I totally get it as well. Kind of a shame because he really has been great in the regular season. I think if he had just been normal good but not great (say like Verlander 17-12 3.58) it would not be held against him that much.

Made worse IMO by the fact that Roberts never knew when to pull him.

I agree 100%.

It is amazing to me that Pete Rose has the 3 most number of votes. He was a versatile fielder, but not a particularly good one. And he was a one-dimensional hitter. Let's not forget that in addition to betting on baseball, he was also corking his bat at the end of his career, as he tried to pass Cobb on the all-time hits list.

I think there's an easy explanation for Rose's stature -- he broke one of baseball's most sacred records that was long considered untouchable.

He did break the record but if you're going to pick a player in the same vein as Rose, I think Wade Boggs was infinitely better.

I was not a fan. Purely anecdotal, but it seemed he never got a hit in a meaningful situation. Bases empty up or down five runs, he was awesome lol.

Are you talking about Arod? Because that is what I remember about him. I believe Boggs batted around .360 with runners in scoring position.

Yes, his overtaking Cobb (while corking his bat) is the explanation. It is not a good one.

He has an OPS of .806 or higher in every "clutch" category on baseball reference.

I just don't see a very good player in Pete Rose's stats. He's essentially an Ichiro clone. Their numbers from ages 27 to 45 are strikingly similar. Only 6 people chose Ichiro though and in terms of Ichiro's career, only he and Pete Rose would have accumulated 3,000 hits from age 27 on.

I guess the record explains the disparity, but Ichiro was essentially the same player.

Not an easy stat to find, but finally found it for individual players on baseball-reference.com. Boggs hit .324 with RISP. ARod was .292.

I haven't been able to find a career leaderboard anywhere.

Agreed. Similarly, Koufax should be elevated due to his fantastic postseason stats: 7 World Series starts, 4 complete games, 2 shutouts, 0.95 ERA, .825 WHIP.

I dunno, I think increasing the size of the strike zone might help with reducing walks :)

I appreciate the anecdotes from superstars talking about how hard Koufax was to hit. But Aaron is just being modest, what with his career .362 average and 1.077 OPS against Sandy.

Anecdotes are great but the numbers are the numbers.

double post

Are you saying you don't think either Rose or Ichiro were at least very good players? That's hard to agree with.

Jay, a player's batting average with runners in scoring position is definitely an interesting stat. The top 2 best seasons for a player were:

1. Freddie Lindstrom, Giants, 1930 --- .480 (59 for 123)

2. George Brett, Royals, 1980 --- .469

Jay, check RETROSHEET, which is either part of SABR or Baseball-Reference.com Hope this helps, friend. --- Brian Powell

No, I think they were great at one thing, I'm just not sure that one thing has enough value to elevate them to greatest living player.

It's impossible to ignore a player like Ichiro's peak, but when you look at his entire career and compare his final stats to other HOFers, I do think you're looking at a low-tier HOFer and I would say the same is true of Rose.

Ichiro: 757 career OPS with an OPS+ of 107
Rose: 784 OPS with an OPS+ of 118

All that to say I'm a big Ichiro fan and I loved watching him play. I just don't think he has a case for greatest living player and I don't think there's all that much separating him from Rose, so I have a hard time seeing Rose in the conversation. I think Wade Boggs was better than both of them and is probably the greatest living hitter from a batting title / average perspective. I think it was always Gwynn then Boggs as long as Gwynn was still alive.

Politics aside Barry Bonds for me. Sandy for pitchers
.

I swear I never saw him get a clutch hit and I saw a lot of him. Memory may be distorted by my dislike of his attitude and obsession with his own stats.

OK, I understand what you're saying. It was just the way your previous post was worded that I was confused by.

I think you also have to include Rod Carew in the conversation when you're talking about batting title and average for greatest living hitter. I agree that I wouldn't include him, Rose, Boggs or Ichiro as my pick for greatest living player, though.

Brain, I don't see anything on RetroSheet either about all time leaders in RISP.

My fault. In my head I was discussing them amongst the greatest living players and high-tier HOFers when I said "not very good". They were elite compared to everyone else.

People said the same thing in Philly about Bobby Abreu, but somehow he hit .311 in his career with RISP so some of that had to happen with the Phillies.

I agree that Rose and Ichiro were similar offensively. I do give the edge to Rose because he led the League in doubles 5x and walked more.

But I think Ichiro was more well-balanced player. He stole more than twice as many bases and was a better fielder. Ichiro won 10 Gold Gloves. Rose won just 2 Gold Gloves.

I’m not a big Pete Rose fan but he was great .
4256 hits is a big number , He hit .321 in 301 postseason at bats,
Played in six World Series and won three of them ,
MVP in ‘75 series -
was part of the big red machine and he had some kind of hitting streak

All true, and no question he was one of the greatest ever. But I don’t see how someone can think he is the best living player.

It’s hard to avoid Rose’s record when talking about him and it’s hard to exclude Cobb from thought by extension. Cobb was just so much better than Rose that it’s hard to see them always paired up.

