[QUOTE=steve B;1930194]In post 20 he says time from sale to return was about a week.

So that's also a bit confusing, maybe 2 weeks spent trying to deal with ebay etc?

Or just old like me... Sometimes I'm thinking "I just did that last week" And it was much longer than that:o[/QUOTE]

I am terrible at that one and it keeps getting worse as I age.:D

I also make the mistake of replying as I read stuff in order.... which ends up being a bit odd sometimes if I miss a day.

Let me be clear a card was sent to PSA by buyer and it took a reasonable period of time
to return to me and may have been 1-2,-weeks. I believe I was advised appx a week after buyer got the card he wanted to return since he claimed PSA advised the card altered.

Would you kindly show a picture of the card and what it was sent back to you in? There is something from PSA included, yes?

"...a card..."

You mean, the card - the same one you sold the buyer - that was subsequently returned to you?

Thank you for clarifying Dave. Are you sure you received the same card back when the buyer returned it? Don't suppose you have before and after images do you?

Don't you guys think the OP would know if he got a different card back? I am just not seeing why you keep pushing this theory.

I'm still undecided.

Honestly, I don't know. But it only takes a few seconds to type "yes, I'm sure it's the same card" and click Submit Reply.

According to the OP, "Ebay high value department...advised it may not be the same card as sold."

Sound advice, in my opinion.

He could also explain, as I've asked repeatedly, why he didn't try to cross the card. Oh well.

It just seems to me that would have been his lead point if he thought it was a different card.

Coming late to this but the OP had to get the card somewhere himself...now that he believes it is altered (as PSA said) why can he not go back to where he got it from and get a refund on his purchase?

Did the buyer return it to ebay? How did ebay get in the middle of the card being returned, to the point where they could make such a statement?

And if ebay thinks the return is fraudulent, why do they still back the buyer?

Okay..... there is MUCH more to this story that has not been clarified...

Because the person he bought it from probably won't take it back because it was cracked out of the case. If he bought it via eBay, they may rule in the sellers favor this time, and he won't be able to return it. :D

Wow this thread is getting long. And many of the OT hypotheticals bring out many of the issues that we all face as card collectors. But again looking at the facts the OP lists one of the key facts that has been lightly discussed is buyer told the seller that the card was no longer in the Holder and the seller said YES when the buyer asked to return the card. Once he said yes is it ok for him to change his mind? How much help would any of us expect from ebay once we said OK to the return?
I understand that many say any buyer returning any card in any slab that he has removed sets a very dangerous president. But the facts of this situation don't really represent that situation. This was a case where both GAI AND THE SELLER represented the card as near mint. The card was determined to be altered so it was misrepresented. The seller said ok to the return...and now he is unhappy with the result. Those are the facts.
This is not a case where Ebay forced the seller to do anything. They just told him to be careful that he might not get his original card back. But again seller states that he did get his original card back.. So everybody who says rhat the seller got screwed by ebay is just wrong. Seller had a choice to fight this return but chose to accept the return.
So folks tell the seller to call the authorities etc... And say what? I sold a card that I said was near mint that turned out to be Altered then the buyer asked to return the card and get a refund and I told him OK. He returned the card in exactly the condition he said he would return it in and I refunded his money.... I am not a lawyer but where exactly did the seller do anything wrong?
Maybe if the seller had told him he would not give full refund because card was out of the case the buyer would have said ok. We will NEVER KNOW. Because the seller said sure send it back.

I dunno? You say PSA "determined" the card to be altered?

I thought these days all that PSA offered was their "opinion?" No guarantees?

So isn't that what GAI/the seller offered? Their "opinion?"

PSA hasn't exactly proven they are capable of detecting alterations as of lately?

They're just "opinions" after all?

Aren't we all entitled to our "opinion?"

The OP said he "accidentally" accepted the return and that he did NOT know at the time the card was no longer in the GAI slab, he only learned that later and that ebay then forced him to accept the return he already had agreed to.

Here are his exact words.
"I accidentally hit accepting return but didn't know at the time the card was cracked out.

The buyer said before it was sent to me on ebay it was no longer in the slab and Ebay said I still had to accept the return."



So how was it an accident?

