don't we all have one

recent finds

a couple more

71 and 73

sorry for the repeat

Those are pretty nice looking white pennants. I usually only see that Astros pennant stained and tattered.

I couldn't find this thread the other day, shocking since there are a billion posts, but I also listed these in BST. Not mine. From a store in Wallace, ID. Contact info is in that thread. Store clerk said the consignor had more pennants not on display. Clerk knew nothing about baseball, so don't ask him questions. Try to get in contact with consignor. Dodgers pennant is purple. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ec9912a97b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...809c07640a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d3f9fce263.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

The pennant or the "model"?

I had to take a closer look at this guys pennants because the way his girl was holding them made them look over sized. Alas...they aren't. And though she is a sight to behold (the pennant that is)...I have to pass as I already own this one in duplicate.

I'm pleased (I think) to add this atrocious New York pennant. It joins its ugly SF sisters. As I was putting the blue SF pennant back in it's sleeve, I noticed it is more of a fabric than a felt. Same with the spine, although you may not make that out from my photo. I’m not sure if this is what Greg calls “cloth” because it still seems like felt. Do we know who made these atrocities? My powers of recall are not up to those of Mark and Greg. I would say the thin tassels are an identifying characteristic.

The seller of the NY pennant originally had it on ebay for $350. He came down to $300 and then $250. I offered $150 and he said he was firm at $200. I hit him again at $175 and he accepted. He then wondered why I had only sent $150. I told him I had sent $196 to cover the price the tax and the shipping. He was not aware we don't call it "feebay" for nothing! :p

Hey Kyle –

Have you ever thought of combining all your pennant blogs into a cheap, Kinko’s type booklet? I tried to copy and paste them into Word but the pictures (essential) didn’t copy. Do you or someone else here have the ability to make a printable PDF? I’m sure many of us would love to print your blogs and keep them handy for reference; maybe in a binder. Personally, I would take a PDF file to my local copy center and have it printed on nice, glossy paper.

Who's got the skillz?? :cool:

Yes, the blue one is the type we refer to as "cloth"... easily distinguished by the individual threads that make up the pennant. The back-lit photo you posted shows it perfectly. Also (more often than not) this type of "cloth" pennant will have some stray threads protruding from its borders.

The green ones are true/traditional felt. Tough pennant... nice find!

The color on the blue one is amazing. Finding a cloth one that isn't faded is a feat.

Different makers must have used different “cloth.” I’m familiar with the flimsy ones that always have stray threads on the edges. This one, while being a woven fabric, feels just like felt and has no stray threads. Perhaps it’s a different thread? Cotton vs. wool?

The early cloth pennants seem thicker than, say, the 1969 ASCO cloth pennants. But I concur that the one pic with light from behind establishes it as cloth. And yes, to have retained its colors ... wow! I love the cloth pennants, how they look, feel, etc. My guess is that the first Trench cloth pennants were 1955 by virtue of the Dodgers scroll and the fact that none of the 10 different 1954 Indians versions are cloth .... I do have a 3/4 size Keezer STL Browns though ...

It's a great idea. But, I haven't thought to do it. Wish I knew how....

Does anyone else know how to PDF Kyle’s blogs into one file? Maybe someone who works at a university.......? :p

I'm pretty sure that anyone can "print" just about anything as a PDF (which saves it as a pdf), if you have the right version of Adobe.

However: I grew up right in the middle of Silicon Valley, my dad worked at some of the earliest Silicon Valley companies (i.e., at Fairchild "growing" the Silicon chips), but I'm about the least tech-saavy person around.

I'm glad that Rob got the Green-Giant. It was in nice condition. I had actually offered a bit more for it a few weeks ago, but the guy turned it down. Too bad for him. My favorite one in that family is the blue and yellow for some reason. The colors are so wrong for the Giants that they are right for that pennant. Would love to find one of those.

I did finally get this Giants 1958 pitcher pennant. I have several versions without the 1958, but always passed on this one hoping to get it at a lower price. And Erik won't trade me his ;)

Someday I'll take my own picture of it (it is in nicer condition than the photo suggests).

Milwaukee Brewers
 

Here's a team we don't talk about much but I thought this was interesting...This pennant was included in a lot I recently picked up and it's bit of an odd ball. 1970 Asco Trademark (I believe) but the pennant is soft felt. Not cloth. Not the stiff "felt". Really soft felt. Not sure I've come across a felt pennant post 1970. The topic seems vaguely familiar. Not sure if we've discussed previously?

