Yes, thanks Peter, for posting that... It’s about as damning as evidence gets. I see no way that PWCC can survive this, assuming law enforcement is even somewhat monitoring this. The evidence looks irrefutable.

They ruined some truly great cards in that particular submission. And why the hell is PSA passing these cards, when over half of the submission is deemed altered? Even the most elementary system should’ve raised 15 red flags. :mad:

Yeah separate and apart from Brent and PWCC, I have often wondered why at some point if they are seeing too many altered cards in a submission they don't just punt the whole submission back, note well who the submitter is, and ban the submitter or put future subs under special scrutiny. I don't know what goes on at that company.

Money, sonny. Everything is about money.

Arnold Rothstein: What's the secret of America? MONEY! Everything is MONEY, Charlie.

https://brianorndorf.typepad.com/.a/...2e85970d-800wi

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth
Yeah separate and apart from Brent and PWCC, I have often wondered why at some point if they are seeing too many altered cards in a submission they don't just punt the whole submission back, note well who the submitter is, and ban the submitter or put future subs under special scrutiny. I don't know what goes on at that company.

[QUOTE=Exhibitman;1897667]Money, sonny. Everything is about money.

Arnold Rothstein: What's the secret of America? MONEY! Everything is MONEY, Charlie.


So, they don't ban the person outright, but let them continue to submit. The TPG does however, put that person's submissions under extra special scrutiny (double-secret probation?). That way, the TPG still gets their money, even though they're sending the cards back to the person, ungraded/unslabbed.

Steve

[QUOTE=Steve D;1897703]Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth
Yeah separate and apart from Brent and PWCC, I have often wondered why at some point if they are seeing too many altered cards in a submission they don't just punt the whole submission back, note well who the submitter is, and ban the submitter or put future subs under special scrutiny. I don't know what goes on at that company.

Private speculation or should I say what if they submit cards in holders which the graders can recognize. Then they get stuff passed/bumped and the graders gets a special thank you at a later date.

[QUOTE=BeanTown;1897712]Wow - now we have hit bottom.

[QUOTE=wondo;1897726]How? not sure exactly what you are referring to so figured I would ask.:)

My comment was a reaction to jay cee gossiping about totally corruption. “Rumorville”? Either there is some evidence of that activity or the post is irresponsible.

That is what I though but figured I would ask. I somewhat agree with you at calling them out without proof. Could be a fact and he is not at liberty to give up his source.;)

My problem is could the graders really be that completely incompetent. If so how the hell does someone that worthless at their job keep it.

If they suspended or fired the graders that have graded all those submissions in the threads, they might not have anyone left? Are they researching which graders reviewed all of those submissions? I don't know.

They are unwilling to tell, so far, if they are Incompetent or Involved.

A quick search shows PSA is currently seeking new graders. One of their bullets struck me as odd. "Sharing knowledge to help improve skill of PSA Grading Team" My first thought was they want new people to come in and help show them HOW to grade. You would think that PSA would have a training program and teach everyone how to be subjective and do it the same way everytime.

http://collectorsuniverse.com/Jobs/List/

It also says “Maintain quality of grading product” - not advance or improve. They must be confident in their current product.

Both Bulletpoint descriptions are fodder. To nitpick, dissect or assign meaning to either is silly.

Remember, they are also having a "try your skills at grading" competition at the National. And according to their radio show this afternoon, you should expect there to be some counterfeits and/or altered cards within the cards you're supposed to grade.
Winner gets $1000, and maybe a callback?

Other than how obsessed they are with "production goals" mentioning it twice.

Overall I'd be more concerned with getting things right over "production goals"

And why do you need strong verbal communication skills? You are being hired because you have great eyes and know how to grade behind the curtain or closed doors which the public never sees. Not sure how having strong verbal skills helps grading other than them being popular among other graders in the back during break time.

Riiiight. Because PSA would obviously know. That has been proven beyond a doubt lately. :rolleyes:

The better gimmick would be to put the graders' skills on display.

I would suggest that is absolutely what PSA doesn't want to do.

I couldn't find the sarcasm font. :eek:

Yeah but a bad faith clause where they get to keep the money would solve that. To me it's incompetence from executive decision making, down to peon graders.

Hi everyone. There's a great scene in the movie Margin Call where Risk Analyst Peter Sullivan (played by Zachary Quinto) tells CEO John Tuld (played by Jeremy Irons) that if the company's assets of mortgage-backed securities were to drop by just 25% and remain on the books, that loss would be greater than the current market capitalization of the entire company.

With that in mind, I wonder if PSA were to pay out on their guarantee on every single altered card, if that payout would be greater than CLTC’s current market capitalization of $217M. Based on what I have read here and on Blowout Cards, I’m not confident it would not.

But they aren't paying on the guarantee. They've successfully deflected the responsibility back on the sellers, reducing their liability.

