Net54baseball.com Forums - the list (of criminals) is revealed

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- - the list (of criminals) is revealed (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=217245)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sago (Post 1498420)

Godwin's law has been invoked. Thread may be ending soon.

Yup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitehse (Post 1498311)

I can certainly see everyone's point in that shilling affects everyone in some way. I guess seeing some of these same names over and over again bidding mainly on high end items allowed me to come to the conclusion that this is a "rich person" problem because of the dollars that were being tossed around. After all, paying the 20% buyers premium on an item that was not sold was more than I am sure I spent in the last two years on my collection and not something I could afford to do.

I just am still not convinced that a low level collector like me has even been touched by this issue and that is probably because what I collect is not something that is in high demand and therefore, probably not as likely to be shilled.

But please know, I do understand your point and it remains to be seen how this will effect collectors like me.

The other way it can affect collectors like you (And me too!) is in how the prices of the expensive stuff set the prices for the less expensive stuff.

The pricing for cards is primarily controlled by demand. Rarity can create demand, but within some limits. If it was otherwise, I'd be a lot closer to wealthy than I am.

So lets say a card is a certain price - like maybe a 52 Mantle. The first one I saw in person cost the dealer who had it around 900, either a record, or close to it at the time. And it was pretty nice. Since I had little money I hoped to someday "settle" for a beat one for maybe 100. Or, roughly 10% of a really nice one. And that ratio seems to hold since 1980, a fairly nice one a 6 or so is 30,000+ and a beater around 3-4000.

Now lets assume there's been rampant shilling at one major auction(Pretty easy assumption) - and that the prices they supposedly got are part of what drives the other auctions results. How much of the higher prices since 1980 are real? certainly not ALL of it, and certainly not none of it. Since the shilled results would add to each other over several years, lets say 25% of the current price level is from the shilling. By extension, the price of the "A" card is also inflated by 25%. So it should really be maybe 2500-3000.
AHA! you say. "But I still can't afford one so it doesn't affect me"

Well, the price of the Mantle helps drive the prices of the other high numbers by increasing the popularity of the set. And those prices in turn help drive the prices of the rest of the set. (And the rest of the 50's sets too. )So if we look at maybe half of that effect being seen in the lower numbered cards then the average commons that sell for $10 should really sell for 8-9. And that is at a level that affects pretty much everyone.

If you don't mind paying 12-25% more for cards, I've a whole bunch I'd happily sell at 25% over the current prices. :D

Steve Birmingham

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbsports33 (Post 1498326)

We are just going to need to keep moving forward and enjoy ourselves in the hobby, sure a mark has been left - and people made bad choices that may have changed people. I know one thing - cards, photos and other items are always going to be there for us to treasure. My direction changed a few years back and noticed we had enough auction houses in the hobby and felt that it would be a difficult challenge to manage and run a business platform that could potentially have issues. I really try and keep it simple now, for me and the collectors/dealers that I work with.

Jimmy

+1000000 on TOO many AHs!

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitehse (Post 1498290)

I have sat back and read this whole thread and followed the Mastro proceedings since it began. I am not a big money guy so I never had the opportunity to bid in a Mastro auction so I really have no dog in this fight.

I do have to say I did bring a few quality items to Mastro at one of the Chicago National conventions which I thought would do well in their auctions but was literally laughed at by Doug Allen and told they don't deal with such small dollar items. Now these were very old, highly collectible items I received while working in Major League Baseball that I since sold for well over 1K each without having to give anyone a cut of the take. I just thought the treatment of a small collector by the big auction house was less than professional as Doug didnt need to laugh at the "low dollar" items I had but explain how it really was not worth their time.

Ok I will stop rambling and get to my point. My point is that I think the only people that are effected by this case is those with pockets full of money who can purchase these high end collectibles. The average collector was frozen out of most, if not all of the Mastro items and therfore was never effected by the shill bidding issue. I think the backbone of this hobby, the average collector IS and will continue focusing on lower grade sets and cheap cards because that is what they can afford. I know I gave up a long time ago trying to purchase one or two high grade cards when I realized I could build whole sets for what one high grade card will cost me. I agree with Mooch here in that true collectors, not investors will continue to purchase these less expensive cards and be just as happy with their collection. When collecting raw, less conditioned sets it is pretty safe to say rarely does shilling happen on a ex-mt raw 1963 Pete Richert card.

I think there these other message boards have had zero to no response to this issue because this issue does not directly touch the average collector. Seems to me this Mastro issue is rich people problems for the most part.

Doug Allen is a dousche bag and deserves all the negative treatment he gets and hopefully an a$$ raping at camp walk away post sentancing. He treated many people like he treated you and acted like he was a big shot and above everyone else at most shows. I have said the same thing about Mastro in the past.

Where you are wrong is when you say it only affected big money people. Many great collections went through Mastro and Steinbach, Mastronet, and Legendary. I plugged my nose and bid on many items. There are many "big money" and "small money" people on that list. Remember that the shilling probably affected the small time collector more as they were reaching to spend that much money on one or two items. I can't imagine how big that list would be if we knew the true extent of their crimes and all of the years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo (Post 1498510)

Doug Allen is a douche bag and deserves all the negative treatment he gets.
I can't imagine how big that list would be if we knew the true extent of their crimes and all of the years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo (Post 1498510)

Duluth speaks da truth. Spelled out like a hammer slamming down on a nail.

Am a low-grade collector (compared to typical N54 guys) who has 6 cards I've paid more than $100 for, with only my $450 DiMaggio above $150.

Here is where I do feel impacted...just not in the tens of thousands like others of you.

1. Had once imagined owning certain White Whale cards like a 52T Mantle. While the AHs dealt with the high grade ones, the prices of those definitely dragged the low end ones up with them.

2. Still hoping to own a 33G Ruth and 34G Gehrig. Reliant on TPGs to assure authenticity. But if ethics are that low, who knows...

3. Ditto for card doctoring.

4. While not necessarily the cause, the same bidding practices seen with Mastro are probably taking place with even the $25-$50 items I've won thru high volume eBay auctioneers. Greed is greed.

5. Though I don't buy as an investment or with any intent to sell, if scandals like this pop the card bubble, my own modest collection gets dragged down with it.

At the same time, show me anything that involves millions of dollars that hasn't already been completely corrupted. Doesn't make it right...just means it's no shock.

Any comment from anyone else on the list yet?

Hauls of Shame site now reporting

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stonepony (Post 1498594)

Hauls of Shame site now reporting

At least the NY DAILY News article was correct from what I saw.
Nash reports a lot of completely made up lies. Absolute fairy tales. Just like when he took the 5th amendment over 20 times in in a court deposition, as to where he got fake memorabilia he consigned. Why would anyone take the 5th amendment when asked WHERE THEY GOT FAKE ITEMS? He made all of it himself is my understanding. And his association with John Rogers should land him in jail for a long time. I wonder if his outstanding lawsuits and recent personal bankruptcy will follow him to jail. Hopefully they will. He is a loser. As I just told someone, I actually stick up for losers a little bit. Without them it would be much more difficult to succeed. I predict bad things will happen to Nash because he does bad things and deserves everything he gets (as we all do, for that matter).