And then, while doing some research on the pennant, I came across this recent sale of a different Brewers pennant. At first glance, it doesn't look like anything special. But, per the tax exclusive price, it appears this pennant really sold for $175 (not including $9.75 shipping and tax). Is it that rare or was the sale a fluke?

Top pennant is Trench. They have some with a 1970 trademark, I have a Trench Dodgers with 1970 stamp. Bottom pennant is ASCO. Easiest way to tell is the spine and the MLB in fat letters. Early 70s felt was still on the soft side to my knowledge. .... The ASCO here is likely a few years in, this also comes with a 1970 stamp.

$175??? Yeah that’s a lot. I’ve been noticing high prices lately for semi-common pennants. Good sign I guess.

But this one isn't "on the soft side". It's as soft as any pennant from the 1940s. I know with football, I haven't come across it before but I'm not as close to baseball.

Regarding the Brewers' price realized.... WTF?

Gotta be a fluke....

The last time I sold one of those, it went for $16 and some change. Same exact pennant... purchased it new at Anaheim Stadium in 1972, and not particularly rare.

Nice snag, Marc...

Now you've got me wondering who made this oddball series of pennants from the late '50s - early '60s.

Perhaps it's already been discussed but this grouping seems like a "one-off", featuring a very distinct look and certainly not made for all teams. Any idea which maker is responsible for these?

I think that these are WGN and that Kyle has a bunch pictured on his website.

I know that there are several versions of the Giants. Soft felt. Stiffer felt. With the 1958. Without. Bright colors. All grey or white. I think baseball Rob has a good number of them.

Definitely WGN of Chicago. As far as we know, this series began in 1958 (it includes dated LA Dodgers and SF Giants pennants) and ended about 1970 (there's a Reds pennant referencing them as "Big Red Machine").

Some of the early pennants from the series, such as the Braves one shown above, bear a mark from the "G.B. Feld Co." of Chicago. According to WGN, they used this pennant maker at different points in time in the company's history, e.g., when outsourcing made financial sense.

Many of the pennants from this series featured an illuminated stadium, a bat-skewered baseball, and/or a team slogan, e.g., "Sock it to'em" for the '68 Tigers.

I love these pennants. These are some of the versions that initially drew me to pennants back in the late 80’s. Those and the 50’s Milwaukee Braves.

Thanks Marc, Kyle and Jason... Great info as always.

I believe these WGN pennants were sold outside of ballparks as opposed to inside of stadiums. When I first started collecting (back in the dark ages), a veteran dealer/collector referred to these specifically as "Vendor Pennants".

During this same timeframe, I believe Trench had the market cornered on pennants sold inside the stadiums. But will defer to Kyle on that!

Any of the prolific pennant collectors here want to attempt a summary of the different materials used over the past century or so of pennant manufacture, including approximate dates of usage and which companies used what material, with illustrations?

That sounds about right to me, Marc. Trench definitely cozied up with ballpark concessionaires, which did put their products for sale inside venues. But, outside the venue, much like today, was a free for all.... Any street vendor could order a hundred pennants from Trench, WGN, ADFLAG, Keezer, and sell them outside for whatever price they could get.

To this end, contributors to this thread posted several photos of street vendors selling these pennants we know and love outside of ballparks. In fact, I recall a cool black and white photo of a vendor hawking an Atlanta Braves pennant by WGN from the above referenced series, not long ago.

But, because of Trench's partnership with the concessionaires, and the overall quality of their products, Trench's pennants probably sold better than anything their competitors distributed. Which is why their stuff is more prevalent on the resale market, today, I think.

Here's the photo I was referring to....

Great photo of "vendor pennants!"

That Braves one is actually pretty rare. Seems like you see the Cardinals and Dodgers the most from that series with all the "lines".

Question... suppose you paid a decent amount for a pennant, say over $100. You notice that the spine is not attached as it was originally, as you can clearly see the holes from the original stitching. Because, as avid collectors, we all know to look for certain things. Seller did not disclose this, upon reaching out to him he claims to have removed it to clean and then reattached it, says that it is not a transplant. I think either way, that’s something that should be disclosed due to the fact that it is not entirely original - many people might not care but I hold that it should at least be disclosed to let the potential buyers decide.

What are your thoughts? Is this reasoning valid, or am I an “uber anal retentive freak” (seller’s exact words) for not just shrugging off his undisclosed alteration?

