Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2103850)

I have humanity, but I'm also realistic. My vaccine card is nearly 20 years old. It has Smallpox, Polio, Tet-Dipth, Typhoid, Meningitis, Adenovirus, Plague #1, Plague #2, Rubella and a lot more that I just can't read - and some of them more than once. I don't know what most of that stuff even is. I bet you the Army still vaccinates against those same things today - 20 years later (especially for their hospital workers).

And here is where I'm realistic. A vaccine (even if 100% effective) is not going to make a pandemic end. If the Army still vaccinates against those diseases listed above, and I'm pretty sure they do, it's for one reason: they never went away. But if you (and others) want to think this pandemic is just going to go away with some magical vaccine, by all means believe that.

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan (Post 2103849)

Instead of trying to distract us by lifting restrictions, I wish they just would've gone golfing!

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2103851)

Polio and smallpox were essentially eradicated. It can happen.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2103856)

US has not had a polio case for 40 plus years.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2103856)

In 1980, the World Health Organization declared that smallpox had been eradicated.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2103860)

Depends on how you look at it. The US hasn't had a case originate in the US in over 40 years. But surely you know that cases have been brought into the US by foreign travelers?

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2103862)

In January of 2020, the World Health Origination also decarded that there was no evidence of human-to-human transmission of Covid. But if the WHO is a source for information for you, I won't argue. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by irv (Post 2103843)

It's amazing what some will believe!

Just a week or so ago, Fauci and sleepy Joe were telling people to double mask then magically, just like that, the vaccines have cured everyone and masks are no longer required?!?!?

How some can't connect the dots despite what's right in front of their noses, is simply mindboggling. :(

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2103872)

And as for smallpox, do you think there could be live viruses in labs somewhere that could somehow be "let loose?"

I've also heard about somewhere (maybe it was Russia) where the tundra was thawing and they thought that it could be transmitted via frozen corpses that died a century (or more) ago as they thaw. That was a few years ago, I don't know what happened with that.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2103851)

Polio and smallpox were essentially eradicated. It can happen. Realistically it may not because too many will hold out, but it can still be greatly greatly reduced.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2103847)

You've got it all figured out Dale. Now tell me the flaws in the studies. Oh wait, science is just part of the conspiracy, damn I forgot.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2103850)

I have humanity, but I'm also realistic. My vaccine card is nearly 20 years old. It has Smallpox, Polio, Tet-Dipth, Typhoid, Meningitis, Adenovirus, Plague #1, Plague #2, Rubella and a lot more that I just can't read - and some of them more than once. I don't know what most of that stuff even is. I bet you the Army still vaccinates against those same things today - 20 years later (especially for their hospital workers).

Originally Posted by irv (Post 2103904)

I assume you are referring to peer reviewed studies where the peer, if he/she doesn't like the result because it doesn't jive with the narrative nor fit the agenda, is tossed out?

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2103932)

Feel free to point out the flaws instead of spewing your BS and agenda driven soundbites. Ironically, your post is describing yourself to a tee -- because the studies don't fit YOUR narrative, you apparently reject them even though I am sure you haven't read them.

Originally Posted by packs (Post 2103929)

Why did you get those vaccines if you didn't know what they were or why you were getting them?

Originally Posted by irv (Post 2103957)

You do you, Peter, and I'll do me. How's that?

Eight people from the New York Yankees organization tested positive, despite having been fully vaccinated.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/s...t-to-know.html

Family left with questions after Brampton senior's death.

https://torontosun.com/news/local-ne...ive-days-later

Langley-area man loses 2 metres of intestine after a blood clot following his AstraZeneca jab

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...fect-1.6027830

Some healthcare workers refuse to take COVID-19 vaccine, even with priority access.

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...vaccine-access

I could list dozens more, and you know that, but what's the point as I'll just be called a conspiracy theorist and a strawman arguer or whatever other names you can come up with to shame me for pointing out the other side of the story that is rarely, if ever talked about, unless you look it up for yourself.

