I'd say that is maybe PPIE for Panama Pacific International Exposition (1915).

Hmmmm. Could be...

Repost to see if anyone can answer. I have seen this pennant in several threads and online resources. It is not listed in Mike Enger's book (2013 version) in this red field color. It is shown in his book with the field of the pennant grayy.

Any info would be appreciated. I attached the picture again of mine.

Thanks for the consideration.

Cool pennant. These tend to fade easy. This is from a pennant company we haven’t identified as of yet. I personally think it’s a NY area company. This style appears to have been made for the WS between 1954-57. The spine material is unique to this maker.

Also, Randy, I think Egner was just showing different designs; not necessarily color variations. Your red probably has the same “value” as a gray example.

Is there a color version of Egner's book? Mine is black and white. How can you tell what color his pictures are?

Just found out about the existence of this pennant yesterday. Unfortunately it doesn't exist in my collection. Apparently, it comes up for sale with Halley's Comet like frequency. There are actually a few different ones with this theme. I love that it was deemed innocent in the 1950s but would never fly today (due to white outrage most likely, not Chinese).

Are there any similarly politically incorrect baseball pennants aside from the relatively tame and ubiquitous big nose Chief Wahoo and scalp waving Milwaukee Brave? Had never seen my Crackers pennant before, but not sure if that was politically incorrect as there aren't definitive origins of that name.

"Chinese Bandits" was the nickname for LSU's back up defensive unit in the late 1950s...known for their tenacity and toughness. Fairly certain, those qualities would be offensive today. :confused:

Egner book
 

The digital/Kindle version is in color.

Cool...Never even thought to look for that. Thanks

Edited to say that vintage pennants found to be offensive are in the eye of the beholder.

evidence?

SJWs? Are we getting political again? :confused:

Edited to say that some people like the nickname "Bums" as a term of endearment, and some may not.

We’ve covered this topic a lot, but I still enjoy a good before and after picture. I try to stay away from the color red, but this one improved quite a bit imho.

It’s a rainy and gloomy day here so the lighting doesn’t show the ‘after’ as well as I’d like.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...6b55fe2c42.jpg

C'mon, Mark. Please try to be better than this.

Ok- I cleaned it up... thanx

I didn't see anything wrong with it. Everything he said was true. Only a matter of time before the Chiefs, Indians and Braves have new names. Ant Jemima and Uncle Ben both gone. I know plenty of black people who are pissed about that. Who decides what's offensive anyway? A vocal minority it seems.

Great result Erik!

So who IS going to decide? You? Mark? I can, however, tell you who decided when slavery was legal. I can tell you who decided when Native Americans were being marched into oblivion. I can guess that a poll of Germans in 1946 would have shown overwhelming support for keeping the Swastika as the country's symbol. If things swing a little too far in the direction of trying to correct America's long and sordid history of oppression of minorities of all kinds, that seems a small price to pay in the ledger of atonement. I suspect, though, that many of the objectors have no interest in atonement of any kind, and probably little awareness that there is anything to atone for.

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay View Post
Also, Randy, I think Egner was just showing different designs; not necessarily color variations. Your red probably has the same “value” as a gray example.

Someone suggested there was a Kindle Version, and sure enough there is with color. My original thoughts came from the print version which is not in color. My thoughts on color came from internet searches. I have attached three versions here. One is from eBay and it was described as green and gold. The one that looks gray turns out to be a bad picture of a green one, BUT, the logos match.

Also, to be fully correct with my interpretations, the pennants depicted in Enger's book do not match up with the logos. The left side is different, and looks to be brown.

I got the one I have with the maroon background from Wheatland AH so I am sure it is most likely legit. I will try to follow up and see if I can get any further history from them.

It's a good and important discussion. But not for this particular thread (or even this forum). I edited out my previous comments, so we can just focus on pennants here.

I have a collection of Willard Mullin original artwork, circa 1940s-50s. Mullin created "The Brooklyn Bum" and used extreme characters to depict the Indians, Braves, Pirates, etc. I won't post the images, as many would be deemed offensive by today's standards.

I just found it interesting that the work of cartoon artists like Mullin/Gallo/O'Mealia graced the front pages of every major newspaper and The Sporting News every single day from the 1940s through at least the 1980s. Now it is a lost art form that is rarely seen. Perhaps partly because of the print media decline and partly because of the subject matter being more restrictive under today's standards.

Same holds true for the LSU Chinese Bandits Pennant posted by Rob... definitely would not be made today. Interesting topics for sure, but best suited for another day/another forum.

