Inmate Abbott: “Hey Lou, what are you in for?

Inmate Costello: “Restoring cardboard, Bud”

Bud: “You work for Waste Management?”

Lou: “Naw, a smaller outfit up in Oregon.”

Bud: “Oh, and what does the outfit do with the cardboard?”

Lou: “They sell it......... to investors.”

Bud: “What type of idiot invests in cardboard?”

Lou: “You’ld be surprised. Big money involved.”

Bud: “Where does the cardboard come from that you restore?”

Lou: “I have to buy it, sometimes from the outfit in Oregon.”

Bud: “And they buy it back?”

Lou: “No, Bud, they sell it.”

Bud: “To you?”

Lou: “No, to the investors”

Bud: “They ship the restored cardboard to the investors then.”

Lou: “Wrong again, Bud, they put it in a vault.”

Bud: “Then how do they protect the restored cardboard in the vault?”

Lou: “They keep it in small plastic cases.”

Bud: “So how did you get paid?”

Lou: “Bud, I cut the cardboard in exchange for a cut of the resale profit.”

Bud: “Fair enough, sort of an eye for an eye type deal. So why are you in jail? Is cutting cardboard illegal?

Lou: “It depends, Bud. The outfit in Oregon stated in court that cutting to conserve was okay, but that cutting to alter was not.”

Bud: “But you said you were in for restoring cardboard. Isn’t that conservation?

Lou: “Go online and look at the evidence: one man’s conservation is another man’s alteration. There is not a clear cut difference, so to speak.”

Bud: “Gee, that’s terrible, Lou.”

Lou: “Yeah, 20 years is a stiff sentence for altering cardboard. By the way, Bud, what are you in for?

Bud: “Certifying cardboard and putting it in plastic cases.”

—————- to be continued ————

I’ve seen no evidence that PSA is crooked, i.e. graders being bribed. While it’s obvious that in such a sloppy company run by such a sloppy guy like Orlando, with such opportunities available, I always felt it possible. But without at least strong circumstantial or some direct evidence, I’d never come out and accuse them of fraud as I have with Brent and PWCC which I can easily say is a crooked operation, knee-deep in easily proven fraud. However, after seeing this before and after set of pics, what else can any objective person think? I mean that shit is crazy. Either Stevie Wonder is grading cards at PSA or something nefarious is going on. What else can it be?

Thanks for brightening my morning, Frank. :D

As I read it, I imagined the voices of Abbott and Costello.

Well.... in fairness I guess ... I think the size of these does vary and maybe the trimmer did something to make the edges look original. Maybe.

:Dhe turned it in to a mini! worth at least double.

While I think it is a crime, I know it's certainly not ethical. Brent is a snake oil salesman. That much I am clear about. Where there is smoke there is fire.

Let's assume you're Joe O and let's assume you don't condone this, even tacitly. What do you do?

And this is where we are at today. A few years more down the road, I think we'll find the evidence that PSA is GAI.

Exactly what they are doing now. Nothing. Deny Deny Deny.

I don't think so. GAI was a one or two person operation. PSA is a division of a public company. Not so easy to corrupt. But I have to admit I have no great explanation for some of these cards.

Start hiring competent graders and training them. Which means start paying them more than you pay for the guy who works the fry machine at McDonalds.

Plenty of public companies are corrupt. And PSA is not exactly run like a Fortune 500 company.

I still think that's the problem and not people being bribed. Naïve? Maybe.

The Mr. Jiggs gorilla who rode across my grammar school’s stage on a tricycle in the 70s could see how trimmed that card is.

Given all this we get cards graded because ..... ? It can't be trust, which is what PSA purported to sell. It can't be experience -- that ship has sailed. Protection? Maybe, although I don't know why an already altered card would need much protecting - how does or can its condition get worse than already altered? That leaves ... money and ego, which was EXACTLY what was actually being sold -- my card is better than yours. I hated grading when it started, exactly for the reasons stated here, kind of bought in to it later, and am now having to rethink it again. As Jeff said, having Stevie Wonder as the grader isn't designed to inspire too much confidence.

Man, this thread is depressing (but necessary) at so many levels. I guess I'll go look at some of my graded cards and try to figure out which ones don't deserve the grade they got. Reality sucks. At this point, I imagine I'm about as competent to do that as PSA's graders. That's really a sad commentary on the existing situation.

