I believe this eloquently spoke to this.

Chris, I believe has had the trust of many people on here. He has done a lot of great things. I think that is why this is very frustrating for people including myself.
However, Credibility is not a forever stamp.
I am sure he has his reasons for not adding to his thread for days. If it is simply an opinion, that is fine.. just state that. But to say it is absolute, there should be some proof. This is my opinion.

Two different camps. There are probably a few who think certain people's opinions are infallible, but I haven't seen them questioning Chris or Richard's credibility in this thread.

David and Chris have a dispute, but if you ignore that, the main thrust of this thread is 'evidence', not credibility.

Chris and Richard have masterfully painted themselves into a corner.
Either they are in possession of a magic "tell" (giving away the work of the mysterious "Michigan, forger") which they steadfastly refuse to share with hobby professionals, or, they got nothin'.

Either way, someone's full of it.

I hope the ticket sells for 10k+ and the buyer and seller are both happy with the transaction. The overall consensus, by a vast majority, is the autograph and ticket are authentic. I would believe that over any super secret bs being shoveled on here.

Claiming to have evidence, but refusing to share it with anyone, in order to a) help clean up the hobby, or b) simply show that you're not full of sh*t, goes directly to a person's credibility, Scott.

Agreed, but I think the OP was referring to the credibility of Chris' opinion on whether or not a signature is authentic.

...but thinking ahead, if Chris at some point presents evidence that the ticket and/or provenance or fraudulent, then we would have to deal with the authenticity of the signature. Certainly someone could have forged a Ruth signature on a good ticket, but if the ticket is bad, then the signature is bad.

Which is why the 'tell' is irrelevant at this point.

If the OP is me, that is not the case :) I value Chris' opinion as well as many other's on this board.

At some point? The auction ends tonight!

Isn't it possible that Ruth could have signed a ticket and then someone wante dto make it extra special and make it his 700th? I know a stretch but possible right? That is, unless the entire ticket is a forgery.

I don't remember who it was. This is one of those threads where you don't want to have to go back and look for anything :p - it must be a good read, though, or we wouldn't have so many people popping in and stating that they just got through reading the entire thing.

I've enjoyed it so much that I made a new pot of coffee before sitting down to read the last few pages :) Of course, that could still be the afterglow of watching the Astros dismantle the Mariners after all the trash-talk in the Seattle newspaper.

Scott - I have respected your posts throughout Net54 but an Astros fan?
Wow,,, I thought it was bad for me being a Mets fan,,, but the Astros? :D:D.
I will have to look at your posts in a whole new light now :D.
You should try to find a major league team to root for.

Like the Tribe!! The didn't lose to the yankees last night, it's like a victory! (And if it rains again today, chalk up another non-loss in the, uh, well, some column!)

Ken

I originally joined this forum because of my interest in vintage photos. After a couple of years viewing numerous threads I was very pleased with the amount of new information regarding this topic (and others) that were covered. In particular I have valued very much the free exchange of ideas, different views and new perspectives that have been shared with friends like Jimmy and Ben via PMs. I have enjoyed these interactions very much and have learned a lot!

I guess I was spoiled by the positive and sharing environment that existed with the vintage photo community (and many others on this forum), because many of the autograph threads that I have read, and this one in particular, pale in comparison from a sharing/learning experience point of view.

Yes, I have learned a lot about Mantle autos (mostly from a few kind individuals who were willing to PM some very helpful criteria to look for) but for some reason many of the auto threads seem primarily to involve agendas, drama, egos and personal attacks. I realize that is often the price of admission and I'm fine with that, I just wish more of the "experts" would try to help novices like myself by sharing actual facts/evidence when it comes to a determination of authenticity. Otherwise, I don't see the point.

Maybe they should do like they do in hockey, if it is tied after regulation time you don't lose (you are going to get at least 1 point), if baseball is tied after 9 innings they can play sudden death for 1 inning. And then, if still tied, have a HR hitting contest to decide the winner :D
Just kidding - I think that part of hockey is foolish. The shootout should be like the DH,,, get rid of it now.

That was cruel.

Yesterday I was wearing my Astros garb prior to the game, and one of our building janitors looked at me in surprise, and asked in broken English: "Are you REALLY an Astros fan?!?"

I guess being an Astros or Mets fan could explain some things - maybe having a sort of weird 'Napoleon complex' due to shortness of team?