I would even suggest that it’s because Rose broke Cobb’s record and Cobb’s name carries the weight it deserves to that Rose even enters the conversation. But Cobb was a mile ahead of Rose in every other way. If the hit record was held by someone other than Cobb I think Rose loses his shine. Which is to say I don’t think it’s the hit king status that vaults Rose, but the fact that it was Cobb that he topped.

Thanks for finding that. I had just rewatched Boggs 3000th hit game a few days ago and would have sworn I seen that stat when he was up to bat. I just rewatched his at bats and Wade hit .361 lifetime with the bases loaded according to his second at bat stats they displayed.

Here's how to find it for individual players on baseball-reference.com. After going to a player's page, scroll toward the bottom where it lists More Pages. Under Batting Splits, you can choose Career or an individual season. On the next page, open the listing for Show Bases Occupied.

Barry Bonds juicing himself to the gills with PEDS is not bad politics---it's called cheating. It's called desecrating the integrity of the game's record book. Keep the bum out of the Baseball Hall of Fame. Always keep him in the elite hall of shame.

Yes, Barry had a definite HOF career going, just like Joe Jackson. Jackson's misdeeds came in a controversial World Series; how much Joe threw his part of the Series is still argued about back and forth. Bonds's misdeeds came after McGwire and Sosa wowed everybody in 1998, and Barry decided he was going to get some of that stuff, and make everybody forget the former record-holders. What a lousy mess. Furthermore, the juicers influenced young players to use PEDS. I've read of some tragic stories.... --- Brian Powell

Jackson was banned for participating to some degree in throwing a World Series - he was great, but he's out of the discussion. Great stats, all for nothing.

Rose was banned for gambling. He knew clearly what he was doing, and was banned. Great stats, all for nothing.

Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, et al, all blatantly thumbed their collective noses at the no PEDs rules. They knew what they were doing. They aren't banned, but they aren't going into the HoF anytime soon. Great stats, meaningless, all for nothing. Very wealthy, but that's as far as it goes.

Collectors go all gaga over certain cards, and spout meaningless, subjective or otherwise arguments about their stats and greatness. In the end, it means absolutely nothing.

Succinctly well-said, James Ingram. -- Brian Powell

Did it decrease all pitchers' walks by the amount that Koufax's decreased? I'm not going to do the math and am just going to bet you $1 that it didn't.

As for the anecdotes, that's why I said "this side of Aaron" that means - not including Aaron.

Me too, except I rate them Ruth-Bonds-Mays-Aaron. Maybe I am biased from having this card since 1973:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...0HR%20LDRS.jpg

Or I just like every excuse I can get to show a childhood obsession card.

As for pitchers, I go with either Clemens or Johnson.

I feel like I’m in the twilight zone when I see Bonds name mentioned with Ruth-Mays-Aaron. Do people really not understand that Bonds cheated and his numbers are inflated due to PED use? UGH!

Yes but many people go out of their way to shrug it off.

Man that’s a good card

A reading of the posts will show that everyone appears to be well aware that Bonds used steroids from 1999 or 2000 through sometime between 2003 and 2007. It is not complete ignorance the issue even exists that is the debate.

The Bonds vote proves the value of an anonymous ballot. Looks to me that a lot more people are voting for Bonds than are willing to risk the opprobrium of others for admitting that they voted for Bonds. I admit it, I voted for him. He was a surefire first-ballot HOFer with three MVPs before the PEDs and the greatest force ever seen while juicing. I can't ignore what he did on the field regardless of what I think of him. I won't support him for the HOF; his punishment for doping is that the only way he gets in is with a ticket. I have a similar view about Joe Jackson. No way can I ignore his accomplishments on the field when discussing great players despite my belief that he knowingly took money to throw the World Series and deserves to be banned forever. It is possible to hold a mixed view. I loved Pete Rose as a player; cruddy human being.

I was just about to compliment you on the use of "contumely" but you changed it lol.

I thought "opprobrium" was more apropos. Either would have been bitchen. :)

I appreciate your explanation and reasoning. In reference to the HOF, I have always said that all PED users from that era should be in the HOF. My reasoning is, once they let one in, all should be in. Pudge Rodriguez and others have been voted in, so for me, all get in. Don’t need a positive test or a smoking needle to know if someone used. My only issue with Bonds is that his use took two HR records away from deserving players who didn’t use.

Josh Gibson broke Cobb's lifetime ML batting average and he didn't need to do anything except have an outstanding career.

Well, that, an incomplete sample of 602 games, and a political movement almost every large corporate body in America virtue signaled for over 70 years after his death.

Orwellian.

Ichiro hit .445 as a rookie with RISP, including .546 with the bases loaded.

Picked Bonds as well.....but surprised that AROD only has 2 votes....if picking a player for a team.....all other things aside....and you can grab a good SS that hits almost 700HR.....sign me up!

Right? The number of people who think not only that they like Jeter more but who sincerely believe he was a better baseball player than A-Rod still surprises me.

Officially, he is. Because he didn't illegally juice. Why do you guys pretend that it never happened?

Alex Rodriguez, along with Mookie Betts and Steve Carlton, are currently the only players in the poll to have 0 votes.

Brian