Registry which causes resale value. PSA offers nothing else.

Based on some of the cards BO has exposed, the trimmers are buying some fairly expensive cards to alter. Seem like they are pretty confident that they get trim the cards and get them in holders. To spend $500 or more for a card, you have to know you can get it holdered or else you have money to burn. Do you think they just keep subbing until it gets past the graders?

I get it. That's my conclusion too. How disappointing.

It's a new world my friend, just ask Brent and his fan club and apologists. Cards are now "assets." Collectors are now "investors." Your closet, or maybe safe or safe deposit box, is now a friggin' "vault." Well, at least you aren't charged sales tax.

Oh, and alteration is now "conservation." LOL.

It's not just the registry IMO. It's a brand-wide effect now, just look as one small example at Jeter rookies. I guarantee you most guys aren't buying those to register them, but the gap with the other companies has widened substantially.

Well, stuff trumps all, right? Until that mindset changes, nothing else will either. It is just that simple.

And the flip trumps stuff.

It hurts me to agree with you. :) But I do.

Note the date and time. :)

How many replies would a thread titled

Confessions of a Spurned Asset Trimmer

receive?

10. 4 for the edges, 4 for the corners, 1 each for front and back

Not to mention that it's way under size, and may even be tapered.

How that gets a 9 is a complete mystery. (Or maybe not.... )

They had a perfect chance and didn't take it. When they had a massive backlog they made a price change instead of changing to a system where they focus on quality but take enough time to get it right.

The minimum charge for a stamp is $35, and only a guess on time with no guaranteed turnaround. And as far as I know the places doing the work aren't exactly begging for work.

Yes but look at all the people who bitched and moaned about turnaround time, including here. They were responding to their customers. I don't fault them. Most people aren't patient. They can't even wait for auction houses to send their cards in due course. Instant gratification society.

And with grading it's PSA that set that expectation. If I remember it right, they were habitually late anyway, and their enthusiasts didn't usually care.

I sort of get the rush, I can't imagine an insurance company is happy if the expensive stuff stays in the building any longer than necessary. And Dealers of course want fast turnaround so their money isn't tied up any longer than it must be.

Without changing the overall scheme, I don't see a way for things to change

Collectors are impatient too judging by the posts I have seen here. When those of us a certain age were growing up there was of course no email, no texting, no overnight deliveries, long-distance phone calls cost too damn much to make regularly so you wrote letters to your girlfriend if you were away, etc. etc. etc. I think people today have a completely different conception of time.

There's that wonderful saying, I think it may be Spanish, slow down, we're in a hurry.

I also struggled with it for a long time. I always saw collecting as an extension of my childhood where we certainly didn't have slabs. I could also never come to peace with the aesthetics. My eye would immediatly go to the flip, then based on the grade, my mind would then start looking for the flaws responsible for the given downgrade(s). It just got to the point where I wasn't enjoying the actual cards anymore. I agree with you about ego and money. I've never had much of an ego but the money part was a concern for sure.

Then, several years ago, I was finally able to cut the cord with my concern of value. It took a while, but I got there, and it was extremely liberating. I cracked every single card I owned, including, but certainly not limited to, a '33G set and theT3 set I'm about half way done with. I started with the lowest dollar cards and kept working my way up. I realized that if I got up to a certain monetary value of card to where I just couldn't bring myself to crack it, then I couldn't comfortably afford that card and shouldn't own it.

It's really easy to get caught up and start collecting beyond your means. Now my entire collection is raw and I've never been happier with it. Would it be hard to sell raw? Probably. Would I get a lot less? Sure. But those are monetary concerns, which I can't care about anymore. The cards are the same, in slabs or out. I've since met a lot of collectors who think the same (yes, they're out there!). Do I have some altered cards (oh, i mean conserved assets) in my collection? Probably. But if I can't tell, and I can let go of the monetary piece (I.e. collect within my means for pure joy), do I even care?

If TPGs do nothing else, it's monger fear. Don't collect scared.

Brent speaks on this matter

https://youtu.be/_f3k5VSqVt4

Do you have a bat phone connection to Brent in your study or is he just on speed dial?

I listened to the first ten minutes of Brent's youtube video. Oh my oh my.

