How did other sellers know that Todd bought the card? Just curious.

You betcha. Lots to be learned in this thread.

wow, where to start? How about this-- since most everyone seems to say that seller did a poor job of communicating, but some think that's just a minor transgression in the overall scheme of things, ask yourself this: What if paragraph 3 of this explanation--the nefarious Todd description-- is nothing but made up BS? Do you want to do business with someone who will outright lie about you on a public forum?

Let's look at this again
First and as noted, how on Earth could any seller know my ebay movements --that I won this or any other auction? The entire process is anonymous, bidders and winners, yet not one but two sellers (very reputable no less) contacted him. Really--you seriously buy this?

Second, why would anyone care about what I buy on ebay, i.e. what would motivate anyone to track or give a damn about what I'm doing. You can look at my feedback, what do I average, a handful of purchases a month? 2 in the last 60 days. Yet these two dealers were motivated to watch me (again, we have no clue how this could even be done) and warn this seller about me within 2 days of auction's end. Again--you really buying this?

Third and speaking of feedback, you'll see this seller left me a positive 4 days after the auction ended. Now if you've been warned about me and my scamming ways just two days after the auction, why wouldn't you hold off on feedback until you saw if I was going to pull something on you too? After all, just two days earlier you're given a heads up, but you go ahead and leave me a positive anyway. Does that make sense?

So if you believe that this guy is a flat-out liar, and a malicious one at that, do you still want to do business with him? In the future, would you want to know about such people earlier, later or not all? I will have more in a few minutes, but wanted to get this part out there first.

not anymore
 

Not anymore....

Last post
 

We post feedback for paying bidders immediately. Once feedback is left, you know who bought what. Use a little common sense guys. This is the last you will here from us. Thank you!!!
Paul

Now, on a more personal level. Those of you who know me know I collect primarily m101s, and by primarily, I mean heavily. I have a few hundred of them. I have no Stengel. Check your sources, you'll see they don't come for sale all that often. So let me get this straight. I'm finally able to land a card I need, at a manageable price no less, yet the first thing I do is look to flip it? And when SGC says its trimmed, I don't ship it off to PSA hoping they'll OK it? I just have buyer's remorse and decide that I'll get my money back (well, less two registered mailings, a $25 grading fee and more shipping fees with the return)?. This is how I do things? Really? I expect that GAI cards will cross or even get bumps because of what-- people generally have real good luck on that? As I said, I stated on my submission that I'd take a minimum of 60--so if it crosses at 60 I stand to make 5 fold on my money as this pissant suggests? An SGC Stengel 60 will sell for $5K? Right.

Here are some numbers for you. To the best of my recollection, in my entire life the number of cards I have returned or sought to return to any dealer, auction house, board member, fellow collector or guy down the street is ZERO-- this would be the first. Ever. So yeah, I have a real sweetheart scam all figured out--too bad this a$$hole and his two reputable dealer friends (who of course must remain anonymous because they do not exist) figured it out.

Second, in my entire life, I have submitted ZERO cards to any grading company other than SGC, whether raw, cross-over, reholder, review, etc. None, nada zilch. Why, if I stand to make so much on crossovers to PSA?

Third, in my entire life, I have submitted a total of THREE cards to SGC for crossover. All three were in this last submission, the Stengel that the liar sold me, a m101-4 Herpolsheimer Urban Faber GAI 8 and a m101-5 Gimbels Dave Bancroft GAI 6. The Bancroft I bought from Tim Newcomb in August 2005 and the Faber July 2005 on ebay. Yeah, I planned on shipping those back to the sellers 5 1/2 years later if I didn't get the crossover grades I wanted. Right.

In short, this guy's story is pure fantasy. BTW, I now see he claims feedback is posted immediately. Well I paid on the 4th and feedback was left on the 5th-- so again, why give me a positive if you've already been told to look for me to scam you "down the road"? BTW, check this seller's feedback now. His shiller has left him feedback claiming "100% HONEST & CUSTOMER SERVICE IS NO. 1". Does that sound like any feedback you leave for sellers--complimenting them on their honesty?

Just out of curiosity, did SGC crossover ANY of your 3 GAI cards??

Todd, help me to understand something. You said that you received the Stengel and suspected it might be trimmed so you sent it in to SGC for their opinion, along with 2 other GAI graded cards on the same submission. Just curious, but did you suspect those other 2 of being trimmed as well? Surely you didn't just want to have them in SGC holders because you stated in another post...

If the holder means nothing to you as you stated above, why send them in 5 years later? Why not just leave them in their holder?

Sure, the seller's story doesn't sound right. But come on, does yours either?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but just want to clarify that it is easy to search for what a specific ebay user has won and bid on. You can do it under "Advanced search"

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...&sort=3&_rdc=1

Just a question Todd. I know this really is completely irrelevant and kinda off topic, I'm just a little curios though. I can understand sending the 3 GAI graded cards for cross-over, but why not also send the PRO with 'em?

