Wow. I didn't know what I was getting myself into by looking into these forums... In any case, I'd say just be careful what you are reading out there. Who the hell knows what is actually true or false.

I would suggest that he is probably delusional, but whatever. You do what you think you need to do I suppose.

Is he asking his client which Cobbs might be altered, so as not to buy those?

Now he’s buying all Cobbs because with 12B he doesn’t mind if he gets beaten on a few.

Peter, you’re an attorney and must have much more of an ability than someone like I do to look through the forest and see the bigger picture. While we all want to see Brent rot in hell, if we take a step back whether we are buying $20 cards, $200, $2000, $20,000, $200,000 or whatever, we want to feel confident we’re getting what we paid for. As a novice collector I relied on those slabs to guide me, foolishly thinking TPG’s were there to protect me and the investment (cringe) I was making. Obviously I was wrong.

Now I don’t know what Brent knows or doesn’t know. Does he have something on TPG’s or are they just incompetent? If they’re just incompetent are we just supposed to accept that or are there things that can happen to make them accountable for their actions? I know everyone believes this is going to be like every other time something like this has happened in the industry but I don’t believe it will be. It’s only been a couple of months and far more has happened than anyone could have imagined and yet it’s still met with plenty of ambivalence and scorn. It’s a tough crowd to please because we all want it both ways: the perpetrators to pay the maximum price and the problem (grading cards properly) to get improved. Only time will tell how it all will play out but I think if we can somehow look at it objectively, winning one of the battles has far more value than the other. Again, tough to do, but the bigger picture is far more important.

Steven I'll accept your premise that PSA is the bigger problem, or the TPGs as a whole. Especially after Orlando's statement today I could not be more disgusted with PSA. It was far worse than Sloan's. And of course I understand that in many cases the government will make a relatively soft deal with a cooperator to get at the more important criminal. I'm just not seeing how going easy on Brent helps the goal of going after PSA. But I'll reflect on it.

One footnote though -- it still takes card doctors and their enablers to bring these cards to market. So it's not like the biggest seller of doctored cards on the planet, and card uhh uhhh conservator himself, isn't still a huge problem.

Suppose, hypothetically, you have people deliberately committing fraud and making huge amounts of money by purposely altering cards and then selling them (at inflated prices) into the mainstream of the hobby, most to never be identified as altered, and on the other hand, you have a few TPG who miss some alterations now and then, which battle is more important to win? Nailing the people who are knowingly initiating this whole mess by committing fraud, or the TPGs who try their best, but sometimes let bad cards through?

It would be nice if the TPG were perfect, but at least they are honestly trying. There is nothing honest about those who are altering and selling cards for fun and profit. Beating the criminals is the battle to win.

Unfortunately I think without regulation there will always be scum like Brent and Moser gaming the system. I can almost assure you that down the road regulation will be there but it might be many years and often when the government gets involved it becomes be careful what you wish for.

For me I know I would love to hear what Brent and Moser have to say about TPG’s. While they are garden variety scammers, I think ultimately TPG’s are the far bigger problem. Why more venom isn’t going towards them and instead to Brent is actually a little head scratching? CLCT stock has actually gone up since this all began. Shows you how worried investors are about what’s happening.

Mark at this point along through this mess what makes you think PSA is obviously trying? Have you seen below one amongst many blatantly obvious altered cards...

Orlando doesn’t care what anyone thinks his opinion givers are just giving a opinion us suckers are the ones paying for it.

That’s the way I take it in reading his latest statement...please see Ruth 144 Below...you tell me ...this is one of many

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=14874068

I see how the card doctors make money by altering and then selling cards. Unless and until I see evidence of some sort of kickbacks being paid by card doctors/sellers to PSA personnel, I do not see how PSA, or any of the TPG companies, benefit by missing altered cards.

The point I’m making is they, PSA, doesn’t give a shit Mark !

They want you to accept it and get over or crack and resubmit so they make more money....

All the more accommodating to the bad actors doing crap to cards ....they’re not making it more difficulty they’re leaving the door wide open ....