Agree...

Any alteration including bleaching, trimming, re-coloring, spine transplant or tassel replacement must be disclosed. I can easily give a "pass" to ironing and removing pet hair with tape or a lint roller. Those more minor improvements do not change the original makeup or construction of the pennant.

The only grey area (to me) is the trimming of loose/stray threads on a cloth pennant. I personally don't think it's an issue, unless the scissors were to accidentally cut into the actual body of the pennant. Just my .02

.

This topic is complicated and filled with nuance IMHO. First, I think intent matters. I am not the best at crazy detailed descriptions when I sell, but I personally never try to mislead or omit information. I know I've sold to people in this forum and once or twice the condition wasn't what the buyer hoped for...in one case the camera phone made the pennant lot look brighter than it was, in another case there was a small portion of the spine (perhaps an inch) no longer attached. In both cases, I did not try to mislead the buyer... in one case the buyer returned the pennant lot, in the other I gave a significant discount. In both instances, since the buyers were a part of this forum, I really tried to make it right. I've also bought from people on this forum and in one case the condition wasn't what I completely expected, but again, I don't think it was intentional and because we're friends, I didn't give it a second thought. What's the point of dwelling on it? Finally, I've traded with people on this forum and in one example, the pennant I traded was believed to be fake. In that circumstance, we came up with an amicable solution. Point is, regardless of what character I am in the transaction, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt if I feel their intent is good. Hard to do when you don't know the person on the other end!

Now, I have bleached pennants before - improving their condition - and sold them. I didn't disclose it as I felt improved the aesthetics and I personally didn't think the disclosure was necessary. I can see how a purist may disagree, but my lack of disclosure wasn't to mislead...in fact, I felt it would confuse matters. But, that's just me! :)

Replacing a spine or trimming a flag (somewhat easy to see), if known, should be disclosed in my opinion. If somebody takes the spine off to clean it...that seems okay to me. I suppose it's impossible to know if the seller swapped the spine out, but again, if the person has a good reputation, then I'd trust that.

My point is, I think it depends and it's not a binary right/wrong.

my 2 cents

So, instead of the Pennant Savant we should now refer to you as the Uber Anal Retentive Freak? :p

lololol!

I'll vouch for Erik any day of the week... one of the very best guys on this forum and a great collector/friend. But I will play Devil's advocate, in regard to the bleaching disclosure. Bleaching can make substances more brittle over time. It can definitely affect vintage felt and make it "crispy" (for lack of a better word). Nothing wrong with doing it, as it is definitely the owner's prerogative. But when selling it really should be disclosed, IMHO.

Thanks, Mark! The feelings are mutual! And don’t get me wrong, you and most people on this forum are more avid collectors than I am, so my perspective is just that, my perspective...perhaps less seasoned, too. I do see your point and it’s a good one. I will say I typically don’t sell ‘high-end’ items so if I post condition as ‘good’, ‘fair’ or ‘vintage’, my general thought is there are flaws/integrity issues. But your comments are well taken and you’ve always been great to deal with - even if my descriptions aren’t the best [emoji2957]

Good insight, guys. I have no problem with someone who fixes up a pennant for personal display. But it has to be disclosed IMO if resold, if original stitching is replaced. Let the buyers/bidders decide. I have a host of questions that I usually ask about a pennant if I don’t know the seller and if it seems that the seller has no experience with pennants. I think such a person might not think twice about innocently trimming a pennant, etc. In this case it was a seller who clearly should know better. I’m getting a refund - it’s owed to me of course, given the circumstances - so still it’s not really the fact that he tried to pull one off at my expense. Well maybe a little since I’m not a complete stranger to this guy. Like Erik suggests you should perhaps take extra care with people you know and people who have previously purchased from you. But it’s the fact that he had the chutzpah to insinuate that I was the problem in the transaction that really irked me.

As a side note, I do suspect it’s a full spine transplant, but either way given the totality of circumstances I believe disclosure was required.

Duplicate post. Deleted

Duplicate post. Deleted.

Well...Allow me to retort...

"You can't know it all yourself. If you think you do, you're destined for mediocrity."

--Donald J. Trump

"The dumbest people I know are the ones who know it all."

--Malcolm Forbes

"The less a person knows, the more stubbornly they know it"

--Rajneesh

"The biggest idiot you will meet in life is the person that thinks they know everything."

--Christopher Jones

"Trench never used that color thread."