For example, card graded A =200 graded 5= 1000 graded 6= 2000

Instead of paying the owner 1800 for a card altered from a 5 to a 6, they have them return it, and maybe pay the scammer 800. Unless they have some excuse to not pay the seller, perhaps referring them back up the chain to whoever altered it who they probably don't have to pay.

Brilliant, but scummy.

I think it is brilliant also. The problem is like we seen on here with the T3 Cobb and Dan McKee. If the sale wasn't through eBay and recent enough for eBay/PayPal to force a refund the cards owner is out of other options. With private sales and older sales the seller just tells the buyer to pound sand.

I think that's the strategy because it's a violation of their TOS to knowingly submit altered cards. So, if they can push the refunds back to the submitter, they won't have to pay anything.

Class action suit will follow...

We can only hope...

Joe D turns over a new Leaf.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4137

Mercy another whitewashed Leaf Jackie graded by SGC.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4141

And there's a very simple solution - stop buying graded cards. Period. Full stop. Never buy another graded card in your life. And you will solve this problem.

But no one will do that.

So PSA, Moser and PWCC will win.

I understand the sentiment, but the statement that card alterations would disappear if we stopped buying graded cards- is wishful thinking at best.

You know what's really interesting (for me, anyway)? I like that card better as a 1 Poor. Has more character. The doctoring really sucked the life out of it.

That’s correct and you and I both know this will never happen....people are gonna have to accept the fact the industry is loaded with fraud and manipulation or move on and find a new hobby to be passionate about it’s sad.....to many people are making money so they keep hush....

Oh a civil lawsuit?

It will go down drastically as the easy money incentive with disappear.

another on the 5k or more profit list.

True- alterations will never disappear, but would definitely be lessened to a large degree. The risk/reward payoff for card doctors and corrupt dealers would take a giant hit. The reason that Moser and others are doing this in such huge volume, is attributed to the huge paybacks they receive for a single numerical bump. Without the grading insanity, their ROI would be a fraction of what they are currently getting by manipulating the TPGs.

In addition, collectors would pay a hell of a lot less for any mistakes made than they're paying now. The current situation is simply "minting" tons of money for Doctors, Dealers and the TPGs. Perhaps it's time that the balance of power shifted away from them, and back to the collector. :rolleyes:

I've bought very few. probably under 20. I have sent some to SGC to be graded, but not for a while.

Cleaned T206 SGC Young in current PWCC
 

Grade unchanged, but apparent stain removal, same National submission as cards previously identified as cleaned, a Leaf Jackie and a CJ Joe Jackson.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1306000

Leaf Ted Williams trimmed
 

Very very well said.....I’m in full agreement 😊

They are even doing it on cheap cards and making $50!

Maybe those were a swing and a miss, but doubtful any card that could be conserved wasnt

That's a naive take in my opinion. Everything isn't just black and white. There's an in-between. What about those of us who were new to collecting and paid the money to preserve and grade our legitimate cards only to get 1's and 2's because we had no clue this stuff was going on?

Personally, I was new to all of this in the last decade. Here's a bit of a glimpse to the other side. I'm sure we're not the only people with this experience. My dad and I had a growing collection and when trying to navigate what to do with our cards we saw "oh wow PWCC/Probstein/Novella have the same cards as us, they're crappy looking but got a 7 or 8 and sold for ridiculous amounts, surely our cards will get a better grade!" We learned the hard way, especially with PSA. It didn't matter what our cards looked like. Because we were submitting a mere 10 at a time no way in hell were we getting grades like those submitting 100 cards at a time. That's why we switched to SGC.

At the end of the day there are many people out there like me who had their unaltered cards graded completely unaware of what was going on behind the scenes. Some of us actually have legit graded cards. They're not all involved in this mess. Don't hate on those of us who have followed the rules and stayed true to our hobby.

There's still a ton of information that has yet to come out before we know how deep this really goes. This is just the infancy stage. Some rather interesting new quotes, and damning implications pertaining to the TPGs on pages 177 and 178 of the Blowout Mantle/PWCC thread.

Link...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=177

N300 Anson, from an A to a 5. Jeez.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=182

Wow that’s bad real bad.....PSA is striking out big time.....

Add one to the refund line.

Card looked trimmed to begin with not sure how it got into a holder the second time whether or not it was recolored or just cleaned.

Can wait 6 months or more, afterall what choice does he have...

doesnt even make the 5k or more list..

Wowzers. Thanks Mark for the specific pages. Also, I vividly remember that Anson (both times) and checking back here on N54 to see if anyone was calling it out. Something certainly seemed fishy to me at the time.

Yes Agree.....Peter.

So many bad bad cards in holders with grades.

I’m not giving PWCC or the Doctors a pass by any stretch however......

My question is will PSA lose it’s credibility in the industry ??

How can any auction houses Or dealer have confidence selling/auctioning cards in PSA holders that were not submitted by themselves??

I have a feeling this years national is gonna be scary for many dealers...idk