That's right. I will decide and every other person with a brain should too. Too many sheep in this country afraid to think on their own. But I think that will change soon. A lot of good people of all races are getting tired of the lunacy.

PS...The world decided slavery was legal. And slaves were acquired from black brokers in Africa. So what exactly are you implying? I leave that rhetorical, as Mark said, there's a place for this conversation but it's probably not here.

I think the “sheep” are the exact opposite of the SJWs....which, by the way, I had to google. The real sheep love their demeaning catch phrases.

Sorry, I had to say it.

One should only *atone* for the results of his or her own immoral actions. That’s not the same as speaking up for what is right.

Very nice …. Simple design but tough (and cool) pennant.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they're the exact opposite. I think they're afraid of the SJWs. Afraid to be called names or get cancelled for sharing an opposing view. So they just blend in to remain invisible from attack. They allow themselves to be bullied by them (a common tactic employed by the SJW among others) and they just go along to get along...regardless of what is truly right or just.

Here is a recent pickup for me. I guess it is Keezer? Or a copy of Keezer? It's not a full-size pennant. Maybe 3/4 size. The material is strange too. Almost like cheese cloth.

That's cool! One you don't see often, and really unique. There is a full-size orange version with that same graphic, but I like yours much better. Tough to find these white ones in such nice shape.

Great pickup, Marc!

As I mentioned, mine came from South America. I really kind of think that’s where they originated.

Mine was 99 cents with $25 shipping :p

How arrogant to claim that those who disagree with you don't have a brain, are "sheep." And who cares that you don't find the historical events being commemorated by these symbols offensive enough to warrant removal, enough others apparently do. And of course you missed my point entirely, that whatever overreaction and overreach in that regard pales in comparison to the suffering they represent. Feel free to fill your house with whatever historical representations you like, but I don't want to have to look at what you deem worthy to be celebrated in the public square.

Circa 1954 Indians pennant, anyone know the maker?

Hey, pennant guys
 

New pickup?? That’s a great flag!

Also a great pickup, Marc! I’ve not seen that particular one!

Random question - anybody thinking about going to Nationals this year? I haven’t decided if I’m going, and I’ve never been, but if you’re thinking about going let me know!

I believe this one to be by Trench based upon the dimensions, cloth material, and red spines. There's a similar graphic for the '56 NL champ Brooklyn Dodgers.

Respectfully … I’m not so sure about that. These seem radically different than Trench as far as design, graphics, etc. Do you mean red tassels? One thing they have in common (but for one below) is colored tassels with white spine. Trench almost all have matching tassels and spine, except it seems for some in the 1962-63 range.

I believe these are all from the same company …

Not me, I’m strictly an Atlantic City guy, missed out on last year. But if you go, be sure to take some pics if you come across anything nice!

Tinker to Evers to Chance
 

1913 was the first year the New York American League Baseball Team was known as the Yankees, prior to this season they were the Highlanders.

Future HOFer Frank Chance was the new manager, thus the first ever "Yankees" manager, little known fact.

May 17, 1913 -- Frank Chance Day at Comiskey Park (Yankees at White Sox)

http://www.connectingthewindycity.co...ce-day-at.html

I can't find another one online or at any auction house (REA, Heritage, Huggins, Goldin, LOTG, SCP, etc.). If you know of another example please let me know.

Sorry: I meant red tassels, yes.

Radically different? I think itÂ’s more of a close call ;)

Trench definitely used a white spine + colored tassels combo throughout the 1950s. You see that look on many different styles of Brooklyn Dodger pennants. But they also used the white spine + white tassel look then, too. (Even yellow spine + yellow tassels.). You are correct: by the early 1960s, at least on Los Angeles Dodgers pennants, they used red tassels + white spine + blue felt. That gave them a colorful look that of course complemented the teamÂ’s colors. I have no idea if they did that for other teams, or if it was a characteristic unique to the Dodgers.

Honestly I don’t think the color of the tassels is that helpful in ID’ing a pennant’s maker. I was more referring to the fact that your Indians pennant DID have tassels. That characteristic alone excludes WGN and ADFLAG from the discussion; and your mystery maker that we’ve all been consumed with identifying (the maker of the sliding runner series and the stiff arm footballer series — none of which featured tassels).

That really leaves Â… Trench, doesnÂ’t it? Tassels - check. Polychromatic artwork - check. Distinctive serif font - check. If the dimensions measure 8 x 26, and/or the itÂ’s made of flannel, thatÂ’s even more evidence itÂ’s likely by Trench.

