Oh sorry Rob.... my wording was bad, as is often the case when I'm hurrying.

Regarding the more recent one with the orange spine, it looks to be altered at the extreme tip. What you commonly see is that someone took a scissors to it, to re-sharpen the tip (forming an un-natural point). Many times, these were yanked off the wall (by a Mom or when the kid went off to college, etc). Very often, the tack or nail holding the tip would remain in the wall, and take a chunk of felt with it.

It's very common, and often collectors/sellers will try to re-sharpen the blunted/torn tip by trimming it into an artificial point. When this is done, the pennant can lose well over an inch in length. I am 99% sure that's what happened with Marc's newer orange-spined Giants Pennant.

Another thing to note (which Greg alluded to) is that many of these vintage pennants were manufactured with a blunt point. You can tell if you've seen enough of them. Its a natural look, that's hard to define in writing. But I still remember getting a Braves Pennant at Crosley Field in 1968 with a very blunt tip. I'd estimate that about 15% were just made that way.

Hope this helps to better explain it!

Here’s the Giants with tassels (bottom ones tucked behind)

Thanks for the input everyone. I do think that the one I just received has what Mark described: a bit of purposeful tapering at the tip. I knew that when I bought it. I figured that damaged tips must be common with these and I liked the Orange spine better for display. I never considered that the blunted tip on the other one might have been purposeful/original.

Hard to say how much might be missing from the tip of the orange spine pennant, but, the more I look at it (and after hearing from Greg), I don't think that this pennant was ever the same length as the one with the yellow spine. It is more narrow for the length of the entire pennant and it doesn't look like any other areas have been cut, including the orange spine. The stitching ends the same way top and bottom.

Overall, these pennants have a feel of being not the highest quality, so it makes sense that quality control was not the primary goal of the maker. Especially this maker.

Greg- do you have others with the more silky/sheen spine?

If they made SF Giants, they at least revisited this design around 1958. If so, it makes me wonder if there is an LA Dodgers version.

It would be my contention that the smaller pennant got wet either purposefully to clean it or just a basement. When they get wet they shrink throughout the pennant. Not all, but some. I would agree with Mark that the tip was trimmed as well on the smaller one.

You guys have some nice stuff. Merry Christmas. Jason

Marc, yes I have a few, if I correctly understand to what you are referring. Most pennants, even cloth ones, have a felt spine and tassels. I have some that are 100% cloth. Not sure if I have cloth spine on felt though. That's pretty cool.

Wait....these guys are part of a "series"? :confused: I noticed there are some subtle differences between the NY and SF "giant."

As far as size differences, my NY Giants would say "yeah."

P.S. The SF pennant has the silk-like spine.

One thing I notice about almost all of the pennants from this series is that they have a generic baseball scene somewhere on the pennant. Swinging hitter, sliding runner, maybe just crossed bats. All but the Senators, that is … two versions shown below and neither has them. So I think the SF Giants might be from another maker, who just decided to use the Giant logo … which probably makes it even more cool, not less. I love the font used for the name.

Awhile back I posted this pic which comes from the back of a book published back in 1956 … Inside Baseball for Little Leaguers. (I don't own it but a simple google search pulls it up.) This was at least five years *after* the pennants from the series were (first?) made. There you see all the logos from this set of pennants … 12 of the 16 that is. There is no (known) Orioles from this set, and the Phillies had drifted away from the blue jay. Notice the Reds logo … I guess they didn't want to put the mad bomber (my avatar!) on a book for kids. Interestingly, that's the logo that Keezer used for their Redlegs pennants.

(EDIT: I just noticed, the one Senators pennant does have a little baseball towards the tip … also noticed that on the book, unlike the pennant, the Dodger bum is identical except that he isn't smoking his cigar!)

So were these pennants used the same logo but weren’t part of that series?