--Greg Manco

Mark...I respect your opinions greatly and thank you for sharing them. Obviously, you're considered an authority on the topic of pennant collecting, that's why your name appears in the acknowledgments of Mike Egner's book (oddly, I don't see Greg mentioned. Puzzling). But Mark, in your own words, “cleaning is fine” (Post #4383) and this is not intended as an accusation in the least…just a reminder…you’ve told me that you use fabric glue to secure loose spines. You even told me the brand…FabriTac. Now I’m sure you didn’t do this to deceive, I just know you’ve sold quite a few pennants via LOTG and elsewhere recently. I don’t ever remember reading about fabric glue in any of the descriptions. Maybe you haven’t sold these pennants yet. I mention this only to show the variability that exists in the arbitrary pennant rulebook.

Greg himself has his own set of arbitrary and self serving rules (See Posts #3685 and #4378). He feels gluing a photo on a picture pennant is fine but gluing tassels isn’t. Coincidently he just happened to have a pennant with a loose picture. How convenient is that? And he’s a big fan of Retro Clean (Note his use of the word “another” from which we can deduce he’s done this more than once). But fear not, we can all be sure, when it’s time to sell…He’ll “disclose” he washed (and glued) his pennants.

My thoughts on cleaning also appear in post #4378, so they shouldn’t come as a shock to anyone, least of all Greg since he lives on the forum probably more than anyone (even Rob) and I doubt he’s ever missed a post.

As much as he'd like to think he is, the pennant savant is not the James Beckett of pennants. There is no James Beckett of pennants. Just as there is no PSA for pennants or grading system for pennants. The closest we have is Mike Egner and he states...

"All price ranges given are on the condition that the pennant is in excellent condition, with no alterations. Alterations would include:

*Trimmed or cut edges
*Colored in Graphics
*Dates or names written on pennant
*Tassels cut off"

You'll note there is no mention of cleaning.

And while we all have differing opinions, much as we would like them to be, none of them are hobby accepted standards or rules. They are just opinions. In 25 years of pennant collecting, I've never seen one description that said "this pennant has been cleaned". Yet, Dave "The Pennant King" Stark (I think King outranks Savant, can anyone confirm?) has an entire section on pennant cleaning on his website and states that he receives regular inquiries on how to clean pennants. How can it be that none of these cleaned pennants have ever been sold? He also states it was common practice in the 50's and 60's for people to mix and match spine and tassels more to their color liking. So, any effort to identify a pennant's origins via spine/tassel...or better yet...wait for it...thread color is a fool's errand. For the record, I told Greg if he could produce just one listing since the dawn of time that stated a pennant had been cleaned, I’d let him keep the pennant in addition to refunding his money. I haven’t received anything.

Once disclosing cleaning becomes the norm, I'll include it in my descriptions. In the mean time, when I sell my house, I clean it. When I sell my car, I clean it. And when I sell my 1983 Journey Concert T-Shirt, I don't disclose that it once had a Boone's Farm stain on it. Too each his own. If you prefer your pennants with 70 years of dirt go buy one like that. In the mean time, when I sell something, I want it to look as good as possible.

As for Greg...His reputation as a PIA and bully predates my dealings with him, but I quickly got to experience this myself. The first incident involved a 1960 All Star Game pennant that had a defect in the graphic that was CLEARLY VISIBLE in the pictures I sent him. Greg is a devil for the details...except when those details ARE SHARED WITH HIM (as evidenced by his recent purchase of a Dallas Texans pennant that looked like it was constructed out of parchment paper and duct tape).

Anyway, the 60 All Star Game pennant was his first return...until I offered to refund $50 (off his already Friends & Family discounted price) and let him keep it. He jumped on that. Annoying for sure, but he's a community member so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Then in the months following, he proceeded to dictate low ball offers to me and then pitch a fit when I accepted better offers. It was at that point he was added to my "do not sell" list (a list that is comprised of one name). Sadly, I didn't know his ebay user ID so I couldn't block him. And what does this genius do? The genius that thinks I'm dishonest? Last week he buys another of my pennants. I immediately texted a couple people on this forum and said get your popcorn ready because I knew what was coming. The self proclaimed pennant savant did not disappoint.

Just so there's crystal clarity, I have no problem with anyone returning anything I sell. On ebay, I have nearly 4,000 positive feedbacks and zero negatives, earned over 20+ years. I think my reputation speaks for itself. My problem lies clearly and only with one person.

