Yes it looks like they shilled each other's lots right and left. I welcome a response.

Yes, according to the document, Dave Forman (SGC owner) and his brother Steve Forman shilled each other's auctions on many occasions, including high grade SGC cards. The example below was consigned by Dave, shilled by Steve, and actually won by Steve... looks like he got stuck with it.

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...entoryid=70524

Here's one that was consigned by Steve, and shilled by Dave, and won by Greg Bussineau.

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...entoryid=74170

There are many, many other examples.


JEFF PR|ZNER

Who's the real hobby villian...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=113951

And here I was, utterly oblivious to the fact that SGC really stands for:

"Shill, Get Cash."

Thank God baseball cards are such happy and pure things, in and of themselves, that the enjoyment they bring trumps and outshines that odious list.

Seems to me that SGC should pack it up.
How can a grading company not only grade their own cards (likely over grade) then list them in auction and the shill their own lots.
It's bad enough when an individual does it but a grading company????
Ruben Baghdassarian

And people are worried about the grading company that has 90% market share going out of business.

SGC has less then 3%.

If any of these revelations are a death sentence for a third party grader it glaringly obvious that it's the company that's owner is caught up in this mess.

How unreal. You grade the cards, you sell them through auction houses and you enhance the price with illegal bidding.

Haha

You can't make this stuff up. We might be seeing these fellas in an episode of American Greed.

If I had a large amount of funds tied up in SGC cards this would make me sick to my stomach.

+1 Agreed! I am not sure why but I feel 100x worse knowing that the head of a TPG would do this. Auctioneers are like mechanics...I try to find the ones who will rip you off the least, but the heads of SGC?!?! pretty ridiculous.

Yeah there seems to be a huge conflict of interest.........who is ready to argue with me again that SGC are worth the same as PSA for the exact same card in same numerical holder.....still not sure on B/S/T people ask and wont sell unless get a PSA 4 price for a SGC 4 card with all things being equal with the card .....and usually we get an 'off to ebay' or 'ill keep it (because dont want to sell at market price) '
comment..

Boca Raton, has a great homestead exemption like all of Florida...that's why OJ moved down to Florida

same with politicians....I vote for the guy/gal that will steal the least

Here is a list of all the shilled lots consigned by Steve and Dave. Most are SGC, but there are some PSA and GAI.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...pub?output=pdf

Forman shills
April 2007
Lot 464 1953 B Mantle SGC 88
Lot 476 1955 T Koufax SGC 92
Lot 1111 1911 E94 Crawford PSA 8
Lot 1354 1934 Goudey uncut sheet
Lot 1379 1953 T B Russell SGC 96

June 2007
Lot 1035 1964 T Giants F Robinson SGC 96
Lot 1678 1938 PSA graded collection

Just means he is an equal opportunity profiteer.

Peter, I guess that's the point I made earlier: this type of practice is not just reflected on as shady now, it was shady then. As evidenced by its appearance in the court documents.

If ANY auction house offers this type of shady practice, it should have been a big red flag and clearly was not worth the respect people were giving it. Just because a person or auction house compels someone to do something illegal/unethical, doesn't mean they have to do it.

Parsing it for people sitting in judgement now is a cop out. It was wrong then - that's the point.

The hypothesis that came to mind as to why the Formans had some cards they didn't cross to SGC prior to selling were:

1) They couldn't bump it to SGC because it was trimmed and were worried about their "guarantee".

2) The pop report with the other graders made the card look rarer than their pops would.

3) So they could have deniability that they showed preference to their cards

.double post.

Sounds pretty logical to me.

I wonder if SGC's move to Florida was planned after they new this bombshell was coming out.

Thinking like a criminal there...and probably right.

The head of SGC is involved in nearly 30 lots that were shill bid with approximately 2/3 of the card graded by his own company.

PSA has members of its Board of Experts appear as shill bidders.

Maybe no one else goes to jail after Bill and Doug but there are certainly a lot more than just one auction house getting sh#t on them over this.

Selective reading? Comprehension problem?

There are just as many PSA names on the list as there are SGC.

You see an owner?

No, just happened the same week.;)

When the news broke about the move, someone on here questioned if the company was being sold. That might be holding more water now.

You know what is most infuriating about this mess?! Last spring I taught a card collecting class to my students. Many members on here donated cards/supplies to us and they LOVED it. It was collecting in its purest form and was great to see. I know there are thousands of honest collectors out there and I will convey that to these kids......but I do have a few questions:

How am I supposed to explain to them what this group of lying, cheating, SCUMBAGS managed to do to the hobby? I don't care if you are a member of this board or not......how am I supposed to explain to these kids that a bunch of greedy adults took one of the most wonderful hobbies in the world and turned it into something VILE and DISGUSTING?!

Just tell them that your classroom is make-believe.

Tough question, but tell them this type of thing has been going on for years in all areas of the world and that 2 wrongs don't make a right and the fact these people were caught.

Reinforce the love about collecting and not about making money and the hobby will survive.

If someone at a company is breaking the law, does it matter if it's an employee or an owner?

