Net54baseball.com Forums - the list (of criminals) is revealed

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- - the list (of criminals) is revealed (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=217245)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1499045)

Your post is nauseating to me!!

I never shilled, never had anyone shill for me. Maybe you should direct your angst towards the culprits? I was a victim and, if the other years were seen, I bet I was a victim many, many more times. And do you really think if I did something wrong that someone (like you) wouldn't have turned on me? I sleep well at night, I hope you do with your ignorant statements. I did stick up for some of the culprits, before evidence was shown, and I was wrong and made mistakes in that area. But I never joined in their reindeer games and don't remember being asked to... Once proven wrong then all bets off and I hope they get what they deserve. BTW, I don't just post about it. I did something. I wrote a letter.. Did you?

And, If BY reading the last 500+ posts doesn't help you understand what went on, I don't think I can help you. As for you not posting anymore, why lie? Over the last 3-4 mos you have posted plenty. Whatever you say is fine just quit lying.

I read every post.
What you're saying is that you never overheard, never had the conversation, never knew that many of these people whose business you extolled and lent advertising and brought people to their businesses.....never heard knew anything about what was going on?
If so, then good on you. You did absolutely zero wrong.

But I remember a super early thread I posted on, many many years back, and it involved the chopped down Wagner.
From memory you suggested you knew what had happened, as did others, direct from the source, but were unwilling to call them on the carpet for it, to name names.
I suggested that was as poor as any other action, because to allow the criminal act to continue as mere rumor and mythology hurt many and the hobby as a whole.
You went, phhfft, and told me I could mind my own business.

I have gotten that feeling many times reading this board, that there is a sense that some in the know of things that aren't kosher are willing to keep their hobby friends clean of a thorough dousing in the shit.

You're suggesting you're not that person.
OK. I'll accept it at face value.
Strange to me still you have posted such little thought and opinion on this site on such an important hobby topic.

I also made point to address my post to any other 'Leon' type hobbyists who were big player friends of many who have committed the criminal acts that they have. Not just you.

As to my posting.
I was referring to being an active participant on this board, rather than posting the odd picture of a card or piece of memorabilia in a thread every so often.

For a couple of years I read these boards daily and participated regularly in discussion and opinion, most of which I was the learner of - not leader of. It was fun, but became less so because of the caustic nature of some posters.

Interesting that out of what I wrote, all I see is knee jerk reaction around Leon's name, and little to do with wanting to find out more from any and all who could tell it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElCabron (Post 1499077)

Why in the world is Leon being attacked in this thread? I didn't see his name on that list and I haven't seen him defend anyone that's on it. But I've read plenty of posts about how so and so shouldn't be on the list because there's no way he'd ever do anything like that, only to find out that so and so was guilty. I've been asked to give the benefit of the doubt to guys on the list. I've been told not to jump to conclusions, because perhaps there's some logical explanation for someone's buddy to have bid on 80 of his friend's consignments. Perhaps he just really REALLY liked his collection, right? I've even had to read post after post about the topic of shill bidding by one of the shill bidders named on the list! And the whole time, anyone on the list could very easily come here and defend themselves and tell us about their innocence. But they won't because others are ignorantly defending them, and, more importantly, they are freaking guilty!

If you have issues with Leon, that's fine. In this particular thread, however, I can't understand why those issues would have to come up, other than to deflect form the original title and spirit of the thread. There are people not on the list that I don't like and have ripped me off, but there's no reason to bring them up here. Do you see me bringing up Dave Kohler? No. Why would I bring up Dave Kohler just because it wouldn't have surprised me at all to see Dave Kohler on the list? Even if I think the same list could be made based on a different auction house that would probably have Dave Kohler's name on it, there's still no reason for me to bring Dave Kohler's name up in a thread about a list of criminals that doesn't even have Dave Kohler's name on it? Make sense? Dave Kohler. Dave. Kohler.

Anyway, There seems to be a lot of misdirected anger here. It's not difficult to figure out where it should be directed. THERE IS LITERALLY A LIST OF THEIR NAMES!!!!