Unfortunately, until we can extract the DNA from a pennant, weÂ’ll never really know no for sure who created it, right?

As to the four pennants you singled out Â… FWIW, IÂ’m confident the ca. 1950 Whiz Kids pennants is by Trench. IÂ’m on the fence as to the first Brooklyn pennant, which I think may be a phantom from 1951, perhaps? It looks like TrenchÂ’s work but IÂ’ve never seen it in person so IÂ’ll reserve judgment on that one.

Reds fan here, great job on a cool pennant. I never thought of cleaning a pennant. How did you do it?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Interesting. The 1954 Indians is full-size. Here’s a 1950 Trench Phillies. I don’t see anything in common here. Even the texture of the spine is different. … Can do same with the 1954 Indians … Trench made a few different versions for this season but they all share some common features. The one above just doesn’t seem to fit.

Now I agree not AdFlag or WGN, even though the latter did have tasseled pennants in the 1940s. I personally think this is another unidentified maker.

This also seems to be the same maker, there are a few of these “wide scroll” pennants (Yankees, Brooklyn) right around 1949-51. I know it’s not proof, but the scroll itself and font is radically different from the known scroll design of Trench. Don’t know of any other teams. It’s why I suspect a NYC area company.

Anyway, I find this interesting and appreciate your feedback!

You guys are amazing! Love looking at these wonderful pennants you keep coming up with.

Completely agree....

There's a mystery maker (still unidentified) who's responsible for these particular oddballs.

I appreciate your skepticism. I think the problem is the 1950 Whiz Kids pennant represents the tail end of a series Trench used for more than a decade, beginning in the early 1940s. As one would expect, pennants from this series will differ from those of the next generation.

Yours is right on the cusp of that transition from the old style to the new. Accordingly, it lacks some of the distinctive Trench characteristics we’ve come to associate with their 1950s and even 1960s offerings.

But, IMHO, that doesn’t mean it’s not by Trench. I’ve studies the old series and identified numerous instances where the supporting text (e.g., “N.Y. Yankees”) was reused on a different style pennant featuring known Trench artwork. That’s how I first made the connection.

If you apply the same logic as above, we shouldn’t be surprised to learn Trench made these. Trench was always considered an innovative company. There were even less pennant makers using polychromatic designs in the 1940s. This colorful design distinguished them from their competition; nearly all of whom were making monochrome pennants. Eventually, by the 1950s, other makers began making limited two-color pennants … but they were behind the times. In response, by the 1950s, Trench began offering team-specific pennants featuring unique artwork. We see this, for example, in their stadium pennant series. Again, nobody else was doing anything like this. Others eventually copied it … but it took some time. By the 1960s, they begin offering photo pennants, yet another innovative success that launched them ahead of their competition.

So your Whiz Kids pennant, in my eye, just happens to have been made during the transition from the old to the new style. That’s probably why it doesn’t look right, to you. But, that style, 10 years earlier, would have been cutting edge.

And, that means Trench likely made it, in my view.

No disagreement here. I think this wide scroll pennant was made by AMCO, A Brooklyn based pennant maker.

This pennant just sold in Hunt Auctions … the pennant is legit and the leather batter graphic varies a bit in these pennants … but this one looks strange to me compared to the one I have …

I’d love to know more details about these. Perhaps the first known “series” of similar style pennants made for different teams. My guess is pre-1910, before silk screening went commercial. The leather batter allowed for burning in detail that couldn’t be duplicated with sewn on graphics. I have three of these and they are all different sizes.

In a nutshell....hang vertically, use painter’s tape to both nang and protect the spine (I tape mine to the shower wall), spray with a bleach solution, rinse rapidly and completely with clear water.

I would start with maybe a 25% bleach solution. Caution: red can be a tricky color. Other ink colors are usually unaffected but I ruined a valuable pennant with red ink. Plenty of discussion and examples in this thread.

That's a super long one. It used to be mine, and re-surfaced in Hunts which closed today. The Batter looks like he had a little adhesive work done at some point, to overcome some loosened stitching. The outer cut of the die-cut Batter looks the same as yours. But the inner detail is much clearer on yours. Perhaps this is due to 100+ years of surface wear on the Hunt example, and perhaps yours was just burned in deeper by the "artist".

I suppose no two are exactly the same.... pretty cool. As I recall, the front of the Hunt's White Sox example faded nicely to an attractive baby blue. The reverse (unexposed) side was a darker navy blue. Great stuff!