The common element in this series seems to be an original mascot design on the head-end of the pennant; with the city name spelled out and a player (or two) wedged between the lettering. On all but the Washington pennants, this seems to be the case. (Greg: just curious as to why you think the Washington pennants belong to this series.)

We can eliminate Keezer as the maker. Although they always used monochrome graphics, like those in this series, they also always used tassels. Thick tassels. The kind that are sewed in tight and never fall out. Moreover, on many (but not all) of their pennants from the late 1940s and 1950s, they stamped their maker's mark on the reverse. To my knowledge none of these pennants have any such mark. Also, I have a Keezer catalogue from ca. 1950 and the artwork used for the 16 big league baseball teams is different from these; and, different from those shown on Greg's ca. 1956 little league ad.

I think we can eliminate ADFLAG, too. Some pennants from this series feature tassels; but, the majority do not. To my knowledge ADFLAG never used tassels.

That leaves WGN. Their production of sports pennants began in the 1930s; but, it was limited to Chicago sports teams. Or, so I thought.... They also began using monochrome designs; but switched to polychrome about 1950. Most importantly, they used tassels in the early 1940s; but, seem to have stopped using them sometime in the mid-1940s.

To me, this last characteristic is the best evidence that WGN manufactured this series. Of the usual suspects, they're the only one that makes sense.

Of course, it's possible some other maker made these that we all haven't yet identified, like Annin. There has to be at least one other national manufacturer from the late 1940s that we haven't yet identified, and this series may be part of their work.

It's interesting this mystery maker made both an NY and SF Giants pennant for the series; but, only a Brooklyn Dodgers. I'd like to think I know LA Dodgers pennants as well as anyone and I cannot think of any Los Angeles Dodgers pennant that looks like this; or, utilizes that same bum smoking cigar artwork.

I've got the Browns Pennant from this series, and (aside from the Reds) it is my favorite. Will try to dig it out and show it here...

Also, I agree with Greg, that the Senators are part of this series. Same artist/artwork, minus the little vignette.

Also want to add that these are all very high quality, thick felt pennants. One of them that I owned previously had vintage ink writing on the back which stated the date of the game... "Red Sox 4 - Indians 2, June 16, 1951" or something to that effect. I don't recall the exact score or date, but it was definitely sold in 1951.

Lastly, there is a second Red Sox variation. Similar to the one Greg pictured, but quite different, on a darker red felt. I will try to post that one after the Holidays as well.

Mike … my guess is: same company, different production run. The one on the left may be earlier. I think Domer is onto something …. I'll address it below. Love the orange Cubs!

Domer, I think you nailed it. First, yeah the Senators pennant fits the bill, it actually has a crossed bats graphic that a couple others also have. I never noticed that, either. Not sure why my other Senators pennant is missing the cartoon guy and the other stuff but its the same font and same Capitol building graphic.

But there's a lot of evidence that puts these to 1951 (in addition to Mark's hand-dated pennant) and to a company from Chicago.

For some reason there's one team that got a dated anniversary pennant … the Cubs. And there are multiple versions of it. Why no other NL teams? Also the non-dated Cubs pennant comes in two different colors … I think the Chisox also does. Don't know if true for any other clubs.

Lastly, I think this may establish WGN as the maker for a certain late 40s set. I am attaching a pic I pulled off an auction site … I see the same Boston Bees pennant Mark has. These are identifiable by a thicker spine, and thin tassels that are further away from the corners. Mike's Cubs pennant shares this style and it has the same logo. I also have a red one pictured and also there's the NY Giants pennant pictured a few posts back with tassels. … Even though there's a different logo'd Cubs pennant pictured here, the pennant is *identical* in composition and design.

Yes and your alternate Red Sox version is tougher and much more attractive. Been looking hard for it. That one fits the general style better, you'll noticed most logos have the team nickname under the logo.

Would love to see your Browns pennant … in fact I'd really really really really love to see the Browns pennant in "wave two" of your pennant sale :)

Speaking of this set … I have seen these in a slightly smaller size, and not with tassels but with a spine that extended out, as if it was part of a string. Do you know what I mean?