Looks like I missed something before writing a comment. Never mind.

.

At this point, here is how I see all this.

1. The buyer probably forfeited his right to a return when he cracked out the card. I can see the counterarguments, but I would rule against the buyer on this point-- somewhat reluctantly.

2. Ebay should not force the seller to accept the return.

3. The seller's posts have not been a model of clarity, and to me it's not a good look when he doesn't answer pertinent and repeated questions.

4. The seller should identify the buyer.

5. I suspect the seller would have resold the GAI card without disclosure of the PSA review, and if true that bothers me.

6. The whole thing is really a no-win situation for the hobby.

I really don't feel like reading this whole thread to find the answer. But did the OP actually say the buyer told him the card was cracked out while requesting a return? If so my opinion of both parties is completely different.

The buyer did nothing wrong, and the seller made a stupid mistake accepting the return. It happens. I have no idea why this thread was created.

It's in the first post. The seller says he did not know it was cracked out when he "accidentally" accepted the return.

If he didn't know the card was cracked out, why would it be an accident to accept the return?

I did read that, I guess I misread a post towards the end. So by "accidentally" the OP probably meant he accepted the return not knowing it was cracked out.

Seller approved the return before realizing the card had been cracked from its slab. Thus, the "accidental" acceptance of return.

Had he known the card had been cracked out, he presumably would not have authorized the return.

Edit... We were writing at same time. Yes, you've now got it correct, Jesse.

Lots of folks here sell lots more cards on ebay and BST than me I have about 700 feedback on ebay. But the couple times folks have asked for refunds the first thing I ask is why? If I click the button saying I will accept the refund without contacting the buyer why would I expect ebay to side with me?
I was wrong in my earlier post when I said seller said he knew before he clicked ok to return. I re read the post and he dose say it was after he accepted return but before buyer mailed it back.
Maybe the buyer would have been ok with NO or maybe they could have reached a settlement maybe Ebay or PayPal would have sided with him.....anyway LOTS OF MAYBES..
That we will never know answer to because seller said send it back. And buyer did. So end of Transaction.

Return was accepted BEFORE buying advised out of the slab which is noted earlier.
Since return is out if the slab not sure if the same card was returned.

Well that's a new and huge wrinkle since you hadn't raised it before.

If you aren't sure, you should post your best before and after scans/photos and maybe people here can weigh in.

And you should post the name of the buyer so we can offer any insight as to reputation.

Except these examples aren't the same, which is why I suggested there is a huge gray area when putting a value on the packaging. The Lionel train car and Star Wars figure package was part of the original retail item. The CGC grading and GAI holder are embellishments added after market items.

Adding to the complexity of the issue in this case is the value of the card. I mean, if the slab was merely a GAI 1 or 2 and the buyer broke it before return of the card I doubt there'd be nearly as much discussion. So as I somewhat t.i.c. suggested earlier in the thread, in the future sell the slab, not the card.

You are really selling the slab AND the card in the slab. Its like a christmas pack extra value. Its the mystery of whether the GAI will hold up to its grade is the 'value' If it was some XYZ company with zero history of competence, the slab is meaningless.

However there are collectibles to this day that are in GAI slabs in auctions that sell for thousands of dollars such as wax packs etc. XYZ company doesnt have any

The 'mystery' is now gone from this collectible because the slab is gone. People pay more for mysteries/gamble

Example- People pay 40 dollars for a slot in a set break when average value of cards will be 3 dollars. Its the mystery!

Example Xmas packs- Its the mystery!

Meeting someone online whos video is always broken on computer or phone which prevents a live view of the person and all you have to rely on are pictures which could be feasible excuse in 1994 but not in 2019. Its the mystery (not from prior experience)

If I spend $5k for a card described by the seller AND the TPG as near mint, I am not thinking that I am buying a mystery. I think I am buying a near mint (unaltered) card.

You are buying a mystery if the TPG is GAI. Afterall if its from PSA wouldnt it go for far more than 5k? Its the mystery of the GAI is why GAI 5's go for more than PSA 2's for example.

However the benefit of PSA is you can try to get your money back from them if if the card is altered, as everyone is aware from me, no lawsuits yet that I know of so apparently buyers are satisfied.