He differentiates alteration, which is an obvious attempt to improve a card, from conservation, which is a way to enhance a card without any of the work being detected. But what about the card doctors who alter cards with such skill that even the TPG's can't catch it? Doesn't that make it impossible to distinguish whether a card has been altered or conserved?

After careful thought I think I can sum up this new approach in just two words: Oy gevalt.

I can do it in two letters.:eek:

Exceptional post!

OK, I ended up watching the first ten minutes of that video. I see what Brent is trying to say, but I also see the significant problems with it. I don't collect art or comics, but I do dabble in a tiny bit of coin collecting. (I have one coin in my PCGS set registry.) In coins, people clean all of the time. In fact, you can pay your TPG a little more to do the cleaning for you. They add some chemicals, I think, and that removes some of the grime, etc from the coin. The coins still receive a number grade. This practice is mostly accepted by the coin community as far as I know, and people even like it after cleaning if their coins "shine" in a certain way that has some sort of nice color pattern.

So if you apply that practice to card collecting, that is basically saying that soaking with water is okay, and soaking with chemicals is somewhat okay if it is done right. This probably sounds reasonable to a generic collector although more experienced collectors will realize the problems with this.

The bigger problem is what T206Collector states with post 42. That is, the public finds evidence that a card suddenly got a much higher grade after some "conservation." PWCC seems to be basically saying they are not going to withdraw that card from the market, and send it back to the TPG. They are going to say that is now a legit card with the higher grade because the changes weren't caught by the TPG. I have problems with that. That doesn't sound right. I think that most of the times when cards go up in grade is due to "corner sharpening," and I can't see how that is "conservation" although Brent mentions spooning. Here are some ways to improve a card's grade:


(1) Water soaking to remove the card from being glued to a scrapbook.

I think this is acceptable as conservation, and many people do this, and is generally accepted. Saying that I have heard of some paper stocks that will explode if removed from a holder after being soaked. That is, someone soaks the card. It gets encapsulated with a nice grade. Someone tries to remove the card from its plastic prison. Card explodes upon removal. I guess soaking wasn't conservation there.

(2) Removing pencil marks from cards

I was against this at first, but it looks like there is gradual movement in the hobby to allow this. What really bothered me was one case where a collector went to a TPG, and right in front of the TPG, they erased the offending pencil mark, and the TPG then went ahead and put the card in a holder with a higher grade. That just seemed wrong to me. That said, I'm coming around on thinking this is okay as long as the pencil mark didn't indent the card, and somehow this indenting wasn't removed also. Is that really conservation also?

(3) Removing pen marks. Removing pen marks typically requires chemicals, and water soaking or erasure won't do it. Using chemicals on cards is typically a big no no in this hobby although it is allowed in other hobbies like coins if done right. Using chemicals on cards still bugs me. I think one part of it is the fear that although the chemicals may not damage the card in the short term, it may still be present in the paper stock, and damage the card over the longer term. That is, someone puts a chemical on a card, and it looks great! It gets holdered with a nice high grade. However, then over time, the card starts looking worse and worse in the holder because the chemicals are "eating away" at the card or something similar like discoloring it.


(4) Corner sharpening. I just don't see how this can't be alteration. OK, fine you flip a corner over. The card goes from 2 to a 3 for the grade. I can live with that, and say it's not altered. However, many of the examples we see, the card goes to 7 or higher in grade. That's just not possible. It seems to me what's happening is flipping the corner over, then soaking and pressing. However, it seems to me, what happens is that unless paper stock was added (or the card was trimmed), that sharp corner is going to get unsharp in the future as the pressing wears out, and the corner comes apart.

(5) Trimming. I'm assuming everyone agrees that trimming is alteration and not conservation. Saying that, it's generally allowed and accepted in hand cut cards or strip cards, where the card can still receive a number grade after this trimming.


Anyway, I'm sure I'm missing some scenarios but just my initial thoughts on this topic.

Why would this card still be up? PWCC/Betsy/Brent (Same thing) were told about this card, and likely others days ago yet it is still up and open? From what I read, going forward, cards from known dr's will no longer be submitted but why would they continue to auction this card even if it was submitted before PWCC's new "Tenets"?
Is Brent hoping the new buyer isn't aware of what is currently going on and therefore is taking the chance that he may never hear from the guy/girl ever again or is he going to tell the person, if they question it, that it has been "conserved"?