Check this out, FWIW...

Detroit Tigers rare variation pennant, dated 1951.

Same exact Design/Batter/Artist as the Yankees Pennant in the pic above... including color-shaded graphics, wavy city name font and Batter striking ball with lines of motion.

Yes! The tassels were like an extension of the spine.

Matt Z. had a bunch of them, and (I think) has finally sold them all. The Tigers stuck around on eBay for the longest time, but is now gone, I believe.

Matt's been a great contributor here... perhaps he has some perspective on these smaller ones as well.

Based on the white felt spine on most of Greg's pennants from this series, the non-felt orange sheen/ribbon/satin spine on at least two of the SF Giants pennants (me and Rob), the comment that this series is very well made, and the estimated date of 1951, it seems like the SF Giants pennant is not part of the same "series." I would not use the term "high quality" to describe the two SF Giants pennants I now own.

The existence multiple Cubs pennants seems to point to a midwest/Chicago area maker. Not sure why they would run off SF Giants pennants unless they had no other SF Giants version to sell at an early 1958 Cubs game or something like that. But then you'd think that there would be an LA Dodgers version too.

Here is what the spine material looks like on the SF Giants pennant.

I have never seen a spine like that ... ever.

The material looks a lot like nylon. Like it came from a stadium giveaway backpack--not a ca. 1958 pennant. Do you suppose it may have been added by a recent owner, post-purchase? As in ... "spinal surgery"?? Perhaps the original spine was 100% wool/felt ... and the moths made a meal of it back in the 1990s?

Do both of these SF pennants feature the very same material? Or just the one?

Wait, can we go back to something? The Phillies used a blue jay as their mascot?? :confused:

Apparently back in the mid 40s there was a push to change the team name, they had a contest and everything. For a few years they used both Phillies and Blue Jays. This link provides good details.

https://www.toddradom.com/blog/sport...e-jaysphillies

It never quite took, but they did wear a blue jay on the sleeve of some uniforms, and it appeared on programs and quite a few pennants. Pictured below are a few of them, the one with roster is from 1949 which is probably right at the time when they abandoned the idea.

It sounds like Rob's Giants pennant has this same material on the spine. There is no evidence of restitching. His pennant with this orange spine also looks to be about the same size as mine (with the Orange spine). The one I have with the yellow felt spine is a few inches longer (and wider). Also, my close up of the spine makes the material look new. It doesn't look very new in hand. It is pretty worn and tattered. It is also very thin, more like a ribbon.

Nah.... that spine is original. No spinal surgery there... I've seen that material used very sparingly. It's rare to find, but have seen it on more than a few occasions.

On a separate note....

It's too bad that Greg has such a sh*tty Phillies collection. C'mon Greg.... can't you hang some good ones?

Seriously, those are some rare and beautiful gems. I have never been able to get my hands on that white one with the Batter who looks like the Chucky Doll. I think I've seen two of those in 30+ years, and Greg's is one of them. To most people it's probably an ugly pennant.... but it's a thing of beauty to me!

That "Chucky" Phillies pennant is UG-LY! But I gotta hang it because it is so rare. Im guessing it is an early Ad Flag, since their artists were notoriously horrible. I look for any variation of the blue jay, there was one that came up on eBay about a year ago - deep blue with a large jay (these are more rare) similar to the gold one on the right … but I was outbid. Been trying to get one of the "daisy" oversized pennants, thought about the one that was just auctioned off but backed off since it had been part of a blanket and got torn.

I would love to tour Greg’s pennant cave. I could spend hours in there! I think it’s cool that Greg is focused exclusively on pennants, although he must have to sift through a whole bunch of garbage on ebay :p . Is FB Rob similarity focused?

Football Rob has been a bit absent as of late... maybe due to the Holidays, and living a normal life ;) But I know he collects a bit more (with pennants being his main focus by far).