They’re nothing but a irrelevant opining giving company that’s it...take Away their registry and they’re not taking as arrogantly

If I leave the door of my house wide open and somebody walks in and robs me, that makes me careless and the other guy a thief. Which is worse?

I’m not gonna argue with you it’s like talking to a brick wall.

I'm not a huge fan of TPG but when you put them next to outright criminals who are profiting hugely by creating this mess in the first place, it seems rather obvious which is the bigger problem.

Brick wall, indeed!

As has previously been stated multiple times, way too many people are more interested in the grade than in the card. If you are a predator, it is generally safe to rely on human nature. Sad to say, but true. LOOK at the fuc@@ng cards, not the grade on the slab. How about we start there? It will certainly at least slow things down, although I am the first to admit that it will not stop it. Baby steps. At this point, that's what we have.

“I like this place and willingly could waste my time in it.”

“I’m Curious George, no you’re Curious George.”

Yogi Bear doth protest too much, methinks.”

they benefit by maximizing profit through spending a very limited amount of time evaluating every card. it's a winning strategy over the short term and potentially the long term unless individuals or a system hold them accountable.

Completely agree...

PSA benefits tremendously by wrongly assigning numerical grades to altered cards. Without the huge increase in dollars realized for a single numerical bump, the Doctors would not be producing and submitting these forgeries in such massive numbers. They are rewarded with such a huge pot of gold at the end of the "TPG Rainbow", that their submissions just keep pouring in... thus benefitting PSA.

Erroneous grading and bumping is what motivates the card doctors to continue and enables them to thrive. It creates a corrupt revenue stream in the form of a "golden triangle"... A perfect equilateral, with Card Doctor, Auction House, and TPG representing the 3 points. Go ahead and throw in eBay, if you want to make the shape of corruption a square.

The only one not included in all of this money-making geometric fun is the poor shlub who gets burned by the slabbed card.

Joe O's lameass statement/response is basically calling people stupid for spending ridiculous amounts of money for their assessments resulting in uber high grade cards.

If you want to "NOT BE CHEATED"...basically dont trust PSA. Joe said it himself!

And blaming the people outing altered cards for spreading fear.

That was my initial perspective. I always knew TPGs missed a lot, but I attributed that mostly to the skill of the card doctors. I have suspected TPGs of preferential grading for a long time, but not being complicit in slabbing bad cards.

After what I've seen, and knowing that outed Moser-Huigens cards are just the tip of the iceberg, and seeing the nonsense that has come out of PSA in the form of Sloan's and Orlando's statements, my perspective has changed. PSA, in my opinion, is a huge part of the problem, and I no longer trust their good faith. I'm not letting the others off the hook, just that SGC has a small relative market share and I don't care about Beckett. Nothing would surprise me at this point.

I've said it before and will repeat: I don't think PSA really minds a proliferation of high grade cards in circulation. The set registry is their bread and butter, and you need a large population of high grade cards so that everybody can play. Perhaps it's in their best interest to turn a blind eye to all these altered cards. If high grade cards were genuinely hard to find, it would hurt the registry game.

Peter, after a lengthy debate awhile ago regarding the criminality of the actions of card doctors, I concluded you were correct, and you won me over to your way of looking at it.

I leave the door open to the possibility that as this plays out, I may also conclude that PSA is more culpable in this mess than I currently believe.

This is the process I like about these chat boards... they help my thinking evolve.

I have my popcorn; let the next act of this opera begin.

Exactly +1

+1 been saying for the past few months 100% agree Peter

As the pile of altered cards in slabs gets higher and higher, and I extrapolate to what the real pile must look like, and I see PSA's comments, I just have a harder and harder time buying the good faith theory that I know I was espousing myself earlier.

The problem lies with the masses who either don't know what's going on or don't care!

Big problem!! I’ve been trying to sound the alarm for months with little to nail avail, except the good amount of smart guys on this board.