I don't know about anyone else, but in light of what has currently been exposed, and the fact this card has been flagged and PWCC has been notified, don't you think, if you were a "reputable" and "trusted" selling entity/company that cares about it's customers and the hobby, that you'd take the card down?

Forgot about that one! :D

I just read on BO that PSA has slightly different sized slabs that accomodate slightly smaller sizes?

I don't know, but if I had graded some/numerous types of cards then came across one that was a little smaller/shorter that moved around in the "Normal/Approved" slab that I've always used, I think I'd have another look at it to see what is going on first before placing it in this slightly smaller/internal sized slab, especially if this card appeared to good to be true for it's age. :rolleyes:

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1482

Mercy.

Yowzers! Makes you wonder what superdan does for a living. Or more like what he should be doing. Forensics maybe?

PSA needs to be held accountable. There must be 20 (or more) still uncovered examples for every one that has been detected. Most will never be uncovered.

If GAI went away, then PSA certainly should. This scandal is more problematic, as there are only two potential reasons for PSA's "mistakes"... Ineptitude or doing "favors".

And neither one merits consumer trust (which is the entire reason for PSA's existence).

HowIronic...I feel betrayed!!!!!

People said the same of the big financial institutions after the crash of 2008. How did that work out? I think on a far smaller scale of course, "too big to fail" might be an apt analogy.

Alteration, conservation, doctoring or whatever you want to call it, at what point does it become illegal? It's not against the law to doctor a card. As unethical as it is, the cards belong to the owners and the owners are free to do with them whatever they choose - soak it in twenty different chemicals, trim it, draw a moustache on it or whatever. If it were illegal, Dick Towelle and others would already be out of business a long time ago.

So, at what point does it become illegal? Sending it to PSA for grading? Selling it without disclosing the work that was done? In other words, if a prosecutor was trying this case, what kind of charges would he pursue? What party would he bring the charges - the doctor, PSA, the consignor? Just curious and hoping some of the legal eagles could shed some light on what we hope is to come.

2nd time you've mentioned him. The one person who pubically writes what he does to cards for others. Not sure if he submits, and doubtful he auctions for others. Seems like you have an axe to grind.

There might be other offenses involved, but certainly wire fraud and (if a catalog was involved) mail fraud. I would presume a prosecutor would charge anyone he or she thought could be convicted for "devising" or knowingly participating in the "scheme or artifice to defraud" which of course would depend on what evidence law enforcement gathered as to the various participants. So it's conjecture at this point, for me anyhow.

So the traitor got a trim... smh...

2nd time? Please show me the first time.

Sorry, did you just take the name from Goudey77s post? Maybe it was him. I know he was mentioned earlier.

I think Chuck and I had a brief exchange about him.

I can't believe that someone would actually pay 3k for a Look n See card of Benedict Arnold. Why?

Why would Topps make a card of Benedict Arnold?

You know the answer to that Barry.

It betrays a certain callousness, eh?

Because these people would buy a loose turd, if it were properly slabbed and assigned an ultra-high numeric grade. This type of collector needs the validation of a 3rd party, and has little ability to think for themselves. And conveniently enough, there's an easy way to turn a profit at their expense.

It's the current-day example of "The Emperor's Clothes". Hopefully with time, that will change.

More than likely it's a registry-driven purchase, I would think.

I am not an elite consignor as far as I'm aware. I had a card receive a certified high end designation under the old system that I never altered and showed no obvious signs of alteration or conservation.

Agreed, and think about this for a moment. The card was graded an 8 and someone paid fifty bucks for it. No problem there.

Then a card doctor ruins it by slicing off the left border, PSA misses it entirely, if anything it looks worse after defacement, and now the value increases sixty-fold. Does everyone recognize how effing ridiculous this is?

Nope.:eek::D:rolleyes:

Welcome to the Registry, son.

Yeah, you're absolutely right...

"Emperor's Clothes" was too mild. "Mindless Sheep" is more in-line with that insane valuation.

Whether it's the Registry, competitive greed, or just plain stupidity, PT Barnum would be beaming!

I knew you were going to say that. I know it's the registry, but it's still dumb. Fact is, the card looks really ugly and if I were grading the truncated version I would never give it a 9. What a crock.