You're free to talk about it over here on this board. Let's see you go start a thread about it over on CU, and call out the PSA names that are involved. No, you want do that because you and have no balls! Grow a set!

I think the two leading auction houses in the world are Sotheby's and Christies. Just Google them and see how many times they have broken the law.
Regulation is definitely needed.

Just to clarify, my name appears at the top of that post as I'm replying to Pete. I am not Pete...

There is a huge difference between an employee and the owner.

Use some common sense.

In terms of starting a thread on CU about it. You are right I won't. But obviously you recognize my name from there and I have taken on all comers. That is a fact.

There isn't one person on any of these boards that would have withstood the hazing I took and never once complained or went to the mods. I obviously have a set. Thank you very much.

So much shilling and scam, from ONE auction house during a small window in time. Imagine if that window were opened up a little wider, and threw a few more auction houses into the mix? I bet a lot of people are hoping that doesn't happen ...

Because it can be just a hobby if you want it to be. I never had any illusions that something some people are willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on would be all sunshine and lollipops. I could care less Peter helped a friend out, SGC and PSA names are on the list, or Allen tried to pull a Wolf of Wall Street. I collect baseball cards. I like my signed cards in PSA slabs. I like my unsigned cards in SGC slabs. When place a bid in a AH or on eBay I place it knowing that the item is both worth that price to me and that I expect to pay that amount. If I win it for less, it's just extra syrup on my pancakes. I have nothing against those outraged by this, card doctors, coaches corner, or any of the hundreds of other hobby villains. I could just care less, I'd rather be looking for the next card on my list.

I'm shocked that Dave Forman's lawyer hasn't made a comment yet.

And if you discovered one of your slabbed signatures was doctored? You could care less? Employees were willing to do what it took to make more money by shilling - would they authenticate a doctored signature to make more money?

Of course you won't. You have no balls. If you did, you would call out Reznikoff, Keating, Rullo, etc.

Why will you do it over here, but not over there?

The only problem then is that your next card is going to cost you more money because the market for years was artificially inflated by the shillers in these auctions. Even if they won their own lot back it created a false market.

Probably because he knows the thread will last 5 seconds before it's gone.

CU
 

Someone did start a thread. The OP, who I do not know and had a fairly low post count, generally just mentioned the matter and referred people to this board.

The thread lasted longer that 5 seconds ( or various lamb shakes), but not by much. Not sure if the OP was banned or put on probation :)

article re forman
 

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-counter-suit/

what to make of this?

I think it will. It's the very reason the silence from some board members is deafening.

41 Apr‐07 1512 Joe Orlando (consignor) Bill Mastro and Andrew Filipowski (shill bidders) Rob Rosen (Winner) $85,245.00 (winning price) $19,099.00 (loss amount)

Now what do you say?

If Peter Calderon for example shill bidded, does that mean Heritage Auctions shill bids in their auctions?

See R312 thread. I found my next card last night and am looking for the next one!! All of this thread is a good learning lesson.

This may be a mistake on the government's part. I thought that lot was consigned by JOHN Orlando a BoSox batboy?

I assume you're well aware that people on CU are not really allowed to speak their mind about anything beyond rainbows and unicorns. Anything that smells remotely of scandal or discord is ruthlessly squashed, and far too often people lose their posting privileges there. Many here might not think that's a big deal, but there are still many there that enjoy the interaction and community.

I think it's wrong to not allow members to discuss a topic like this, but it's their private playground - they've consistently shown that they won't tolerate mud-slinging, especially when it concerns their big submitters, staff and shareholders. Better to get out in front of a situation rather than cover up and deny, imo.

I know I was using your quote.

Or a member of his family. I have it on good word that is not the Joe Orlando affiliated with PSA.

For curiosity sake was there any shills done

not sure Heritage needs to
 

although that never stopped anybody. Unless I'm mistaken they have a rule that allows a consignor to bid on their own items as long as they pay the hammer.
The more I look into this mess and despite knowing this was likely going on, I'm quite sad about some of the people who will look you in the eye and tell you they have your best interests in mind - and are cheating the hell out of you behind your back. Complicity is equally distasteful.
Certainly a part of me hopes this whole debacle hopefully isn't over - as shining a bright light on the subject might lead to some oversight (although a witch hunt is unpalatable and not productive) - outfits like roaches corner are obvious bad guys - but when the "good guys" start to behave like bad guys something should be done - maybe now the fuse has been lit.
That Dave Forman has been exposed for allegedly shilling his own stuff - such a breach of trust is truly freaking vile. Along the way I think my TPG of choice has made some bad business decisions. This perhaps a game changer. It will certainly devalue the brand as trust is an important concept when farming out one's cards. Much sadness.

Isn't PSA a publicly traded company?

While their stock holdings are likely too small to be reportable to the SEC so we could never know, isn't it likely that members of this so-called "Board of Experts" own some stock?

Not the PSA Joe Orlando. This has been discussed already in this thread.

Any other Net54 members want to come clean?

JC Clarke - multiple items consigned / all shilled by Jay Dyer
Kevin Struss - on the shill list once / but the victim far more often - any explanation?
...