As for GAI, its buyer beware and buyer is getting it for the mystery and can sell it later on as long as its in the same holder with the extra mystery value....crack it out, you lose the mystery....


So if someone says 'NO returns on graded cards' I can crack it out of a PSA case and say the card is altered so i want my money back because why would i pay 15k etc....

Early GAI generally speaking is still considered pretty reliable.

GAI crack out
 

At one time, GAI had many good cards in holders, much less accurately at higher priced cards or higher tiers. A buyer can initialize a return if the seller uses "Free Returns" power seller terms so he gets an e bay invoice credit monthly if he or she qualifies for Top Rated.

If the seller does not authorize this status, he still has to take card or any item back no matter what within 30 days, so if the buyer cracked out of any slab, either lower tier holders such as CSA or PRO, it ALTERS the original sold product and is not in original sold condition. Even if PSA deemed it altered or non authentic. EVERY GRADING SERVICE including SGC, PSA, GAI, BVG etc offers their professional opinion on grades and based upon our perceptions as to whom we choose to pay to slab numerically...that changes nothing, items are supposed to be returned as shipped, raw or graded....GAI did grade professionally until two years before their demise. If an item is not returned as received, e bay and paypal offers seller protection but you need to file a Federal IC3 fraud report, local police report or professional appraisal to substantiate your claim. Hope this was not too long....

right..everyone says that and everyone has an opinion of what was early and what wasn't and how to identify it or not. Plus there are problems with early grading as well.

All part of the mystery value but it does add value to a card because of the 'maybe' factor

A XYZ holder has zero 'maybe mystery' factor and is just a hard plastic sleeve.

I think we can agree that if you get a card in a hard plastic sleeve and return it in a soft plastic sleeve, its wrong but nobody really is going to complain

a XYZ holder is a hard plastic sleeve. A GAI holder is more than that because of the mystery and past sales. Maybe 20 years from now GAI will just be a plastic sleeve but its not there yet.

When a relatively common card says 1st Graded, it's early -- very early.

right and nobody disagrees that GAI also had problems with 1st graded cards..... going to be arguments both ways but yes i agree, GAI has more value than XYZ....you are preaching to the choir

You still see GAI graded cards in major Catalogue Auctions periodically. I recall a nice Ty Cobb T206 in the last REA Auction.

Do you think REA, Lelands, SCP or Heritage would (for one second) allow the winning bidder to crack it out on their own accord, and accept the returned raw card back, for a full refund? Especially with no notice given, or permission to do so?

The buyer took advantage of the seller, knowing that eBay's liberal return policy had him covered. He wanted the chance for a big payday with no risk, all completely at the expense of the seller.

As others have requested... Please post the Buyer's name.

GAI crackout
 

NO auction house would accept a cracked out slab as a return, in fact very few would take back anything after won & paid for the reasoning of anything except maybe authenticity, if it was sold slabbed and was sold intact, pretty sure NO one tolerates that.

Bingo! Please out the buyer so I may block him.

Does it matter to anyone that the seller also described it as Near Mint?

1933 GOUDEY LOU GEHRIG #160

GAI 7 GRADED

VERY RARE

NEAR MINT

GREAT CORNERS AND NICE EYE APPEAL

SMOKE FREE HOME

Nah he is quoting the flip i assume...

However i got this list below from blowout of grading places in the past you can see below.

Does everyone really think that these 'grades' really matter from all of these guys that you couldnt return a card that was cracked out.



AAA
AAI ( American Authentication Inc)
ADVANCEDGRADING.COM
AGS (Advanced Grading Specialists)
ALL STAR GRADING
ASA (Accugrade Sportscard Authentication)
ASGC (All Star Grading Company)
BCCG (Beckett Collectors Club Grading)
BCG
BEARSTATS GRADING SERVICES
BGS (Beckett Grading Service)
BGUM (Beckett Game Used Memoabilia)
Blue Chip
BRG (Best Rate Grading)
BSVA