Last word...Greg really thinks he knows the color of every thread Trench ever used. Yet, he can't tell if the spine and tassels are original? This is the mentality you're dealing with if you choose to interact with him (not to mention his arbitrary, hypocritical and self serving rules). Good luck.

Oops, accidental duplicate ..

Holy s*** this guy is completely unhinged! LOL

I’ll just point out the one gigantic lie above, namely that he didn’t know my eBay ID, as I bought this from him on eBay shortly *after* he sold me the pennant repaired with super glue. (It was last September.) I won’t waste my time boring you with the other stuff, except to say it’s basically a big pile of crazy, if it isn’t already obvious.

But let’s remember how we got here ... he expected me to shrug off an alteration that he didn’t disclose. I simply requested a refund, he agreed to give one to me but not without insulting me in the process. This wasn’t some old lady who skims flea markets and has no experience with this stuff, but a collector who should and does know better. Clearly he was hoping to pass it off to someone who wouldn’t care or know to look for it. I unfortunately spoiled his plans to pull a fast one. Temporarily, I’m sure.

And since this liar can’t even quote me accurately, I’ll post my complete email reply to him that discusses the purple thread.

Big difference between saying “Trench never used that color thread” and “... purple thread which I can’t recall ever being used ...” .... and for that matter, only mentioned as what tipped me off that something wasn’t right.

While we’re talking about other red flags, and since this surely isn’t the first or last of your altered-to-flip pennant creations, please also be aware that Trench didn’t knot the ends of each stitch as on this pennant ... this, of course, is why their original tassels often fell out. Something for the rest of you to look for if you’ve purchased from him.

Lastly, as for him sorting through my old posts to try to claim I am self serving ... I have no issue with someone cleaning and even repairing pennants for personal display. I’ve done it. I’ll probably do it again. But I am pretty much exclusively a buyer/collector. The line is drawn when it comes to *selling* them, and simply having the integrity to disclose what you have done. And actually if I ever do sell the few I have fixed up, I’ll do exactly that, even though you’d like to pretend otherwise to convince yourself that you’re actually not morally wrong here.

If it’s no big deal, why not just disclose what you did? Because the answer is obvious.

That’s all I have to say about this, unless it is to disprove more lies.

This guy thinks I have his eBay ID committed to memory because of one sale 7 months ago? I didn’t even know who “Greg Manco” was until Marc B mentioned the name. I asked who that was and he connected the dots to Net54 for me. That was within the past year. I didn’t even realize it was you this time until I printed the shipping label. Get over yourself. You’re not that important Greg.

And I’d love to hear the “super glue” story. This is news to me. Please share the details. I don’t know what’s weirder. That you didn’t mention it at the time (extremely unbelievable) or that you kept hounding me for more pennants right up until just last week.

And if anyone here isn’t happy with a pennant I sold them, by all means let me know. I’d especially like to get my Niners pennants back from Marc B. :)

Well I said I was done with this unless I had to disprove more lies from this guy, and here I am back again so you know what that means. He claims I never mentioned the glue on the ASG pennant “at the time”. Here’s my email to him upon receiving the ASG pennant, back in September.

Can you please do me a favor and stop lying now?

The one thing I’d fix in that email is my giving him the benefit of the doubt that he acquired it this way. I still have no proof otherwise, except that now I wouldn’t trust him for an accurate weather report if we were both standing outside.

Seriously Rob, just stop lying. I could ask you to produce evidence of me throwing a “hissy fit” when you didn’t accept my offers, but of course you can’t, because I didn’t. Just please ... tell ... the ... truth. You’ll find that life is easier that way. I can start forgetting about your very existence and you can resume pushing fugazi Frankenpennants on unknowing eBayers.

No worries, as long as it gets us toward a million views! :p

I see we did hit the 5000th post. This thread: my greatest lifetime achievement. :p

You truly are a lunatic. I referenced the defect in the graphic in my earlier response. Can you please go back and circle where you mentioned "Super Glue". Oh what's that? You meant "glue" not "Super Glue"? Are you lying or did you misremember what you had actually said in the email? In Manco Land is only Greg allowed to misremember? All I remembered was that you complained about something that was visible in the picture.

And here's the fun part. I paid $280 for that pennant. I wouldn't have paid $280 if the paint was hanging off as you theorize it must have been. Then I let you have it for $230 and on top of that I refunded another $50! So by all means, if you want to sell me that beautiful pennant for $180, I'll take it. Where do I send the money?

