographed lots that Haulsofshame.com and other experts called out as fakes and the auctioneer’s disingenuous explanation that the withdrawal was at the request of its consignor is being widely ridiculed by collectors and dealers throughout the hobby. REA, however, has not removed the alleged photo signed by Babe Ruth to Gary Cooper despite expert Ron Keurajian calling it a fake and Gary Cooper’s own daughter confirming that the photo was never in the possession of her family or the “Cooper Collection” the family archive she curates. Sources indicate that Lifson does not believe that Cooper’s daughter Marie Cooper-Janis confirmed this information for Haulsofshame.com. http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=19877#more-19877 |
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Would graded cards and certain graded autographs lose their value? Be difficult to sell? Would overall interest and participation in the Hobby decrease? And if such a scenario came to fruition, what alternative directions for the Hobby might we see? |
If they are shut down, I believe the items authenticated would fall in the same category as GAI certified items, except there would be more repercussions due to the amounts of money spent on these items.
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Craig,
Although I would love to see action taken, I would assume that nothing will happen. I was simply relaying a message from Hauls since some here may not be aware of the site. If they can't take down the clowns at Coaches Corner, then why PSA, JSA, REA, etc....Much more money changing hands?? Who knows... |
Craig, that's almost too huge a scenario to get my brain around, but I believe the reason these TPA's have been successful is not because they are authenticating real autographs (and thus rendering forgeries valueless), but rather because they have allowed more product into the hobby, the result being that more people who want 'Ruth' (and other) autographs can buy them. The TPA's give us more autographs, cheaper autographs, and a false sense of security.
The market for autographs of dead people is getting bigger, but the dead people are no longer signing anything. Because of this, I believe that if the TPA's go away, more TPA's will arise. |
...and a sort of related comment: this forum allows us to protect ourselves, but I don't think it usually does much for the rest of the autograph collectors out there. If it did, we'd be hearing back from guys who win items that we have deemed to be forgeries. Instead, we are only hearing whining from consignors who don't want us questioning them.
A forum member's getting REA to force the consignor of the recent pile of Ruth pictures into a corner, and withdraw them, is a big step forward for the hobby. I hope we see more of that - then we really will be influencing collectors who are outside this board. |
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This is evidently where the hobby goes when it wants to eat itself.
Third party grading is where all hobbies will be in the future, particularly ones that rely so heavily on the internet for distribution. The elimination of the big ones would only cause more to sprout up to take their place. If and when you or your heirs go to the market to sell your autographs, you/they had better be prepared to have them authenticated by whoever or whatever is the market leader at the time for authenticating autographs. During any period of time when there is no accepted market leader for authenticating autographs, you can expect your items to diminish -- perhaps drastically -- in value. What I'd like to see more of from the people who challenge the established market leaders are videos of people forging autographs -- outside of the context of an in-show Sal Bando-esque signing -- and then having Spence, or DNA, or SGC, authenticating those autographs. Frankly, I'll spend thousands of dollars on autographed T206 cards that I don't have. Won't someone please forge one, get it certified by Spence, DNA or SGC, and then sell it to me? I won't tell! Why can't I find any of these on the market over the past two years? Prices have been skyrocketing!! |
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Obviously I agree with your assessment, since we said many of the same things, but I think you already know why you aren't finding T206 cards with forged autographs. I wish you luck locating more of them - it's a great collecting niche and you seem to be enjoying it a lot. |
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If the big boys go down I really dont believe that there be anyone with enough juice to take there places. It will all go back to the way it was before. Prices will go way down. Auction houses wont be able to get 20 percent buyers fees. The world will be a perfect place to live.:D
PS. We can then have the M and M boys from Heritage do all work. |
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Call it HSA (Horse Shit Authenticatters)? |
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When prices get driven down low enough by competition, you have to cut back on service; i.e- due diligence or close examination. If you want TPA's, you have to take shoddy service or embarrass them so badly with their mistakes that they change the way they do business. I will not state as others have, that they are dishonest - I think their motivation is simply 'staying in business'. |
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now we have sgc CARD GRADING company receiving, sorting, tagging, data entering, AUTHENTICATING, slabbing, and boxing up your signature for 8-10 dollars per autograph. SWEEEEEET! and they wont tell you who their authenticators are! perfect!!! |
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I just wanted to expand a little bit on my previous response. Both of those sigs (Ruth & Gaedel) were penned by the same person as I have stated before. Second, it has lot more to do than just the "a" in both sigs. And no, I'm not going to expand on that. As for that Babe Ruth signed ticket, it's not even a well-executed forgery. I find it to be a very awkardly-penned forgery. |
I als wanted to write that I have a much different perspective on life and priorities.