Originally Posted by egri (Post 2103990)

This thread is approaching ‘Kevin Mize BST post’ territory for number of posts with no resolution, and I don’t think anyone is going to change their mind based off what they read in a baseball card forum.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2103995)

It's a discussion, there doesn't have to be a resolution.

Originally Posted by egri (Post 2103990)

This thread is approaching ‘Kevin Mize BST post’ territory for number of posts with no resolution, and I don’t think anyone is going to change their mind based off what they read in a baseball card forum.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2103710)

I answered your question, maybe you'll answer mine. Why would someone who's been fully vaccinated and believes their vaccination protects them be concerned with those who are unvaccinated?

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards (Post 2104380)

That's an easy one to answer from a science perspective. The more people who are unvaccinated the more time we give the virus to mutate. The more time we give it to mutate the more likely it mutates into a variant against which the current vaccines don't work. THAT'S why herd immunity is such a big deal. Not as much for immediate health but to keep this thing from lingering and flaring up continuously for years.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104416)

I am generally pro-vaccine (they have done many great things and greatly extended human life) and make risk averse choices in life. I do not think Bill Gates is trying to implant me with a microchip. Upon reflection, I have decided not to get this one. I was concerned at first, especially after seeing the videos form Wuhan on the other side of the internet, with people appearing to be dropping like flies in the street. I have completely ignored Covid since August.


First, it is not thoroughly tested. Complete blanket immunity was given to the drug companies, each of which has a spotty record when it comes to ethics and honesty. it is not FDA approved for anything but "emergency use" (Yes, I work in an FDA regulated industry, I know what this means), it is rushed. I do not greatly doubt its efficacy, but there is no reasonable argument that this was not rushed out the door and there may be much unknown. I am careful about what I put in my body (learned that lesson the hard way), I do not drink sugary drinks, I do not eat junk food, I do not take medications unless I have no other choice and modify behavior first if that might work instead. I am not perfect, but I don't take something because someone in authority told me too.


Second, the reason to get a vaccine is to avoid the risk of the affects of the disease, which is a very minor risk to me now that we have much more data. In many countries the average age of death is lower than the average age of death of people who die from Covid. The CDC, which is supportive of the narrative, projects a death rate for those in my age group that might as well not exist. And this is all done after counting in a way that maximizes Covid deaths, by tabulating people who die within 14 days of a diagnosis (or even reporting a symptom that could be 100 other things) as if they died from Covid. One need not be an expert in statistics to see the absurdity of this. Imagine if we counted "vaccine deaths" the same way? You would see large numbers of 'vaccinated dead', even though because X happened and Y happened, it does not mean that X caused Y. I don't get flu shots, I see little practical reason to get this either.


Third, the appeals to authority do not stand to reason to me. "trust the science" is not a good argument, especially when much science is ignored if it does not suit the narrative of the people saying this. Surgical masks were not found to be effective against airborne viruses in studies before 2020. Put on a surgical mask, step outside on a cold morning, and breathe. See your breath in the air? States with high mask usage are not doing better than states without. Masks are separate and distinct form the vaccine, but based on the previous absurdities being pushed by "science" about Covid, 'trusting the science' makes no sense beyond the fact that appeals to authority are always a fallacy. It is also fundamentally not how science works, question everything is how actual science works. I trust clean statistical data, not appeals to authority, not papers with massive control problems bankrolled by companies and groups with a vested interest in that specific outcome.


Foruth, on the personal side, the public hysteria that is completely out of line with the measurable risk, makes me just not want to participate in show this at all. I live in a state that uses this as a reason to restrict core constitutional freedoms, like assembly (unless it is a riot supported by the media, those weren't mass-spread events and were okay, but me and my extended family having Thanksgiving dinner sure was considered such, as were political events the media did not approve of). Any questioning of the narrative is met with derision, the social witch-hunt at schools, companies, and in communities here to virtue signal their heroism for locking themselves inside for over a year and castigate anyone who simply does not participate in the show pushes me deeper into the no-vaccine camp by emotional instinct.


