As I've said many times, if it's so damn legit and acceptable and accepted as Brent claims, why not disclose it?

I personally don't see any reason to avoid disclosure.

For someone in business, they maybe avoid it because in our hobby there's a stigma to it, even if it is actually a good thing.
Like I said, personally I'd disclose and take my lumps for it if any. Not everyone would, and maybe fewer would if the money involved was substantial.
I can't say that if it meant a difference in income of anything close to a million I would feel differently. (I suspect not, since I'm not altering cards... )

Sent over some info by PM, it's findable, but I'm not going to serve it to people an a silver platter.

And, PSA even labeled it wrong as a 1914. That could be part of the reason it sold for more if the buyer wasn't paying attention.

Another CJ Cobb undergoes card surgery
 

Plus no one hides the fact when there is conservation going on in other areas in life.

So the list of cards discovered doctored just keeps growing. Does anyone know how far along they are in the database for discovering how many there are in total?

Also, if PWCC is purportedly buying back doctored cards they sold, are they buying back only the cards that have been outed as doctored or are they preemptively buying back everything they sold originating from Moser?

So the list of cards discovered doctored just keeps growing. Does anyone know how far along they are in the database for discovering how many there are in total?

Also, if PWCC is purportedly buying back doctored cards they sold, are they buying back only the cards that have been outed as doctored or are they preemptively buying back everything they sold originating from Moser?

I don't believe it's anywhere close to an end, and the total number will never be known. The before and after "reveals" will continue for a very long time. The doctoring has been going on forever, and it is not easy to access all the impacted cards.

As for PWCC, they are buying back cards upon victims' request. I do not believe they are seeking out the victims on their own, or making voluntary refunds/restitution. Someone please correct me if this is incorrect.

The mass-butchering is not limited to PWCC, either. Hopefully the FBI is investigating PSA to the fullest extent, with regard to submissions by known or suspected offenders. That will lead to many more discoveries that the BO folks might never be able to uncover.

D304 Cobb
 

Brent purchase out oF REA.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5403

I know in at least one case, pwcc reached out to a friend and bought back a mantle they said had been altered - pwcc took the initiative. But I doubt that is the norm. I a bet they only do that for biggest customers and bigger ticket items and wait for the rest to come to them.

Peter, I saw that on blowout. It was a Lionel Carter card. It’s one thing to jack something old, rare and already super valuable. It’s another to piss on such important provenance.

He was only conserving it for the good of the hobby.

Seeing this latest cobb makes me hope that J lichtman took the case to intentionally lose it so Brent/Betsy rot in hell for the damage they've done to this hobby.

What are the odds???

Thanks for the response. No doubt this is the tip of the iceberg of what has been going on for some time by multiple dealers.

That's truly tragic that one of the rarer Ty Cobb cards, (and likely others as well) from the historical Lionel Carter collection are being altered (and losing its pedigree in the process) in order to make a profit.:mad::mad::mad::mad:

It turns out this card was first outed right here in 2017, on the WWG DiMaggio thread.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...&postcount=602

A CJ Jackson from the same PSA sub also was outed with a before pic.

Greg is banned? I know Kevin seems to think Greg is involved in no good, but in my direct experience with Greg, it’s the exact opposite and is a stand up guy. Indeed, he is apparently the one who outed the Cobb back in 2017 (per Peter’s post) and those efforts remain true to my knowledge. I hope Greg is active on blowout.

It makes that picture of the Wizard at the HOF exhibit all the more revolting, to me.

Greg has been very instrumental in the Blowout efforts.

+1

Good. In my experience, Greg is a solid guy and a friend of the industry (and he has great taste in cards).

Is it just me or does this card look way short ???? Left and right or maybe worse ???

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-...p2047675.l2557

Does anyone know if this was Outed on BO

Card looks narrow, but this one has not yet been outed. Last series of outed Look-N-See's start at page 199 and some have cert numbers starting with 423, so graded in the past year.

I like Greg
 

THis would be nowhere near as big as it is without Greg's efforts. He has been a bulldog in his pursuit of this story. Greg in my experiences is out to do good and right some of the major wrongs in the hobby. apparently he has done some transgressions in the past but i do not know that Greg the one i know has been a standup guy and been fighting for a cleaner more open hobby.I know he and Leon have always clashed but I do not feel Greg should be banned from NEt54. His work on blowout is evidence enough of that in my opinion.

what was the backstory regarding his ban? In my limited dealings with him seemed like a stand-up guy.

All the look n see's should be. I like the way that rolls out...Look and see how bad it's trimmed.

How can I find the list to research this ?

Thanks Chuck

I believe this thread was posted elsewhere, but I am adding it here because in addition to some modern stuff MANY vintage cards have been outed here from a new alleged card doctor.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1315750

Many new cards also have been outed on the '52T Mantle thread.