Does the signature on the ticket look like the ones that were almost undeniably signed by Ruth in 1934? (Seen in post #208)

Craig -

In case you haven't figured it out by now, autograph collectors are, to put it kindly, a little "different" than most collectors. I'll certainly put myself in this category.

Honestly I don't know why, but it is true. We take on projects we can never complete - like complete runs of signed trading cards, or everyone whoever played for a team or sport, knowing full well that there are no known examples of some autographs and such projects will never be completed. We argue over authenticity and who signs/who doesn't.

It was a very tight-knit community once, maybe back in the 1980s and before, we were shunned by the card collectors, despised by the memorabilia collectors but we got our kicks hanging out all day at ballparks and hotels and trading envelopes full of duplicates through the mail to people we never met. Yeah, we bought and sold too, ten cents a pop for commons and a Maris might run you $3.00.

I think there is also a bit of bitterness in us hard-core graphers. We all hate, absolutely hate the passing off of forgeries. For me, it was attending and selling at shows in the early 1990s, when guys I'd never seen at the ballparks or hotels suddenly had binders full of all the big names - Mantle, Dimaggio, Williams, Jordan, and bit nice looking sharpie signed pieces. Every card shop had signed stuff with COAs (from now discredited TPAs).

I could tell they were bad, but people kept buying them because they looked nice. At the time I didn't offer COA's and didn't think I needed to since I got nearly everything in person or from someone else who did.

Then the card shops started sending armies of kids out to the hotels and ballparks and ruined it for everyone.

And now, you have players charging upwards of $100 a signature and getting it.

I was priced out of the hobby long ago, I limit my collecting to the few (and new) A's, Seals and Sharks.

But I remember the older guys in the hobby who were always nice to me - Dick Dobbins, Stan Marks, Will Davis, Steve Brunner, Bill Zekus, Mike Wheat, Bill Corcoran, Ron Gordon, Doug McWilliams and Hall of Famer Nick Peters just to name a few...and I always feel a responsibility to follow their example and help out when I can.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is don't let the drama put you off, hard as that may be. Some of this stuff is like a soap opera, you hate yourself for watching/reading, but you want to see how it turns out.

Maybe some of us old-timers who are a little too quiet here should post about some of our experiences. I'm a little reluctant as Jim Stinson's stories and writing ability put mine to shame, but I'll have a go at it, assuming anyone want to hear about the "good old days".

I think more people than you think would love to hear about the old days, if you care to share. I enjoy hearing of collecting autos, even though I don't collect them, and would certainly enjoy any stories shared.

I found the tell!!!

Thank you very much!!! If the sincerity and tone that is so obvious in your post were adopted by other auto threads it would be a welcome addition. Perhaps it is the nature of the beast (I don't really collect autos, except for a few Mantles from years ago), but I also hate forgers in any segment of the hobby and I am just trying to learn as much as I can in this new(for me) area of collecting.

Let me join with Leon and say that I also would love to hear more about the "good old days".

Thanks again.

Craig

Thank you to Craig and Moosedog for ending this thread on a high note. :)

Is the tell that it looks completely authentic?:)

+1

Moosedog, I would love to hear your stories, and I am sure a lot of the other collectors my age would feel the same.

i am not saying.

Bid is at 12000

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=55190

Talk about what publicly can do for you.

I think that...
 

.

Who the Michigan forger is...

And the final bid was.......12,000.00

I'm happy for the consignor.

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=55190

I didn't win it. Chris scared me from bidding :D

(just kidding - nobody sue me, please)

Babe Ruth 700th HR ticket
 

Congrats to consigner rscheck on the final realized price for the Babe Ruth 700th HR ticket stub!

$12K is a great outcome for you. :)

Thanks to you and H & S's Josh Wulkan for coming on the board to share your side of the story.

Thanks all. I do have to say it was an "interesting" experience. For those of you that were supportitive thanks.

the circus is over. 12 grand, i guess the original poster didnt have the hobby resume for vintage baseball to sway anyone, along with the fact he didnt present any facts.

i still don't know if the autograph is good, but i have to see proof either way. he certainly threw spence at jsa and root at sgc under the bus and then disappeared.

You root for the Astros, why would anyone want to inflict more misery on you by suing you :D.
Ouch, I know that one hurt :D.:)

"The truth is out there"...somewhere.

Congrats to the consignor.

haha, yes

Ok, the item sold, the consignor and H and S realized nice dollars, and I'd say the winning bidder will love his item.

Do you guys need to continue the pot shots and childish posts and pictures? Just am wondering.