We have a thread about a seller who refuses to accept a return, apparently shills his own auctions, apparently pleaded guilty to a serious crime involving dishonesty and served jail time, and you guys are cross-examing Todd? :confused::confused:

I purposely stayed out of this thread until the seller came in and gave his side of the story. Having now heard both, it seems to me that one of the stories smells far fishier than the other. I have some real difficulty with the concept of one baseball card version of Dog the Bounty Hunter following Todd around, let alone two. While there are some other parts of the story that I'm having some problems with, I just don't believe the two "reputable" dealers part of the story at all.

Conversely, I don't have too much of a problem with someone who has had a card or two in a GAI holder deciding, after years, to send them in because he's already sending in another. I've contemplated doing that myself on a couple of occasions, if for no other reason to have uniformity in the cards that I have slabbed. Others may disagree, but to the extent that I think that slabs are attractive at all (and I'm still not a huge fan of them), I prefer the look of the SGC slabs to the look of the others.

Kenny Cole

Todd- why did you send it to sgc, and why was that not in your original post? You only indicated that sgc deemed it trimmed. There was no indication from your original post that you immediately suspected trimming. Am i missing something?

Peter- no offense, but i have suspected many ebay users on shilling. Seems to be a very constant issue

David- thats a valid point

Is this not obvious? Todd suspected the card was trimmed, but didn't think it appropriate to return it on his own suspicion, so wanted to get a professional opinion. This witch hunt is ridiculous.

Kevin, he didn't make mention in his first post of suspecting the card being trimmed. He only threw in that very pertinent piece of information after he was being questioned (see post #32).

Peter- it would have been alot clearer to everyone had he said that in his initial post. " i suspected obvious trimming so i sent it in to another grader" that was not said unless i am missing something.

Communication (Again)
 

Seems the "circus" that this thread became can be traced back to the lack of communication w/the buyer in the first place.

Was all this worth it?

And therefore, what? Not even worth discussing, as opposed to Todd's scheming?

No cross-examination here. Completely unrelated to his issue with Caters. I was just curious as to why he would send in the GAI cards, and not the PRO.

.

I was hoping that Frank Wakefield would ask that question, because he deserves an answer, whereas you do not. You accuse me of being a reneger on "who knows how many occasions" and point to one transaction from 6 1/2 years ago, yet sit silently by with no comment when real man of genius Mize claims it is "uncalled for" to point to an article stating that Paul Sabatino (this seller's name) was convicted of tax evasion arising out of embezzlement of more than $1.6 M just 2 1/2 years ago because "No need to go that far back in a man's past". Wonderful consistency there. You also took a shot at my professional character as well, with your usual amount of evidence and tact. Finally, it seems it may have been you who told seller to look at this thread, which leads to me having to respond to complete fabrications. Well, hope you like your champion now--maybe you should direct a few questions his way, unless of course you buy that BS he penned.

I will answer your question, though, because it appears arguably germane and is fair, and because of my exchanges with Frank. There were two reasons I sent in the other cards. One, I knew I'd be paying a bunch in registered mail for sending in just the Stengel, so I thought I'd add a couple more. More importantly, I was curious for myself to see if SGC might have some bias toward GAI, and I knew the other two cards were good--hell, I've owned them for many years and have examined them at length--whereas the Stengel looked funny to me pretty much right away. The other two came from long ago and far different places, so while it's possible they all could be deemed trimmed, I would have frowned very heavily on SGC's approach to things if the other two came back evid--trim. They did not--the Bancroft is 80, the Faber 86.

I'm in this for the long haul, and don't do this to flip or make my money like the liar would suggest and as some of you follow.One day I hope to have all my cards in just one company's holders, but that will be when I sell or shortly before I die, both of which I hope are a ways off. Until then and as I mentioned to Frank, they're rather hodge podge and half or so raw. I'd like to think that when it comes time, SGC will still be going strong and still be my grading company of choice--then I'll take the plunge. But I can't afford to do this more than once, or at least I choose not to pay more than once. So who knows whose holder would bring the most $$$ to my old age or my heirs?

Djr- please! You have been watching too many godfather movies!

Well we all know the Pro is more than likely over graded or altered as most are so why waist the money. His preference to do the GAI's only is just that, preference. I have bought 1 GAI card ever and it was my WOJO T205. I was lucky that it did cross and I lost a full grade from an 8 to a 7. I was more comfortable with SGC's 7 than a possible GAI 8 flip on the card if I had to sell. Sadly enough due to a family issue with my youngest I had to sell. Big regret but some day he will return to my registry. It has a sense of validity when SGC and PSA grade a card numerically, as compared to GAI, PRO, CSA, and so forth.

What difference does it make when Todd suspected trimming, why he sent it to SGC, or what his intentions were? Who gives a @#$%???

The bottom line is Todd bought the card at auction, wasn't happy with the knowledge that the card is potentially trimmed and requested a refund. Any seller worth his salt should have offered one as long as the card was returned in it's original state.