A lot of people (especially the old timers) say that grading has hurt the hobby. As much as I hate grading, I disagree with that. But I do think the Registry has hurt the hobby.

It's ... wait for it .... pretty obviously short. You don't really need to measure it I don't think, the unconscious mind rejects it automatically, the Malcolm Gladwell "Blink" thing.

Uh, because someone in 2019 would pay 3k?:D

Mercy, again.
A few more of these and I'm joining David James in the conspiracy camp lol.


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1539

Do you think there will be a lot more to follow, or are we nearing the end of the bunch?

I am pretty confident there will be another major opus on the modern side soon. I really have no idea on the vintage side. I suspect there is lots more for these guys to look at as they haven't been at it that long and there's a ton of cards, but we'll see.

There’s more coming. The work being done on Blowout is really extraordinary but it’s being done by just a few people. I understand that more are getting involved though, including some former Net 54 members! I think Brent will have an interesting National if he decides to attend.

How could he not attend?

Jeff, I know you do criminal defense, but any chance of putting together a class action (or know anyone who could/would)? It seems to me that the odds of a formal criminal investigation is fairly low. But some retribution should occur here. Clearly countless people have been harmed civilly, and a torts lawyer could find many torts/causes of action here. With a lower burden of proof and a potentially more-damning result (hit them all in the wallet), it seems to me a that a class action/civil suit could be very effective, and could kick-start a criminal investigation too.

For me, its just getting to the point where I am convinced there is a very substantial chance that bad stuff happened here and people have been harmed, and there should be some investigation (and penalty) either by the law or courts. The courts -- through civil suit - seems the quickest and most effective means.

Ryan Hotchkiss

I can not imagine him not attending. That being said, it certainly is a possibility. I think, as has been stated, that the average collector still likely does not know about all of this. And if they don’t know, then they don’t care, and we will see lines to consign at the PWCC series of tables.

There are a couple of questions that I don't think have been answered (and they may not be without subpoenas or warrants)-

-what percentage of submission by the 'doctors' are getting through? Given the profit margins, I would imagine there is an acceptable level of loss (cards rejected by PSA). The answer would, to me, be the distinction between buffoonery/incompetence and outright collusion.
-are these cards being reviewed by the same grader(s) and supervisors? Again, the difference between incompetence and collusion, either with or without the knowledge of corporate officials.
-how were these cards submitted? In person/mail? And what kind of follow-up communication took place about those submissions?

Just some thoughts

Mercy.
https://www.facebook.com/pristinecards/

I don't have an account but here is one of the comments reproduced on Blowout.

Pristine Card Cleaners
We get higher grades on cards all the time. The ONE thing we can not control is centering so 9 or 8.5 centered cards are tough. We have been able to get a gem on 9 centered cards because the surface, edges and corners have to be on point. The vintage cards are tougher because of the paper they used then and the overall age of the card. Can we improve them....yes but it is not taking a 1920 tobacco card from a 2 to a 6. The newer cards are usually littered with printing issues to the edges, surface and sometimes corners. These cards SHOULD be pristine but through the manufacturing process they are not. That's why you see photos of those because it is the largest portion of the speculator market and grades really impact the value of the cards.

Who has been harmed, what are the damages, and perhaps most importantly, how would you identify them? And who do you propose to sue?

First, I’d disagree with you strongly on the chances of a criminal investigation. Strongly.

Next, Ive sued Mastro and Doug and they folded in a matter of days. With Brent, he’d be forced in litigation to turn over his emails, records, etc. and I can’t imagine he’s that crazy, although who knows. Peter does class actions and presuming we could slow down his posting output, and I’d happily help him on such a case. The more I think about it the more I’d be interested in such a case.

Pretty sure we can get there.

His emails, texts, etc. might be ... uh ... interesting.

Maybe, I was just looking to see what Ryan had in mind, is it PWCC, TPGs, Gary, etc.

I've read in multiple threads on more than one forum that Brent sent cards to PSA on behalf of Gary Moser. Is this true or is it conspiracy stuff? I'm hoping the latter. If true then that's the strongest piece of evidence that Brent/PWCC is complicit in the fraud. I remember reading about how Joe Orlando quit collecting when he took his position at PSA. That should be the same for Brent. It's harsh, but someone in that big of a position should not be a collector or subbing anything to any grading company.