$180 for a 1960 All Star Game pennant that is in otherwise mint condition and you think I'm ripping you off? Prove it by selling it back to me.

And since we're sharing emails, here's my initial reply in which I so egregiously insulted him...though it's odd he'd be offended by being told he's no longer welcome to buy pennants from someone he considers dishonest. Then again, he continued to buy and/or try to buy my pennants long after the 1960 AS Game sale so who knows how this guy thinks.

By all means send it back. As an FYI...I took the spine and tassels off to soak them in Oxy Clean foam. They were pretty dirty but not damaged so I figured they'd clean up nicely which they did. I thought the spine was reattached pretty cleanly but if you're not satisfied, no worries.

It will probably be easier for both of us if you just don't buy anything from me. Seems you have quite a few issues with me (and others). No offense intended. Hope you understand.

PS...I highly recommend Oxi Clean Foam for cleaning tassels and spines. Works fast and doesn't damage the material at all.

LOL...I didn't know if the post was too long or if the reference to Trump was filtering it directly to the recycle bin. It didn't show up for an hour and only after I tried a third time at which point all three posted. But happy to help the cause. ;)

Deal. I’ll ABSOLUTELY sell you back the ASG pennant for $180, please add $5 towards shipping, I’ll pay the rest and mail flat. I have it stored in a tub. I was going to sell it soon, but since I actually have integrity, I was going to have to disclose the repair/alteration, thus I was not confident that I would get a good return as a result. So you fixed that for me, thank you. You will surely do much better with it, maybe even get $300-400 or more, since you have clearly demonstrated to be without a conscience and will likely not disclose the issue to potential buyers. And if the buyer actually does bring it to your attention, you can once again pretend not to know about it.

You have my email address, you can send it via PayPal, wait until Monday if you want, I’ll mail on Monday and post the receipt.

Oh and I apologize for not referring to the *type* of glue in my initial email, as if that is relevant, of course I figured you’d do anything but own up to your dishonesty.

Thanks for the purchase,

Greg

P.S. ... If you were so certain upon me buying that altered pennant that I would have an issue with it ... you wrote something about “getting popcorn ready” ... why didn’t you just reach out to me immediately to inform me of what you did to it, let me decide, I would have let you cancel and you could have reposted. You knew full well the shadiness of your own actions, you just hoped someone who didn’t know any better would buy it. Again: we are here right now because you didn’t have the decency to disclose an alteration in a sale. Again: it’s much easier to not be a lowlife.

And one more note on this...There are numerous people on this forum who can corroborate that the Pennant Almighty has been on my "do not sell" list for months. I'm fine with any of you, if you are so inclined, verifying that. I'd hate for Greg to go on thinking that I lied about not knowing his ebay user ID. :rolleyes:

5,014 posts, and counting.... and 5,000 of them make for great reading! :rolleyes:

Seriously, it's pretty clear that every collector sees these things differently, and there is no clear cut "right or wrong". I gave my opinion on disclosure, which is just that... an opinion. I tend to suffer from some level of OCD, and that definitely sways my thinking. Other "more normal" people are (I'm sure) have more lenient standards.

Hopefully we can all get along as we have up to this point. In all seriousness, I have really enjoyed trading and dealing with every single person here. This great thread has had an incredible run, and has the most views of any on net54 (including the main card side!) It would be a shame to see it turn negative as a result of this minor bump in the road.

I could give a s*** if I was on your “do not sell” list. I’m obviously on that list because you can’t sell me altered pennants without me calling you out on it. I take this as a badge of honor. And of course you could have fixed that by just getting in touch with me right after the sale and, you know, actually being upfront and honest about what you did.

Again, we have a deal on that ASG pennant.

Greg

My reply to this is going to be so good...but now dinner is ready. Stay tuned.

Greg...You might want to get your popcorn ready.

c’mon guys....take a deep breath....life’s too short.

Greg...I seriously contemplated cancelling the transaction but as I said I didn't realize it was you until I created the shipping label and I didn't feel like throwing the $10 postage away....or waiting 2 months for the USPS to hopefully refund it. And I knew it would be a problem because you've been a pain in the a$$ in every way possible since we started corresponding, less than a year ago.

"Do the tassels wiggle?"

"I see a loose string, so I'll offer $50 less than the $125 you're asking"

"This defect was in the picture but I'm going buy it anyway, then return it"

"I'm interested in your beautiful 1940 Tigers pennant but it has to be at my price...oh and (this is good) you have to throw in another pennant"

"Hey can you put me in touch with your contact in XXXXXX?"