The batter on the Hunt’s pennant appears to have had shoulder surgery.

Interesting! Moths love these pennants as much as I do …

The Hunt catalog for this one said "The batter, while appearing to be period/original, has been restored/restitched in a few areas. "

I wonder if that accounts for some of the differences.

Regarding WGN I do believe that they made pennants in the 1940s with tassels. Here are some examples which I think fit their style, they have tassels that match the body. The Browns pennant has a sister Cardinals version, and I’ve seen dated Tigers pennants from the mid 40s that are similar. It was around 1950 when they seem to have ditched tassels.

I suspect this is also WGN based on the font of the name … Johnny is still alive, maybe we can ask him? :)

Super-psyched about this pennant thst came today, another WGN, I’ve seen it only once before. This one is about mint, interestingly a bit small, 10.5” wide and a tick under 27” long. This is likely around 1951-52, since Minnie was still going by his real name, at least on baseball cards. Minnie was a cool player, too …

That's a cool pennant Greg. Nice!

Thanks Marc!

That’s a great pennant. Think how much a companion Ernie Banks would bring.

That would be an awesome find. This was a Chicago company and they made multiple variations of Cubs and Sox, so maybe!

Congrats to all who’ve contributed here, including our deceased and beloved compadre Mike Hoevet…

Leon please confirm, but I believe this is the first and only net54 thread to receive over one million views! :D

And many thanks to Baseball Rob for starting this great thread!

Aw, shucks. :o

Just the new guy trying to gain acceptance. I started it 16 days after I joined Net54. I have learned a lot from you guys and seen some incredible pennants.

Onward and upward!

Very cool WGN Negro league ASG pennant just sold, anyone grab it?

I believe baseball Rob posted the method a while back - although I don’t know the post number.

The process is basically staying the pennant with water, bleach and then water again. I will try to look for the original post as it gives good instructions. It’s important to keep the bleach away from the tassels and spine.

Rob, do you have the original post handy?

Let's see those banners!
 

Thought I'd play the B side this morning...

That’s B yootiful! :p

I don’t.

Here is a paraphrased set of instructions I use.

The process involved taking a spray bottle filled with water to saturate the pennant. After wet, take another spray bottle with bleach and spray on the fabric. Let it stand for a few minutes and then take the water sprayer and thoroughly spray until water has washed out the bleach. I usually dry by having a towel on the floor and another on top and dap the pennant. Then air dry. After it’s dry you can lightly iron the back of the pennant quickly and not too high of a setting as not to melt any graphics. Remember to tape the spine and tassels with multiple layers and don’t spray bleach close to the spine to to avoid bleeding.

Others may have slightly different processes.

I asked similar question back in March. Rob was helpful enough to repost the instructions on post #4384 with photos.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showpo...postcount=4384


There's also been a few people on the boards who are a fan of Retro Clean to wash pennants without bleaching them. I tried Retro Clean recently and it did a pretty good job.

Chris,
That banner and the buttons are sweeeeeet

Thanks, Rob and Jason.

Yo Chris great to hear from you and WOW … stunning! I doubt many of those were made and for one to survive in such nice condition? Great find!

Retro Clean works especially good on white cloth Trench and ASCO pennants. They seemingly don’t have inks that run. I’ve had some fantastic results with some pennants I bought early in my collecting days that got stashed away. But I had a cheaper knock off Phillies pennant that ran.

Now the spine and tassels will run and so that’s where some diluted bleach is needed to clean that up. It helps to run a dowel through the spine.

I even had a blue Phillies blue Jay pennant that I got cheap because it was filthy, looked like it was used as an oil rag. For the heck of it I tried RC and the results were great.

Great '61 World Series banner Chris!

Picked up a few pennants at an estate sale this weekend -- always glad to find vintage baseball out in the wild.

Greg

Thanks, Greg! Wish we had estate sales like that here.

Well at least this comes from a smoke free home …

Please.....at that price....and in Colorado.......oh they're smokin' something.

Thanks a lot for outing that one :mad:

I had my snipe set, cleared a spot on the wall, and everything! Now the whole world knows about it. Not cool!

LOL … a teeny tiny spot on the wall!

Yes indeed!

Better jump on the Buy it Now!

Well someone got duped … late 1990s repro sold by Mitchell and Ness. In fact my pennant collecting started with a purchase of their reprise and this was one of them… I don’t know of a full-size vintage Orioles pennant with that logo in color.