++++ Basically what I was trying :rolleyes: to say.

I can certainly see everyone's point in that shilling affects everyone in some way. I guess seeing some of these same names over and over again bidding mainly on high end items allowed me to come to the conclusion that this is a "rich person" problem because of the dollars that were being tossed around. After all, paying the 20% buyers premium on an item that was not sold was more than I am sure I spent in the last two years on my collection and not something I could afford to do.

I just am still not convinced that a low level collector like me has even been touched by this issue and that is probably because what I collect is not something that is in high demand and therefore, probably not as likely to be shilled.

But please know, I do understand your point and it remains to be seen how this will effect collectors like me.

SGC's Forman in 2010 accused Mastro of misusing his account for shill bidding
 

Something to keep in mind in the discussion about Forman: It isn't a surprise that his name appeared on the list as a shill bidder. He accused Mastro in a 2010 lawsuit of using "unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals," according to a trade press article at the time. (Pasted in full, below.)

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-counter-suit/

Looking back six years later, Forman's allegations were on the mark. I'd say give him the benefit of the doubt for now. A lot of people whose names showed up on the same list may be in the same boat.

To be sure, I'm uncomfortable with Forman's involvement as a market participant. He shouldn't be buying and selling collectibles that his company grades. The same goes for David Hall. It undermines their credibility and integrity, which hurts all of us.


SGC Boss Claims Shill Bidding in Counter Suit
February 8, 2010 By Rich Mueller

Seven months after being sued for money they say he owed them, SGC president Dave Forman has submitted a counterclaim against Mastro Auctions.

The court papers filed January 27 accuse the parent company of the now defunct auction house of several transgressions including shill bidding, a practice that artificially raises bids to generate a higher profit.

The counterclaim obtained by Sports Collectors Daily also states that a grand jury was convened in Chicago last month to see evidence and hear testimony on issues centered around an FBI investigation of unethical practices within the sports collecting hobby.

Forman, the owner of one of the hobby’s largest card grading and authentication services, also claims the auction company knowingly sold him a T200 Fatima Premium Cleveland Americans card that had been altered.

Mastro Auctions, which shut down last year, filed suit against Forman in the same Illinois state court last June, seeking $400,000 it says he owes. In 2007 and 2008, Mastro claims Forman purchased cards but didn’t pay for them. Forman claims Ketap (the name of the corporation that once did business as Mastro Auctions) has not produced receipts in support of those allegations and disputes that figure.

Forman claims the amount he owes Mastro was in error because his account with the auction house was never credited with proceeds from the sale of several lots he had consigned, including a 1934-36 Diamond Stars complete set, a 1933 Goudey Babe Ruth graded PSA 7, a T206 Buck Herzog graded SGC 88 and four rare comic books.

The suit indicates the grading and authentication service owner and the auction house had a long-standing relationship that involved Forman buying and selling cards. Ketap claimed in its suit that “dozens” of rare collectible items and memorabilia were bought and sold by Forman.

Under claims of violations involving the Illinois Consumer Fraud Act, Forman now says Mastro made unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals.

“Ketap and its officers knowingly conducted rampant fraud through a process known as shill bidding,” the claim states.

Forman claims that in a 2006 auction “a Ketap employee shill bid on a Ted Williams baseball card when, upon information and belief, he neither had the money or interest in owning it.”

Another of Forman’s shill bidding allegations states that in May of 2006, company officials artificially raised the bidding for an L-1 Leather Ty Cobb. “The item was then selling for $17,000,” the court papers state. “During that converstion, Mastro learned that the collector would pay a maximum bid of $41,000 for that item. Minutes later, a bid of $41,000 was placed on that item which would have triggered the collector’s maximum bid. Upon information and belief the $41,000 bid was the result of shill bidding effectuated by Mastro and Ketap.”

Forman also claims Mastro Auctions allowed various consignors to look at the ceiling bid information during its auction in the fall of 2007 and alleges that while Mastro promoted a “no reserve” auction, selected consignors were allowed to have reserves on their items.

Mastro Auctions was in the process of ending its run as one of the hobby’s top auction houses when Forman also claims it sold a Jackie Robinson rookie card graded 98 by his company, and a 1911 T205 Ty Cobb card graded 84, without his permission. Forman claims the items sold for significantly less than the $125,000 minimum he would have accepted.

The counterclaim and third-party complaint filed by Forman and his attorneys, seeks punitive damages and attorney’s fees.

As I once said before , he is like the Jose Canseco of memorabilia, one of the worst offenders, people do not want to believe him, but in the end.....

We are just going to need to keep moving forward and enjoy ourselves in the hobby, sure a mark has been left - and people made bad choices that may have changed people. I know one thing - cards, photos and other items are always going to be there for us to treasure. My direction changed a few years back and noticed we had enough auction houses in the hobby and felt that it would be a difficult challenge to manage and run a business platform that could potentially have issues. I really try and keep it simple now, for me and the collectors/dealers that I work with.

Jimmy

I guess they think they are living in Nazi Germany.

Uh...his brother was his shill bidder on nearly every item. What did Mastro say to him when his item didn't sell? Obviously if he wasn't doing the shilling he knew it was going on for a long time before any suit was brought forth.

You're jumping to conclusions, as far as Forman's involvement in shill bidding, or lack thereof. We don't have enough facts to know what happened -- except we do know what he alleged six years ago. The best thing Forman could do now is tell his side of the story publicly. That's crisis management 101. That said, as I said before, he shouldn't have been trafficking in collectibles that SGC grades in the first place. If he'd stuck with that policy, he wouldn't be in this position -- nor would collectors who own SGC-graded cards. From a reputational standpoint, it also doesn't help that he's moving the company to Boca Raton, which is the world's largest unfenced penitentiary and the country's most notorious haven for penny-stock frauds, boiler rooms and other investment scams.

Well, if the white collar fits...

So, how's BVG looking as a grading option?

Godwin's law has been invoked. Thread may be ending soon.