The only way to keep up with this is, well, to keep up with it.

This seller has been doing some vintage PSA set breaks on COMC with a lot of PSA 9s that now have to be considered questionable.

A tainted submission is on deck, according to BODA.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1#post14998656

Every that they list more bad cards is the less and less I believe anything positive will come from the FBI investigation

Hope I’m wrong

As it increasingly appears that a huge number of modern cards have been trimmed, and that many people are doing it, I would think it might be hard running a major auction without taking consignments from any of these people.

wtf
 

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=881

Presented otherwise without comment.

Quick, lets start a registry set with all of the trimmed cards out there. Maybe it can be the Trimmed Set category? Who will have the best set?

Peter, are they no longer posting altered cards on the Mantle thread?

There were a number posted fairly recently but the focus for the moment is on cardbuyer, another reputed doctor who appears to sell or have sold through PWCC. The submissions containing outed cards have not been reconstructed for quite a while but suffice it to say they would contain far more cards than I listed when that process was active.

I bet 48 Leaf sets would be relatively easy.

Seems that was Moser's special set.
I was at the National this year when a 50 something year old bald guy (like me) got on a hotel elevator with me. He saw me wearing my Net54baseball T shirt. He said something to the effect of "oh, you guys are the ones who are always mad and unhappy." :) I said, no we are the ones that don't bury our heads in the sand about fraud. I thought he was an idiot.

Thanks Peter. I have been following that cardbuyer thread as well, but all of those are more modern than what I collect, so I have no been as vigilant checking in there.

The stuff from the big pre-war doctors is going to be a lot more difficult if not impossible to trace. I doubt those guys are even going to try. The only way to ever get at the iceberg would be to see TPG submission lists, and even then you would have to know not only who the doctors are but who they submit through.

Leon, lets be a little classier. We are Vintage Contrarians. Are we not?

The right edge and top are also trimmed.

Presented without comment.

https://www.baseballcardinvestigation.com/

If you have had your sports trading cards graded by sports memorabilia authentication firms PSA, Beckett Authentication Services or SGC and sold at auction by PWCC.




Have you graded any sports card (baseball, basketball, football, etc.) by major sports memorabilia authentication firms PSA or Beckett? If so, you may be entitled to compensation.




Have you purchased a sports card from eBay seller PWCC marketplace? If so, you may be entitled to compensation.

Where are the civil suits? There can't be a problem unless there are civil suits! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Show me a scandal and I will show you plaintiffs' attorneys flying lazy circles overhead. Not that there's anything wrong with that; a civil lawsuit may be the only way PSA and Beckett feel the wrath of their victims.

The BO list of alleged sellers to avoid. Most modern I think but still perhaps of use. Supposed to be updated soon.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...85&postcount=1

Mainly modern but I still expected to see WAY more than the one Net54 member.

My impression is they don't accuse lightly. Certainly some familiar IDs there to those who dabble in modern cards.

Has anyone returned anything to PWCC successfully? I purchased a 66 Mays SGC 8 in August that I don't want to take a chance with, so I'm interested in any conversations anyone has had with Brent lately. Thanks, Alex

I think Betsy is the point person for recalling cards for which PWCC believes there is evidence of alteration and which PWCC offers to work with the seller and the TPG to refund, take out of circulation, and turn over to law enforcement.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Somebody seriously needs to post an update on this whole mess. Since the FBI got involved, what exactly has changed?

Unless they can delve deeply into PSAs database and inner circle, nothing at all will change. Unless the FBI forces the change, you will see nothing positive or proactive that is done voluntarily. Dishonest people and corrupt entities do not instill change unless they are caught, and the change is forced upon them. Hell, PSA still won’t even admit there’s a problem brewing... despite the endless flood of altered numerically slabbed cards being exposed every day (with no hint of a slowdown in sight).

This hobby/business provides no voice for the consumer... it’s just the same hyperbole and lies from the controlling “powers that be”. Since the hypnotized majority wants status-quo, and the offending companies won’t come clean, the FBI represents our last hope for full disclosure and positive change. Please don’t let us down!

"Don't rock the boat" and "Don't bite the hand" come to mind.

Well, I recall reading somewhere that the FBI guys sometimes attend the Net54 Dinners and then afterwards they all play a few games of Musical Chairs. Maybe a few of them post on this forum? An update from one of them would be nice. The only guy who did comment on this whole thing was Lichtman, but he got ripped apart and I doubt he'll be discussing this subject here again. LOL

There is zero chance an FBI agent is going to comment in public about an ongoing investigation, much less on a message board.

Well, it's not terrorism we're talking about here or a murder case. It's just a bunch of effing idiots trimmmmmmmmiiiiing trimmmming cards and making lots and lots of moolah. But they've already been outed by BODA. By posting a simple update, I don't think it's going to jeopardize anything.