Capital Grading
CCS (Card Collector Services)
CEX (Certified Express)
CGA (Card Grading Authenticators)
CGS (Champs Grading Service)
CLG
Compugrade
CPG (Certified Pro Grading)
CSA (Certified Sports Authentication)
CSC (Sports Card Grading Service)
CSG
CTA
EGS (Express Grading Service)
FGA
FGS (Finest Grading Service)
GAI (Global Authentication Inc.) (Bankrupt)
GAI (Global Authority Inc) (new owners of GAI)
GEM
GEM Elite
GEM-Sports
GGI (Gem Grading Inc.)
GGS (Gem Grading Services)
GMA
GRA
GRADEMYCARDS.COM
GRADING UNLIMITED
IGX
IKON
ISA
KSA (Kressler Sports Authentication)
MAJOR LEAGUE GRADING
MAP
MGS (Masters Grading Services)
MGS (Mint Grading Service)
NASA (North American Sportscard Authentication)
PCCG (Pro's Choice Card Graders)
PCG (Professional Card Graders)
PGC (Premier Grading Certification)
PGC (Premier Grading Company -same as above?)
PGC (Pro Grade Certified)
PGI
PGS (Professional Grading Service)
PRE-Grading Service (uses screwdowns)
Premium Sports Grading
PRO (Pro Sports Grading)
PSA (Professional Sports Authenticator)
PSA (Pacific Sports Authority)
PSG (Pristine Sportscard Grading)
PTG
RGA
SBC (Superlative Baseball Card Certification)
SCD Sports Collectors Digest (SCD) folded and was sold to Sports Card Direct (SCD)
SGC (Sportscard Guaranty)
SNAGGLETOOTH
SPA (Authenticated)
Sportscard Grading Association
STADIUM CLUB GRADING
SWG (Southwest Card Grading)
TCG
TFA (The Final Authority)
TGA
UGS
USA (Ultimate Sportscard Authority)
Verisleeve (Sticker on Card Saver)
VGR (Venture 21)
VGS
VSA
VSG Vanguard
WCG (World Class Grading)

Mike Baker, IMO, was as good as anyone. I can only speculate what went wrong at GAI eventually, but in the first year I don't believe there were any more problems than with any other major grader, perhaps fewer.

Again folks here keep saying buyer "took advantage of ebay policy" But all he did was click a button and ask for a refund. The SELLER CLICKED OK SEND IT BACK. WITHOUT CONTACTING THE BUYER AND ASKING ANY QUESTIONS. We cannot know if buyer would have said ok if seller said he would not refund. We will never know if buyer would have negotiated with the seller. Based on ebay rules Buyer thought spending $5k on an altered card. ( please don't say can we really believe PSA, most of us on this board trust them when they say altered) and started the process to talk with seller. Seller chose not to talk and pressed button for buyer to send it back.

Yes but the seller probably assumed, reasonably, that it had not been cracked out.

Yeah, but that should scare people because I have a dead common T206 with a dead common back that is first graded and dead obviously trimmed. I have bought GAI for flipping, this one definitely won't.

So I can sell an altered card as NEAR MINT, as long as I am quoting someone else?

Well that is interesting to know.

Quit justifying the technicalities of a return policy for a moment and look at the moral aspect. The buyer damaged the goods and took advantage. Bottom line this is a scummy individual.
If you can look at yourself in the mirror and say all of the actions taken by the purchaser is acceptable then you are part of the growing problem in this hobby of thieves and tricksters. (Not directed toward the person I quoted but this is just a response to the way of thinking). None of it is justified.

The flip didn't say great corners and eye appeal.

But there are distinct issues here, I think. Yes, the seller inadvertently misrepresented the card by embellishing, in my opinion. He went beyond just selling it as is. I think he implied it was not altered. And as a result, the buyer would be entitled to a return for not as described. But in my opinion the buyer forfeited that with the crack out -- not as open and shut a question as some are making it, I don't think, but I still come out that way.

If we were talking about a different (highly vilified) seller, we might agree that doctored cards in high-grade holders is the problem in this hobby of thieves and tricksters.

A doctored card was outed. The seller can no longer use GAI's misrepresentation of it to sell it as near mint. I don't blame this seller of anything, but he is not entitled to get another shot at selling a now known doctored card at a near mint price, and that is all he has lost, with that cracked holder.

I do think the buyer should owe the seller for a new holder.