A few times here on Net54, I have posted comments that I now regret because I am a very emotional person. I apologize for some of those comments. I will no longer "take the bait" from the few members (two) that light the fuse of my emotional responses. That doesn't mean I'm not going to "be myself." I'm not going to change the way I do things. I have worked very hard during the last eight years training my eye for autographs. I also work very hard doing my research and the leg work necessary to find the information I need. Some I can share and some I cannot. It's not a personal thing. Some I share with my close friends and some I don't share with anyone. I know other collectors who possess information that I don't have. I don't bug them to share that information with me because I know exactly why they can't share it and I respect that. I also have many sources that share information with me. They trust me with that information and I have never broken a confidence and I never will. As a matter of fact, some of my sources are people that some of you would assume are at odds with me. And I share some of my information with those same people. So if you want to make fun of the way I do things, or my name (thetruthisoutthere), or anything about me, I will no longer let it bother me. To quote "I never did mind about the little things." I will continue to be a member on Net54, as there are some wonderful and nice people here who simply want to enjoy the hobby, as I do. But at the same time, I will continue to do what I do. Thank you. |
Chris- I am still a big supporter of yours. I do wish the ticket thread would have had enough meat to satisfy others but I understand. Keep up the good fight. Even if you lose 1-2, you have won exponentially more of them.
Also, I hate it when I see people saying they are going to leave the forum (Jim Stinson recently). It is what it is though and this open of a board isn't for everyone. One thing that no one can say is that there are a lot of anonymous postings and people not standing behind what they say. I have put names under members id's almost daily. One of my biggest pet peeves is forums that allow anonymity of people bashing others. People say things they wouldn't say if they had to stand behind it. As you know Chris, some of the biggest names in the autograph industry are members here even if they don't post. I think what you guys do in helping expose issues does help your hobby. |
its all about chris and he provides no insight into these autographs. how did he help expose issues regarding the babe ruth autograph ticket, and how did it help the hobby? leon?
i still think it maybe fake it may not be, but no analyzation of the autograph was proffered at all. totally worthless threads if you look at it in its totality, nothing got accomplished. i will wait patiently for the screenshots that were promised. |
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I always say if you aren't making any mistakes you aren't doing enough!! I also wish more information on the Ruth ticket would have come out....and since it didn't, I am not sure the thread was good or not. But even if it isn't, there is no way I can discount the other countless positive things Chris is doing. If everyone tried that much, and exposed a ton of bad stuff for every mistake they made, I would still say they were successful. That's just my take on it. I am sure some won't agree. |
Oh, this thread accomplished a thing or two. I'm sure it scared off some bidders, and cost an innocent consignor some money.
I guess that from now on baseless accusations are OK--we'll just call them "losses," while we call pointing out Coach's Corner forgeries "wins." |
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Maybe and maybe not. As long as a member puts their name out here they can pretty much say what they want to. It's almost too open of a forum. |
It would be a crime if Jim Stinson stopped posting...
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.....and in the end, after over 500+ posts.....over 25000+ views....countless arguments, accusations, claims, and whatnot.....nothing was proven......nothing......just a whole lot of noise.
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Yes, and it is a shame.:mad: Read his last few post and I am sure you will figure it out.
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Catching the latest of Jim's tales of adventures in autograph collecting or reading one of his humorous or profound (or both) interjections into an otherwise drama-laden thread was one of the few things that kept me coming to the autograph side of the boards. |
Jim will be missed!!
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Not only that. If you read what he was saying it would give you a great clue to what he thought of an item. That knowledge is now lost to the people on this site.:(
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Great Lyrics from 1982
And now I'm standing on the corner, all the world's gone home
Nobody's changed, nobody's been saved And I'm feeling cold and alone I guess I'm lucky, I smile a lot But sometimes I wish for more than I've got |
Look at the reason he left. It is not on this thread it on the Gary Cooper thread. You can then maybe figure out why. I have been told I can not post emails to me so I wont. If you cant figure it out them I cant help. :mad:
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I remember viewing this thread on page three... Now 47.... I have some reading to do!
I lied...55... Oh boy |
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I still own you :) James - I haven't been buying Babe Ruth forgeries...I mean autographs....for 50 years, I don't work for a TPA and I don't have secrets so deep and meaningful that I can't even tell you why I'm 100% certain of my opinions. Many of the experts in this forum don't even read what I write. So how was it so easy to put you in my back pocket? Why do you love me so much? I'm unavailable - go away. |
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I thought I felt a lump in my pocket. Goodnight James, and good luck to you and Dean with those photo sales. |
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Okay, back on 'ignore' - you are starting to creep me out. |
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My Reponses...
I apologize to everyone that has to read this crap....
I took the bait and I apologize for that. The last thing I want to do is turn this site into a sideshow...:mad: Scott, If you have a problem with me, send me a PM. We can handle it there. |
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