Yep.... we just need to wait it out, and see how the cards fall (pardon the pun). Will likely take months for the Feds to sort everything out, and perhaps another year before we see/hear anything concrete.

I'd actually prefer to wait a year, knowing they conducted a full and thorough investigation, than have a hasty/shallow investigation that leads only to a few refunds and hand-slaps. It's worth the wait, provided their findings lead to stern sentences, crackdowns on TPGs, and other forms of meaningful change.

It can take years. See Mastro/Allen.

Lol.
Clct 28.49 usd +2.67 (10.34%)

Wow !!! This one is to hot to chase....

Scandal? Nah. LOL. Joe is winning big.

Agree Peter...

Guys holding big money in cards in PSA holders along with the investors aren’t going to change their minds. It’s the big time players that influence or move this industry...All logically this makes sense/fundamentally I do not like the longer term outlook for high end.

As long as registry collectors don't care if they are defrauded it won't matter.

Agree Leon....

But high grade sets on the Registry have lost their luster. I just say “meh, big deal, they are all trimmed”.

I think the Registry People fall into 4 basic categories...

1. Those who only care about the number on the flip. It does not matter to them, that the card is proven altered. Their undying faith and love for PSA supersedes any common logic and indisputable proof of alteration. They do not even question how the card received its assigned grade. They just like to look at the number.

2. Those who are in denial. They don't think there is any scandal brewing. They poo-poo the concept of card doctoring, and do not think the "before and after" photos constitute proof of any wrongdoing. They cannot even admit that the two images are of the same exact card. To them, the PSA assigned grade is the word of God.

3. Those who emphatically state "NOT MY CARDS". They acknowledge the doctoring and alterations, and PSA's thousands of grading errors. But miraculously, none of these "mistakes" apply to their specific cards! They know for a fact that their cards are good... either they were graded before the scandal, or they were looked at by a second set of eyes, or they were purchased from a reputable dealer, blah blah blah.

4. Those who care deeply, and value the credibility and legitimacy of their collections. They do not want any altered cards residing in their collections, yet they have no knowledge of the corruption. If they knew they were sitting on tainted cards (and spent huge sums of money acquiring them), they would demand justice.

I believe that #4 constitutes the biggest group. It's just a tiny percentage of collectors who frequent these forums, and are aware of what's really happening. If there was a better way to spread awareness, there would be more outrage, call for change, and ultimately some much needed regulation.

Excellent thoughts. I remember well a poster here from a decade ago who, at least in his public stance, fit squarely into category 3.

I think there is a 5) Those who believe many cards, including some of theirs, are altered but don't care, because all that matters is the number. They want that to be everyone's reality, and, to a degree in this hobby, it is.

I think that's category 1?

Isn't that the same as #1?

Edited to add: Peter beat me to it while I was typing.

1 and 2 are pretty much the same to me?

Nobody knows how much "help" any given graded card has received. What we think we know is that it received the grade fairly, it is authentic, and it's scarcity can be approximated by pop reports and other data. The "value" if there is any in graded cards stems from their rarety. The "reveal" in the Blowout saga is that the doctors are mining mid-level graded cards to produce high(er)-level graded cards. This is very threatening to the TPG business model. I have to believe that PSA is scrambling now to prevent that going forward.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

As long a people keep buying the number on the flip...nothing to see here

Good old Jim C.
Twenty thousand slabs and every one perfectly legit. And no creases on that Wagner. Both are accurate statements.

Wonder how Mr. Crandall is doing in his quest for however many sets in PSA 8 or better that he was one? Is he still in the hobby? He used to be a frequent poster on here and the CU boards but I haven't seen anything from him in years.

Interesting post on Blowout about card-buyer.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1272

Cross-reference to post 427 above.

WOW this is a new low. A dealer says a card is for their personal collection then turns around and sells it. Must be some kind of new thing we all need to look out for.:)

Here's a 2013 archived page where he claims he and his 9 year old son are passionate collectors.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130827...om/?page_id=32

1.WE ARE COLLECTORS just like you and have been buying cards since 1977 ….we are NOT DEALERS LOOKING TO RESELL YOUR CARDS AT A PROFIT. There is no need for a middle man looking to make money off your cards since we are purchasing for our own personal collection allowing us to offer more.

If memory serves, there was a thread last year about an email from PSA regarding the same person, again mentioning the apparently still 9 year old son.

EDIT TO ADD
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ight=cardbuyer

Since this is an ongoing investigation whatever happened to the bogus autograph scandal? I don’t remember any charges. I thought there were people here who know who but seems like no matter how much evidence is brought to light nothing is done. Or maybe I missed something? Or is it still in the works?

Are these the guys who put adds in big Papers Stating they will be at such and such hotel on such and such weekend buying card collections or are those different guys ?

I sure hope they will be successful in getting Rich's 9 year old son out of suspended animation.
http://cardbuyer.com/about-us