"Hey did you give your contact my info yet?"

"Hey the pennants arrived but i'm going to have to return them". (Tell us Greg...Am I the only person you contacted about returning pennants this year? Popcorn munch popcorn munch popcorn munch...)

Bottom line...I knew what was coming because you're predictable and I've heard similar stories from others.

I haven't even gotten to the good part yet...And what follows isn't it either.

Who's the liar Greg? You expect anyone here to believe that you're worried about losing money at $180? If that's the case, why would you accept the $50 refund? That doesn't make sense at all. Come on man. And you were "just about to sell it"? LOL. But you held on to it for 7 months because....

Surely this wasn't your best effort was it? And for everyone's benefit, I've attached a picture of the $180 pennant Greg's "worried about taking a loss on". BTW...My $180 sell price INCLUDED SHIPPING. But, hey...You're cheap. I'll throw in an extra $5. No problem.

It's about to get good. If you have to pee, I suggest you go now.

You're either a bad liar or a great mis-rememberer. Here's our correspondence from September regarding the 1960 All Star Pennant (if anyone would like me to forward the email, just reach out).

Sept 18, 2020...From Greg:

Hey Rob how are you? Just wanted to say I got the pennants, thank you. One thing about the All-Star game pennant I wanted to bring to your attention. Let me say in advance I’m sure that this was something that existed when you got it, and were unaware. It looks like at the bottom of the scroll where the managers name is listed, Walter Alston, that the O in his name looks repaired, as if the white inside was glued back in place. Close up it looks like there was glue and some discoloring. When you pinch it, it is thicker, too. I didn’t notice this in your pics on eBay or net54. (Attaches are closeups, coordinate it with your existing pics, you can see it looks a bit unusual.) You’re a pennant guy so I’m sure you understand, are you willing to accept a return? I do like the other Athletics pennant ... what if anything do you suggest?

Sept 18, 2020...From Me:

Hey Greg...No worries. I never even noticed that. It looked like a very clean pennant to me. I guess I'm more focused own the spine/tassels and tip. Can you tell what was actually repaired? Seems odd unless there's a hole or something. Of course, you can return the All Star and I'll refund the $230 or both for the full $350. Whatever you prefer. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Sept 19, 2020...From Greg:

Rob thanks for understanding. It’s not a hole that goes all the way through but like someone replaced or fixed the paint inside the ‘O’ which as a result is larger than the other letters. You’ll see what I mean when you get it. I’ll return both if you don’t mind. Will pack and resend as they came, my earliest opportunity to go to the post office will be Tuesday though, if that’s okay. Thanks again.

Sept 19, 2020...From Me:

Weird. I just compared it to others on Worthpoint. There are only 3 NL versions (all different colors) and the only black one had the same "O" like that but it could be the same exact pennant. If so, the O was like that in 2014 too. Don't understand the point of making a repair to something so small unless there was a hole . I'll check it out when you send back.

Sept 19, 2020...From Greg:

Hey Rob ... I was packing these up to return and decided (if okay) to hang onto the other A’s pennant. Was a little steep on its own but it’s nice, it replaces one that I have in lesser condition. Thank you for the option, I appreciate it. Regards

Sept 19, 2020...From Me:

Sure Greg. Your call. I'm ok either way. If you want to keep the All Star, I'd refund $50 if that does anything for you.

Sept 19, 2020...From Greg:

Oops emailed crossed... I wonder if it is same pennant, there are other features that would identify it ... do you have a pic?

Sept 19, 2020...From Me:

I've attached. The resolution isn't the best on them but there are four. I compared to mine and it's hard to say. Don't see much to differentiate, though the colors are more vibrant on mine. Might just be the lighting in the other pictures washing them out.

Sept 19, 2020...From Greg:

Ok I will check when I get home, at baseball practice now. I do see a little dot above the L in Musial that shows up in your pic and in Worthpoint so am inclined to think same pennant ... unless of course that too is a shared imperfection? Not sure ..

You'll note quite a different tone in the discussion back then. You'll also note, whatever was done to that pennant...if anything... was done in 2014 at the latest. I bought this pennant in 2019. I didn't even buy my first baseball pennant until I moved to Texas in 2016. I don't think I even joined Net54 until 2015 (don't quote me on that Greg lest you think I'm lying...I'll have to check the date).