With regard to eBay searches... He and I have discussed at length the best way to search vintage pennants on eBay (without being bombarded with mountains of cheap modern garbage). Things like choosing the "newly listed" option", specifying a price range, and omitting the words "Soccer, FIFA, Mini, Federation, Boxing, Basketball, Hockey, Roller, Derby, etc, etc.

You need to be careful though... I was omitting the word "new" and as a result was hiding pennants from all of the New York Teams.

Here's a recent and not too thrilling pickup. It is interesting, though, in that it has a similar Giant to that in the series we were just discussing.

Next, close-up of the silk/satin/ribbon spine. My naked eye just sees it as shiny.

Finally....I'm not a fan of the rigid top loaders...maybe they're too pricey for my cheap ass :p . At any rate, I like the very thin and very clear soft sleeves. I don't like the thicker, cloudier, "striated" plastic sleeves. Do any of you guys have a source for the thin ones?

Personally, I think Gi**t pennants look best in the cloudiest protector you can buy:D. But if you really want to see them, I use the Ultra Pro Protective Sleeves for Pennants 20 Count Pack, Clear
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultra-Pro-P...72.m2749.l2649

Last time I bought some, this was the best price for them. They are very clear, but ever once in a while you may find a slightly defective one in the pack.

Rick

Thanks, Rick!

As I read though the thread this morning, I was prepared to answer Rob's question on the sleeves. No need to though, as Rick provided the exact product that I was about to recommend. No cloudiness, and high quality... they're the best I've been able to find as well.

Haha...Yes. I was absent. I took some of my pennant budget and went on vacation with my wife (photo 1 below).

As far as my collection goes...I am about 97% pennants these days. They are the only thing I actively look for. The other 3% is oddball Rams items I stumble across. I flirt with getting back into cards but then I read all the drama and cool on the idea.

On displaying...My approach isn't quite the eye candy that Greg's is. Mine are stored like fine wine (photo 2). I moved 2.5 years ago and this was supposed to be temporary, but then I discovered they stack quite nicely. ;)

<a href="http://imgbox.com/OzWO2ceK" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/ca/20/OzWO2ceK_o.jpg" alt="image host"/></a>
<a href="http://imgbox.com/jY6LxA6a" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/ce/2c/jY6LxA6a_o.jpg" alt="image host"/></a>

Am I dreaming, or did you used to get 50 (or 100) for that price? Regardless, 20 would do me for a while.

Switzerland?

Those pennants need to be on a WALL, Rob!!!!

Yes...It was fantastic. Exceeded expectations. Makes me question what I'd rather spend money on. I've always loved travel, but this trip really swung the pendulum for me. So not sure those will be going on a wall any time soon. At least not mine. ;)

Some holiday season pennants for me. Thanks to Mark for the super rare Giants variation. The Astros in the pic is an upgrade and tough to find in such nice shape.

I also decided to fill in the 1970s for the Astros. The center pennant is new and tough to find in blue (very easy to find in white). The bottom pennant is the "VET" version. I'm going to keep an eye open for a non-VET version of that pennant to see if one exists.

Very nice Astros pennants, Marc. I agree, the upgraded Astros is more common in uni-color paint (orange), and the other ones I've seen seem to be cut weird. That includes the two sided Colts/ Astros. I think they are Ad Flag pennants which are notoriously cut bad. Yours looks crisp and straight, however.

I knew I had a blue Astros pennant and I just checked and found that it is the same as your bottom one, it is also a VET pennant. As far as the two above it, do they both have the '69 trademark?

By the way, regarding the earlier discussion on that early 50s series of pennants, I believe this pennant here is by the same company, and it lends even more credence to Domer's belief that they were made by WGN. Same type of baseball scene graphic, block letter font is similar, same spine, stitching... and the game was held at Comiskey.