If I spent my life afraid of things I have a roughly 99.8% chance of surviving, I would fear almost everything in the world. This strikes me as a stupid way to live, whether or not the fear being discussed is the current flavor of the month and socially popular. Even if this vaccine is somehow the most safe thing ever devised in the history of the world, the difference between it and getting Covid at 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency is negligible.


I think people should decide for themselves, based on any standard they choose, rational, emotional, or absurd. 'My body, my choice', right?

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104436)

Excellent, well written post.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104416)

I am generally pro-vaccine (they have done many great things and greatly extended human life) and make risk averse choices in life. I do not think Bill Gates is trying to implant me with a microchip. Upon reflection, I have decided not to get this one. I was concerned at first, especially after seeing the videos form Wuhan on the other side of the internet, with people appearing to be dropping like flies in the street. I have completely ignored Covid since August.


First, it is not thoroughly tested. Complete blanket immunity was given to the drug companies, each of which has a spotty record when it comes to ethics and honesty. it is not FDA approved for anything but "emergency use" (Yes, I work in an FDA regulated industry, I know what this means), it is rushed. I do not greatly doubt its efficacy, but there is no reasonable argument that this was not rushed out the door and there may be much unknown. I am careful about what I put in my body (learned that lesson the hard way), I do not drink sugary drinks, I do not eat junk food, I do not take medications unless I have no other choice and modify behavior first if that might work instead. I am not perfect, but I don't take something because someone in authority told me too.


Second, the reason to get a vaccine is to avoid the risk of the affects of the disease, which is a very minor risk to me now that we have much more data. In many countries the average age of death is lower than the average age of death of people who die from Covid. The CDC, which is supportive of the narrative, projects a death rate for those in my age group that might as well not exist. And this is all done after counting in a way that maximizes Covid deaths, by tabulating people who die within 14 days of a diagnosis (or even reporting a symptom that could be 100 other things) as if they died from Covid. One need not be an expert in statistics to see the absurdity of this. Imagine if we counted "vaccine deaths" the same way? You would see large numbers of 'vaccinated dead', even though because X happened and Y happened, it does not mean that X caused Y. I don't get flu shots, I see little practical reason to get this either.


Third, the appeals to authority do not stand to reason to me. "trust the science" is not a good argument, especially when much science is ignored if it does not suit the narrative of the people saying this. Surgical masks were not found to be effective against airborne viruses in studies before 2020. Put on a surgical mask, step outside on a cold morning, and breathe. See your breath in the air? States with high mask usage are not doing better than states without. Masks are separate and distinct form the vaccine, but based on the previous absurdities being pushed by "science" about Covid, 'trusting the science' makes no sense beyond the fact that appeals to authority are always a fallacy. It is also fundamentally not how science works, question everything is how actual science works. I trust clean statistical data, not appeals to authority, not papers with massive control problems bankrolled by companies and groups with a vested interest in that specific outcome.


Foruth, on the personal side, the public hysteria that is completely out of line with the measurable risk, makes me just not want to participate in show this at all. I live in a state that uses this as a reason to restrict core constitutional freedoms, like assembly (unless it is a riot supported by the media, those weren't mass-spread events and were okay, but me and my extended family having Thanksgiving dinner sure was considered such, as were political events the media did not approve of). Any questioning of the narrative is met with derision, the social witch-hunt at schools, companies, and in communities here to virtue signal their heroism for locking themselves inside for over a year and castigate anyone who simply does not participate in the show pushes me deeper into the no-vaccine camp by emotional instinct.


If I spent my life afraid of things I have a roughly 99.8% chance of surviving, I would fear almost everything in the world. This strikes me as a stupid way to live, whether or not the fear being discussed is the current flavor of the month and socially popular. Even if this vaccine is somehow the most safe thing ever devised in the history of the world, the difference between it and getting Covid at 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency is negligible.


I think people should decide for themselves, based on any standard they choose, rational, emotional, or absurd. 'My body, my choice', right?