Here's the verbiage from that 2014 listing:

NEAR MINT VINTAGE VERY RARE PENNANT FROM THE 1960 ALL STAR GAME IN KANSAS CITY MISSOURI. ADD $8.00 SHIPPING

Compare that verbiage to what I use in my ebay listings. Not even close. I don't use all caps. I always offer free shipping. So I didn't own this pennant in 2014 when it clearly already had the imperfection.

What we have here is pretty clear. Greg falsely accusing me publicly of altering a pennant when he knew I didn't do it. People get sued over things like that Greg, so I just have to ask...Are you still on record accusing me of altering the 1960 All Star Game pennant?

Actually, you doesn’t understand defamation law, along with most elements of common decency, and the fact that I simply don’t trust you, nor should anyone actually. I’ll expect your payment Monday.

Oh you’re absolutely right, this is my cue to exit stage left. Let’s again remember how we got here, a guy altered a pennant himself and didn’t disclose it, then shamelessly insinuated that I was the problem in the transaction. I think it’s safe to say that any serious collector here reading this would be equally perturbed to be on the other end of that purchase.

But then it got worse. I raised this issue to get other opinions because (a) I was personally curious and (b) this person would get some confirmation that his actions were not on the level, so maybe he would not do it again. Mark, I guess your “OCD” makes you a card carrying member of the Uber Anal Retentive Freak Club. We surely aren’t alone.

But even so I did so without mentioning him by name or even hinting at his identity. He decided to make it personal, revealing even more about his character, even including my last name multiple times which is nowhere else on this site, not even in my profile. So we are crossing multiple boundaries here. Not to mention the lies and the unhinged, childlike commentary.

Now I get the reluctance to take sides, and that’s not what I’m after anyway. You all might be acting neutral - and that’s okay! I get that - but I have no doubt that some of you who have bought from him in the past might be quietly taking another look at those items. But anyway, this is now a clear distinction between ethical and unethical conduct, one that originates in a violation of what I consider a cardinal rule of collecting. Not the alterations per se, but the lack of disclosure. And so this place may not be for me anymore for this all to be tolerated in its entirety. Not that I want anyone booted, of course not. He means nothing to me if he’s here or not. But at some point there needs to be more standing up for what’s right.

So it looks like I’m out .... And that’s fine! I’ll keep collecting.

Greg

My gosh, fellas.....

Oh one last thing, I do greatly appreciate the discussions I’ve had with the rest of you, you’re all great guys and have contributed a ton to my love of collecting. I’d name you all but would be afraid of leaving someone out by accident. You know who you are. Feel free to reach me by email if you ever get the urge to say hello or discuss pennants.

Greg the UARF

Answer the question Greg...Did you accuse me of altering the pennant when you knew I didn't?

Is this part where we're all supposed to beg you to stay? What are you 12?

Greatest Pennant Thread
 

This is the greatest Pennant thread ever. We are such a niche group and have some of the best (if not all) pennants in the world.

Let's try our best to move forward as group. Occasionally we all have different views but PENNANTS unite us all.

I have been collecting with my father for 26 years. I have bought from numerous members over the years and they have helped me find pennants I have been dying for. I have never shared photos with the group but though for the sake of the tread I would include one. I had custom shelving built in my home to display pennants. Here is one of my displays.

Long live Pennants and our Group!
-Jordan

Love seeing the pennants on display! Thanks for posting those.

Great pennants and fantastic display. Don’t be shy about posting more. It would be nice to get back to sharing what we have rather than reading arguments.

That St Louis Hawks pennant is awesome. Nice display

Love that display!

It looks a little pricey for me, though. :p

Really nice and yes, indeed, that STL basketball pennant is out of this world.

Finally!!!!
 

I have wanted this for a lot of years, have seen it bought and sold MANY times over the years, BUT THIS TIME IT IS MINE!!!!!!!! :cool::cool:

Congratulations! Beautiful pennant and frame.

That NBA St. Louis Hawks Champions pennnant is incredible!! I used to enjoy this thread now its just getting a little out of hand. Trench doesnt knot the ends of the thread and didnt use purple thread . Who new, who cares.

Greg- really great Mathewson pennant. I too covet that one.

Does anybody know how many of these have survived?

Mark, do you have that one too?

Well, to answer your question, those who pay a full price for a collectible believing that it is intact as it was originally, and then it turns out not to be, tend to care at least a little bit.

Not many. What’s both odd and cool is the extended spine, as if it was part of a string?