No offense, but how is this any different from David Atkatz getting pot shots thrown at him a year and a half later?

Is there a chance Chris was talking this smack and turns out he was the winning bidder?

It could be my new auction strategy.

chris started the thread and couldnt close the deal. he tried to set everyone up so he could knock everything down and look like the hobby hero. he didnt pull it off so if he looks like something less than prince charming it's his own fault. This is thread number two he has done this and for what reason?

Like I said before, I didn't know if the ruth was good or bad, but he didn't provide any proof it was bad. It was all a waste, and no one else is to blame.

Lesson - don't start a thread you can't or aren't willing to back up.

Interesting comment posted by Roste on the HaulsOfShame website about the Babe Ruth signed 700th Homerun ticket.

Attachment 96588

The deal isn't done by a long shot.

I've been on the sidelines reading the name-calling and saving the screenshots for the day when I will address particular comments posted by a few members of Net54.

How long do we have to wait?

Heeeee's baaaaack!

So I guess we're all waiting for the second second coming!

so what? having doubts about it and saying you know why its fake are two different things. i never said i had proof, you did, but you didnt close the deal. there is such thing as an authentication company giving out a "no opinion" as well. of course you know that but it doesn't make for good drama.

i never said it was real or fake. i didnt start the thread, you did. we have been waiting a long time. if you didnt have proof, why did you start the thread? obviously the proof didnt sway, jsa, sgc, or huggins and scott. "take my word for it" isn't proof.

Couldn't agree more.

[QUOTE=thetruthisoutthere;1120254]The deal isn't done by a long shot.

Contra Mr. Williams contra. The deal is done, and the check is cashed. To quote someone MUCH smarter than me, "you are a strange sad little man". You sit in your moms basement with your pasty white skin and you throw out comments about things you know nothing about (and yes Mr Williams, you knew NOTHING about this particular ticket). I am not sorry I am one of 9,833,360 people (go ahead look it up) who live in Michigan, one of whom would appear to be some forger you seem to know a great deal about (I am not him). I am not sorry, through my dad, I was fortunate enough to meet a woman that was kind. I realize in the world you live in these two completely unrelated events could never take place. The reality is the story I told is true. There are still people out there that believe in honor and integrity and if I thought for a moment this ticket/autograph wasn't real I would have pulled it from the auction myself. You see mr Williams not everyone is out there just to make a nickel (or in this case 214,000 of them). You offered up no proof, or evidence about anything you ELUDED to. Heritage never had the ticket in their possession prior to its sale, this other grading company that you mentioned never had the ticket in their possession to grade it before it went to H&S. These are facts.indisputable, hand on the Bible in court, facts. I offered to speak to you , you left ONE message and didn't have the decency to leave your phone number. I came on the forum and answered ALL questions that were asked and yet you continue to sit in your moms basement and pass judgement on me, a man you have never met. You also declined to pass along "information" that you supposedly had. If that's the kind of hobby you are involved in I will stick to running where people say good morning when they see each other and offer advise (okay sometimes its the wrong advise but their heart is in the right place).

Having said all of that I now feel better.

Thank you,

[QUOTE=rscheck;1123692]Hopefully this is over now. Cloak and dagger stuff is getting old.

its been a couple more weeks, is this day ever going to roll around?

I will be posting as soon as things are back to normal here.

Richard, Shelly, Leon and Danny are already aware that my girlfriend's twenty-eight-year-old son passed away on Thursday night. There are no words to describe the loss.

Chris, truly sorry for the loss. You are right, no words can describe that feeling.

While I think this whole debacle could have been handled better I will vouch for Chris sending me a message a few days ago concerning the death in the family. A very young person passing away is tragic. Condolences to Chris, family and friends.

Sorry to hear that Chris.

My sympathies, Chris. Take care of your family. We can bicker about the much-less-important stuff later.

Ken

Chris,
Very sorry to hear....family trumps an autograph discussion any day.
Priorities people...

Andrew

My condolences Chris. I couldn't imagine what you are going through.

Prayers out to you and your girlfriend, Christopher, times like these remind everyone about the bigger picture.

prayers to you and your loved ones chris...

Condolences Chris...very sorry for your loss...this stuff is small potatoes compared to real life.

My sympathies also, Chris.

Chris, my sincere condolences to you and your GF on this horrible thing. Means so much more than whether an autograph is real or not...God Bless.