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104416)

I am generally pro-vaccine (they have done many great things and greatly extended human life) and make risk averse choices in life. I do not think Bill Gates is trying to implant me with a microchip. Upon reflection, I have decided not to get this one. I was concerned at first, especially after seeing the videos form Wuhan on the other side of the internet, with people appearing to be dropping like flies in the street. I have completely ignored Covid since August.


First, it is not thoroughly tested. Complete blanket immunity was given to the drug companies, each of which has a spotty record when it comes to ethics and honesty. it is not FDA approved for anything but "emergency use" (Yes, I work in an FDA regulated industry, I know what this means), it is rushed. I do not greatly doubt its efficacy, but there is no reasonable argument that this was not rushed out the door and there may be much unknown. I am careful about what I put in my body (learned that lesson the hard way), I do not drink sugary drinks, I do not eat junk food, I do not take medications unless I have no other choice and modify behavior first if that might work instead. I am not perfect, but I don't take something because someone in authority told me too.


Second, the reason to get a vaccine is to avoid the risk of the affects of the disease, which is a very minor risk to me now that we have much more data. In many countries the average age of death is lower than the average age of death of people who die from Covid. The CDC, which is supportive of the narrative, projects a death rate for those in my age group that might as well not exist. And this is all done after counting in a way that maximizes Covid deaths, by tabulating people who die within 14 days of a diagnosis (or even reporting a symptom that could be 100 other things) as if they died from Covid. One need not be an expert in statistics to see the absurdity of this. Imagine if we counted "vaccine deaths" the same way? You would see large numbers of 'vaccinated dead', even though because X happened and Y happened, it does not mean that X caused Y. I don't get flu shots, I see little practical reason to get this either.


Third, the appeals to authority do not stand to reason to me. "trust the science" is not a good argument, especially when much science is ignored if it does not suit the narrative of the people saying this. Surgical masks were not found to be effective against airborne viruses in studies before 2020. Put on a surgical mask, step outside on a cold morning, and breathe. See your breath in the air? States with high mask usage are not doing better than states without. Masks are separate and distinct form the vaccine, but based on the previous absurdities being pushed by "science" about Covid, 'trusting the science' makes no sense beyond the fact that appeals to authority are always a fallacy. It is also fundamentally not how science works, question everything is how actual science works. I trust clean statistical data, not appeals to authority, not papers with massive control problems bankrolled by companies and groups with a vested interest in that specific outcome.


Foruth, on the personal side, the public hysteria that is completely out of line with the measurable risk, makes me just not want to participate in show this at all. I live in a state that uses this as a reason to restrict core constitutional freedoms, like assembly (unless it is a riot supported by the media, those weren't mass-spread events and were okay, but me and my extended family having Thanksgiving dinner sure was considered such, as were political events the media did not approve of). Any questioning of the narrative is met with derision, the social witch-hunt at schools, companies, and in communities here to virtue signal their heroism for locking themselves inside for over a year and castigate anyone who simply does not participate in the show pushes me deeper into the no-vaccine camp by emotional instinct.


If I spent my life afraid of things I have a roughly 99.8% chance of surviving, I would fear almost everything in the world. This strikes me as a stupid way to live, whether or not the fear being discussed is the current flavor of the month and socially popular. Even if this vaccine is somehow the most safe thing ever devised in the history of the world, the difference between it and getting Covid at 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency is negligible.


I think people should decide for themselves, based on any standard they choose, rational, emotional, or absurd. 'My body, my choice', right?

Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104661)

Pretty draconian view of society and your place in it. Would you slow down for someone crossing a street after the light turns green? Or did they make a decision they'll have to live with now?

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104682)

Yep, not taking a vaccine leads to us youth committing vehicular homicide. Totally reasonable perspective. Stellar argument.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104681)

Yes, me not taking an experimental drug means I am likely to commit homicide. This kind of bullshit is exactly why I have 0 interest in participating in this madness. This is the dumbest thing I have read this week.

Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104688)

Haha that's exactly what I said. It doesn't matter if your decision poses a risk to me because you made it and that's how it is.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2104679)

To be expected, I am afraid, of younger people. All about themselves.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104691)

So if we don't want the vaccine, we should just take it anyway? For the sake of others?