So I have decided to try and complete the 1969 set of team pennants (even though I have no more room to display). The cloth pennants from this set have a great texture to them, hard to describe but they are well made. While the 1969 MLB trademark was used seemingly for a few years, my guess is that the cloth '69s are exclusively from that year. So I want to complete the set entirely in cloth. As a side note, the Indians has a 1970 trademark which I had never seen elsewhere, and I recall seeing a 1968 TM'd Twins pennant. The Pilots is my favorite ….

Lastly … does anyone think that the Phillies pennant in the pic is a candidate for the bleach mixture? I live in the heart of Phillies country and this darn pennant is so hard to find, this yellowed one was all I could get in 20 years.

Just added this to my collection.

Hey Greg- the top one has the 1969 trademark. It is moderately stiff felt. I also have earlier versions with tassels, but no trademark.

I'm pretty sure that the one in the middle is from the late 1970s. I have seen Astros team pics from the late 1970s with the white version of that pennant in the background.

I'm not sure about the year of the VET pennant, but I'd say late 70s early 80s. I still think it is interesting that most (if not all for some teams) pennants with these designs have the VET stamp. Did you pick up your Astros version long ago at a Phillies game (when you or your dad picked up the Rangers and Padres that you showed earlier) or more recently?

I think I got the blue one at a flea market many years ago. The three pennants I have pictured are all VET pennants, actually purchased at Veterans Stadium. Also I have a pic of my other Astros pennants (no VETs)

That’s got to be a fairly tough pennant. Don’t think I’ve had that one before. I have a couple of Millers pennants in that design and have seen other teams, but not Cubs.

Some of these 1969 cloth pennants can be very difficult to find. There are different color variations for at least some of the teams as well.

I looked around a bit tonight and found all three of Greg's VET pennants (Reds, Pirates, Braves) on ebay wihtout the VET label. The Pirates pennant also exists with the ASCO symbol, and an almost identical Reds version with 1975 champs added also exists with the ASCO symbol.

I also came across this Braves pennant with a different label. Almost looks like an AB (for Atlanta Braves?)

Never seen this mark before.... "PB," perhaps? Could be "AB" as well....

As with "VET" and previous mystery marks we've debated, I feel pretty good this Atlanta Braves pennant was made by Trench. The two fonts used for the city and team match those used by Trench for many, many years. Same with the artwork, which I recall first seeing on some late 1950s pennants of theirs. And, by 1969 or so, MLB pennants were pretty much limited to Trench, ASCO, Keezer and WGN--with these last two being unlicensed, as best I can tell.

If so, that suggests this mark is likely a concessionaire's mark. Perhaps some new company running merch out of Fulton County Stadium?

Many of these suspected concessionaire's marks, I've noticed, consisted solely of initials, e.g., "ARA" (Aramark); "VET" (???); "WC" (??); "SS" (Sportservice); and "ABC" (ABC Vending Co.). Now "PB" / "AB." Doesn't give you much to research, does it? The only exceptions that come to mind were "Charles Shear" and "Canteen Corp." These concessioners, unlike the others, didn't hide their identities behind some vague initials.

Concessionaire's mark seems to make sense. Thanks, Kyle. The only other team I searched for was the Angels (I have a kid who likes Mike Trout). Other than figuring out that it would be much more affordable to be an Angels collector than a Giants collector, I did see a 70s looking pennant with an "M" mark. I think baseball Rob has a Giants pennant with this same mark. Likely concessionaire as well.

Rolled the dice on this one and tried the water/bleach solution ... came out just dandy! The “before” pic is a few posts back, it is picture with a few others ...

If anyone has any of these 1969 cloth pennants to sell, lemme know ...

Right on! What mixture of bleach to water?

I did a quick search to see if I had a “cloth” 1969 Giants pennant. Not sure I do. Do you?

About 1/4 bleach and the rest water.

Nope, that’s one that I need. Actually I am just short of half the teams. It’s a cool looking series, possibly the last one before they went cheap.

So, what am I looking for....MLB logo and cloth? Probably white?