I don't really collect autographs, although I have a few that were signed at shows. So, I know they are authenticate. But these autograph fights are kinda crazy. It seems we have at least 4-5 experts on the board and they pretty much disagree on most autographs. I don't really know the complete name, but THETRUTHISOUTHERE or whatever the name is seems to be the expert of all experts according to his posts. So, he should be very wealthy authenticating autographs throughout the hobby. So, is he the guy to get for authentIcating my autographs? i am not being a smart ass, just want to know. I do have a couple of autographs that I thought about sending to PSA, but decided not to. A large print signed by Ali and Spinks in the 1980's. And a baseball signed by Tiger Woods in 1996. Both signed in person. But I was worried that they would come back not real. Then What? I did sell some autographs to someone on the board and I was satisfied with the results. He is one of the 4-5 experts on the board. The autographs were items I bought in the 1980's of early 1930's ballplayers. .


Joe

Joe

psa will either say good or bad, so its a 50 percent chance. we have seen them give the thumbs up to the bad before, and the thumbs down to the good before, so send them money if you have money to spare, or keep your money. if you know it's good, that is good enough.

Chris(thetruthisouthere) is the person we are referring to that had a recent death in the family.

I wanted to sincerely "Thank you" for your expressions of condolences.

My girlfriend's son leaves behind a three-year old daughter which is even more heart-breaking. My girlfriend's family, friends and myself are there for her and her granddaughter.

I cannot begin to imagine the pain of losing a son or daughter. I lost my mom twenty years ago and I still haven't gotten over it.

Again, I want to "Thank" those of you who posted messages of condolence. It really is very much appreciated.

Please take care of that little girl. As a teacher, I can assure you she needs a father figure in her life. Especially one who demonstrates that we all need to stand up and do the right thing every chance we get.

Ken

+1. So very true.

Chris,

As a father of a 10 year old boy, please do what is possible to comfort this young girl. She may not fully understand what is going on now, but when she grows up, she WILL remember the times you have spent with her and consoled her. Thanks for your leadership here. The "foolishness" that goes on here (I say that light-heatedly) pales in comparison to real life situations.

Greg

Some additional info on a "tell" and the ticket.

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=19877#more-19877

so why is it easy for a guy to show some details about a babe ruth sig but so impossible for others? that wasn't so hard.

Hey Chris, I'm so saddened for your loss, loss is never easy. Especially for someone who has so much of their life left to live. I recently had a loss of an old high school friend a week ago, and I'm 26 and it's hard to fathom, and you ask yourself why.

I appreciate all you do here, and I help you and your gf's family find happiness and stay strong with your faith.

God Bless

Travis,

Perhaps I'm jumping the gun here and reading too much into this, but maybe Chris and Nash have been discussing the "Babe Ruth" signed 700th HR ticket.
It dawned on me that Chris might not have revealed the "tells" because of a pre-existing promise to Nash since he had planned on writing about it in his HOS.

Food for thought...

You are going to get Chris banned from Heritage if they think he is working with Nash :D.
Chris and Nash do not discuss anything.

Oh well, never mind then. Carry on... :)

The other Ruth signature that Chris presented, allegedly by the "Michigan forger," shows none of Nash's three "tells." They could not be what Chris had in mind.

in another recent HoS column, Nash has presented two "tells" for mid-thirties, rushed, "ballpark" Gehrig signatures. It is a nice piece of work. But I have shown a genuine, correct-period Gehrig which exhibits one of the two. Tells are a guide--they are not ironclad.

Again, to his credit, Nash has presented an hypothesis, which can be tested. In this case I believe he is wrong.

it does not appear to me that the "a" in the ticket signature is "written backwards."

Ruth always doublebacked on the final stroke of the "h." This slight return stroke usually is horizontal, and goes over the left-to-right stroke. Usually, but not always. Nash's "arrowhead formation" appears occasionally in genuine Ruth signatures.

That leaves the short t-cross-stroke. Enough to disqualify the signature? I don't think so.

Thank you, Brent. Very much appreciated.

I also want to "Thank" those who set private messages of condolence and another "Thank you" to those Net54 members who publicly expressed their sympathy. Thank you.

This is really killing me.

Not picking on you David, and I know you hate talking about this ball, but since you and I are in total disagreement as to its authenticity, it's a good example to discuss. In your opinion, does this Ruth signature demonstrate any of Nash's 3 tells?

Thank you, Brent. I appreciate it.

I again wanted to thank those who posted both public messages of condolence and private messages of condolence.