Let's start there and move on beyond the list after that. But let's not ignore the list or let it fade into the archive afterlife just because the thieves named in it are too cowardly to come here and speak for themselves.

Don't let this blow over and revert back to business as usual again.

-Ryan

Hey Ryan, just quickly.
Do you think that list of people exists in some sort of isolation?
That others didn't participate. That others knew and kept quiet?
Your fixation with a list of names is fine, I'm thinking any and all who know more and are willing to tell more should come and do so - regardless of whether they made your list, list, list, list, list......
See, I can do it too!;)

Look, Leon has made plenty of mistakes in his life and usually owns up to them pretty quickly. And as he has posted, some of his mistakes are pretty severe

But in this specific case

As a buyer, why would Leon want to pay more than other people because his bids were pushed up. Why would he want to spend more money than he has to, so everyone in Chicago could get a new addition to their houses.

And B&L auctions used software to prevent things like this from occurring.

It's OK to call him out for his mistakes, but NOT OK to call him out for things he was the victim on.

Regards
Rich

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElCabron (Post 1499077)

.... Do you see me bringing up Dave Kohler? No. Why would I bring up Dave Kohler just because it wouldn't have surprised me at all to see Dave Kohler on the list? Even if I think the same list could be made based on a different auction house that would probably have Dave Kohler's name on it, there's still no reason for me to bring Dave Kohler's name up in a thread about a list of criminals that doesn't even have Dave Kohler's name on it? Make sense? Dave Kohler. Dave. Kohler.
...

-Ryan

No idea what happened with Dave Kohler, but I thought this was hilarious.

Saying that, I do think that folks can evolve in their thinking over the years. I mean, hey, most of these auctions were ~9 years ago. There may have been some gray area where someone might have thought if they paid the full BP, it was okay to put a "hidden reserve" on their own items especially if they did not know the max bid for other bidders, especially if this only occurred 1-2 times and wasn't something that happened over and over again. I agree that this was wrong in 2007 and it's wrong now, but sometimes it takes a while for that view to become more obvious. I would be more concerned if these folks were trying to defend shilling as something that should still be okay to do.

I don't want to bring in politics, but there have been plenty of cases where at some point in history, there were laws that were not always in the right and most people's opinions supported those laws. However, in time, people's opinions changed and the laws followed. Therefore, I think folks should be allowed to fess up, especially if they say that they know that what they did in the past wasn't correct, and they realize it now.

Maybe I missed it, but has any other auction houses come out publicly and indicated if they will continue to accept consignments/bids from anyone on the list?

DJ

For all you lawyers out there: Why doesn't any judgment in a case like this include restitution. This would both benefit the injured party as well as hurt the violator where it hurts most. Receiving a jail sentence counted in months as opposed to years, and without any restitution no less, doesn't remotely smell like justice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 68Hawk (Post 1499147)

If you suspect anyone who's not on the list, tie a pile of PSA-graded cards to them and then throw them in the lake - if they sink and drown, then they are innocent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott (Post 1499179)

If you suspect anyone who's not on the list, tie a pile of PSA-graded cards to them and then throw them in the lake - if they sink and drown, then they are innocent.

:p
Watched the Holy Grail with my 13 and 11 year olds just a couple of weeks ago.....wanted to see if the humour still translated.

It did for me! :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott (Post 1499179)

If you suspect anyone who's not on the list, tie a pile of PSA-graded cards to them and then throw them in the lake - if they sink and drown, then they are innocent.

:):):)

Quote:

Originally Posted by 68Hawk (Post 1499181)

:p
Watched the Holy Grail with my 13 and 11 year olds just a couple of weeks ago.....wanted to see if the humour still translated.

It did for me! :D

It will ALWAYS translate! I have nothing better to do, so think I'll watch Holy Grail right now.

I think this thread has been very cathartic (thus, necessary) for the board, but I understand how some got their catharticism taken care of quicker than others and are ready to move on. Too bad - it's a discussion board.