I feel bad Because many honest people inherently want to trust/believe . They believe their cards are good in PSA holders.....they’re taken aback about It because it’s been beaten into them that cards in their holders bring
The most money. PSA is Number 1 most trusted.....oh bull S$$t. I hope the market corrects that way of thinking with the recent outings and media attention. I have my doubts....as you said many don’t get it or care.

The ones that don’t care are the people with millions vested in their slabbed cards altered and unaltered with number graded.
If PSA didn’t have the registry they wouldn’t be as blatantly arrogant.

Betsy, get thee to a nunnery!

This was great.

Lots of lawyers have said lots of things on facebook/social media etc prior to trials, yet you never hear anything about in any trials because its means zero...lets stop debating that issue.

I wonder if any ex employees of PSA the last few months have any info..

I would guess all PSA graders and former graders and other employees have NDAs. That said, I would imagine that if there has been anything untoward going on over the years, a grader blowing the whistle could be a major area of vulnerability. As I've said, at this point, nothing would surprise me.

Why would you not care about Beckett? There is likely more evidence they have someone inside giving preferential treatment than there is at PSA.

Just a selfish perspective I guess, I only have a few Beckett cards and doubt I would buy any more except cheap modern ones. It would not surprise me at all if they were the most tainted of all though in light of what I've read.

I want that website and his business SHUTDOWN and him kicked out of the hobby. I also would like him to face tax evasion charges. Your brother is not a tax attorney so he'll need someone else for that too. The hobby is and will be infected with 100's of thousands of tainted cards, IMHO.

Jeff ain't FIXIN nuttin PERIOD

My understanding is that unlike in the securities area where the government has specific authority to seek relief barring people from the securities industry or barring individuals who commit securities fraud from serving as officers of publicly traded companies, the government does not have similar authority in other lines of business. It would have to be part of a plea bargain, and seems unlikely here.

If he is in fact selling the promissory notes described on his website, and has not (as has been claimed) registered them with the SEC, he may also be involved in the unlawful sale of unregistered securities as they would appear to be above the regulatory threshold.

Wouldn't any revocation of his Auctioneer's License have to either be a condition of a plea or upon independent action by the Oregon AG/Dep't. Of State/other licensing agency?
Has anyone reached out to the State of Oregon on this?

I don't necessarily fault a TPG for innocently getting beat on some of the cards we have seen; the work is pretty good. I fault PSA 100% for not stepping up and telling everyone who has been victimized that PSA will stand by its work and its guarantee without reservation if the seller does not make restitution. Instead we get these asshat responses that alternate between disclaimers and fear-mongering. Oohhh, I am so scared to return to the old days of looking at cards myself instead of relying on a demonstrably unreliable service to look at them for me and give me an opinion it will not stand behind anyway.

If PSA was an umpire MLB would have kicked it to the curb for all these blown calls.

Yes, that too...

What a self-serving piece of sh*t statement. Their word is the word of God.

I agree except for the last line. I would introduce the work of Angel Hernandez as Exhibit "A" in rebuttal.

I haven't posted for 2 years
 

I haven't posted in 3 years ( until the other day ) . PWCC has drawn out all the sewer rats . PSA is not going to give a crap until the Feds come to the door . If they haven't already .

No response from Oregon, according to someone who reached out some time ago.

Does he do auctioneering beyond ebay? Nobody needs a license to auction items off on ebay.

A quick google search indicates you only need an auction license for certain types of items in Oregon. Liquor and livestock.

How dare you keep an open mind...

I don't know, but I imagine a court order (supboena, I imagine) outweighs an NDA. IS that correct?

Oregon only requires a license for certain types of auctions (livestock is one) I imagine Brent is not a licensed auctioneer.

EDIT: Dan beat me to it.

Not quite that black and white. If you are a registered business using ebay as an auction platform to sell consigned goods in PA you are supposed to have a license. I am sure some other states are similar, and I'm sure it gets ignored, a LOT.

Yep, when customers are slime, taking their money is the best possible comeback. Except maybe sending them to the shop up the street so they can be the competitions problem.