What bothers me more is the complete lack of acknowledgement to the seller's past and legitimate concerns over the possibility of shill bidding.

I don't know vintagetoppsguy or cmiz and am not sure if they have an agenda or just like to read what they type, but I do know Todd and he is a stand-up guy.

Mike

Todd- i've got your man of genius!

Other than refusing to accept a return, how is any of that pertinent to this situation? We've already determined that this auction wasn't shilled. I just don't understand what the criminal history has to do with anything. As a buyer, I could care less about the personal life of a seller. I don't care if he has a criminal background, I don't care if he is a liar, I don't care if he beats his wife, I don't care if he's going to use the money to buy crack, etc, etc, etc. I care about getting the item I purchased as it was described/pictured. Todd got what he purchased. He may not be happy with the purchase, but the item was delivered as described.

Let's deal with facts about THIS case, not people's personal life.

Hey mike- get a life. You know as well as i do that if this happened to you, you would be pissed. The card was graded, i repeat, graded! He knew that.

Well said dave

Hey jackass, I have a life...a pretty good one at that. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Mike

.

Ok, if it wasn't as advertised, then why didn't he send it back right away instead of sending it to SGC?

Mike- brrrrrrrr. You are really something.

Let's quit all the bickering back and forth and get back to the issue. One TPG says it's trimmed, one TPG says it is not. Todd said he could prove it was trimmed. I'm calling him out and asking him to do so.

How about a high resolution scan? That might be helpful! Show us what you see!

Brrrr....so are you

David- what the hell good is a scan? Just curious

Because he said that he could tell the card was trimmed as soon as he had it in his hand. Maybe a scan will help us see what he sees.

I love it when someone responds"like a real man" on posts and does not have the b***s to post his name on the forum. OOPS, sorry mike

David- how can you tell from a scan if the card has been trimmed or not? You can't even see any wave to the edges. You are a better man than me

You mean respond like a real man (not a high school boy) and tell someone to get a life. Is that what you mean?

Oh, and jackass, the name is MikePugeda

UMMMMMM you could just look at the auction right????????

lol, if your bull@#$% detector didn't go off immediately upon reading the "facts" in the seller's response, I seriously doubt that any scan, high resolution or otherwise, is going to convince you regarding the correctness of Todd's explanation that he thought the card was trimmed.

Mike- where's the love?

No...the word jackass is NOT Italian

OK...truce

Mike- i'll give you that one. Pretty quick response! I even tried to be politically correct and edit my response. You win that round, no offense.

Guys, the scan was just a suggestion. I thought if he provided a high resolution scan to show the suspected trim area, it might change my mind. Again, it was just a suggestion. The point was that he said he could prove the card was trimmed. I am asking him to do so, be it scan or some other method.

After all, Todd said that he could look at it and tell it was trimmed. Shouldn't a scan/pic help me see what he sees?

Just a few thoughts and observations (and I don't care whose side your on and I'm not taking sides with anyone --- at least not publicly).

I do have a complaint with the rationale behind some of the arguments here. Specifically those pointing to the Sellers past financial / legal transgressions and alleged shill bidding practices.

A public case has been presented by the Buyer against the Seller. The Seller has stepped forward and presented a defense. We the jury of public opinion must evaluate those arguments based on their own merit.

While the Seller's past legal history is both interesting and scandalous, it has no bearing on this case whatsoever. Nor do the charges of shill bidding. Though reprehensible as they may be, these considerations have no material impact on the matter of whether or not a TPG card may be returned to a Seller for a full-refund solely based upon a different opinion obtained from another TPG company. No matter what crime the Seller may or may not have committed in the past, it is irrelevant to the case at hand.

Now we've had a very good discussion and debate thus far, apart from the occasional name-calling. Let's keep this a fair-fight, with no hitting below the belt, and let's try to stick to the facts. Remember, neither our relationships with the parties nor our opinions of them based on past direct experiences or indirect knowledge should be given any weight when it comes to deciding this matter.

Much of the thread has been fantastic fun. I do, however, wish it had not been titled "Beware [Seller's Name Here]". I think that the Buyer initiated this thread out of a sense of frustration, and hence the title. I believe that it would have been in the Buyer's best interest to have presented the case in slightly more impartial manner, let's say as a question posed to the community concerning the proper etiquette and legal obligations of a Seller in such a case. The poor communication argument is also just another way of piling on, and has little to do with the main issue, which is, "Does any Seller have a legal or ethical obligation to accept the return of a TPG card simply based on the Buyer obtaining a different opinion from another TPG company?" It's a great question for this community to consider.

I'd also like to know how positions of the community may be changed if the Buyer had purchased a PSA card from the Seller (instead of a GAI card) and had tried crossing that over unsuccessfully? Or visa-versa (let's set our opinions of PSA and SGC aside for a moment and consider them equals for the sake of argument).