It's just so hard to say. I know that when I file sentencing memoranda or similar documents (yes, I'm a defense attorney, everyone fire away!) I wouldn't necessarily share the specific documents with my client ahead of time for him/her to review, although they would of course know the substance of what I was doing. And I'm sure that not many of my clients, even the more sophisticated ones, would understand how the federal filing system works or realize that something like that could be downloaded online and disseminated immediately. So perhaps it's just a case of attorney inadvertence in filing something publicly that he probably shouldn't have, and that Doug didn't specifically know about ahead of time. But there are many possibilities.

Dan yeah anything is possible but that's a pretty big thing to have done inadvertently for an experienced attorney in a case where many filings are under seal. If I had to bet I would bet that Doug wanted it this way.

Well my point wasn't whether people are glad it's there (which I am). My point was just that it was very curious that this document just now gets released publicly many years into the case, and that it was released by Doug's own attorney. The timing is just interesting, and I was wondering out loud what the strategic advantage might be of that particular course of action.

I have for quite some time. I find it far more enjoyable to own a run of lower grade cards than a single high grade one. Actually, if you like cards of the 1970s, there hasn't been a better time to collect them Even really nice 6-7-8 cards are going for less than the cost to slab them.

+1. A joint effort is the only way I can get in on one of those ridiculous AH mega lots. If cheap enough I will buy a hundred cards to get five, but if not, I have to pass entirely. I know for a fact that these sort of joint bid efforts raise the hammer prices on lots because I've lost out on certain items that were underbid by the group that would not have been bid at all by the individuals involved.

I have sat back and read this whole thread and followed the Mastro proceedings since it began. I am not a big money guy so I never had the opportunity to bid in a Mastro auction so I really have no dog in this fight.

I do have to say I did bring a few quality items to Mastro at one of the Chicago National conventions which I thought would do well in their auctions but was literally laughed at by Doug Allen and told they don't deal with such small dollar items. Now these were very old, highly collectible items I received while working in Major League Baseball that I since sold for well over 1K each without having to give anyone a cut of the take. I just thought the treatment of a small collector by the big auction house was less than professional as Doug didnt need to laugh at the "low dollar" items I had but explain how it really was not worth their time.

Ok I will stop rambling and get to my point. My point is that I think the only people that are effected by this case is those with pockets full of money who can purchase these high end collectibles. The average collector was frozen out of most, if not all of the Mastro items and therfore was never effected by the shill bidding issue. I think the backbone of this hobby, the average collector IS and will continue focusing on lower grade sets and cheap cards because that is what they can afford. I know I gave up a long time ago trying to purchase one or two high grade cards when I realized I could build whole sets for what one high grade card will cost me. I agree with Mooch here in that true collectors, not investors will continue to purchase these less expensive cards and be just as happy with their collection. When collecting raw, less conditioned sets it is pretty safe to say rarely does shilling happen on a ex-mt raw 1963 Pete Richert card.

I think there these other message boards have had zero to no response to this issue because this issue does not directly touch the average collector. Seems to me this Mastro issue is rich people problems for the most part.

what is 'cheap' sometimes becomes more expensive....1952 Mantle PSA 1s 3 years ago were a loot cheaper then they are now..

I do enjoy though in the past buying cards graded where the grading costs had to be more than the card...

Andrew -

One quick look at the list of shill bidding will make it apparent that your statement isn't correct. For example, look at all of the pricing of the items from the Feb-09 auction.

And this shill bidding affected pricing across the entire hobby. It doesn't matter if you were a Mastro bidder or not.

Bill

Would it matter if low grade collector got shilled $50 and Mr money bags got shilled $500?

I can't believe some of the posts here that because it affects 'big money players', its fine, they deserve it, and all the better for the Lower grade collector.

In my opinion, I don't care of it was $1, ONE time. It isn't right, and people should be held accountable.

It has been brought up a few times that this ** pathetic crap ** only effects high end collectors. I do agree that is the case in most situations. HOWEVER, I do also believe :rolleyes: it does effect “us” lower/middle end collectors in many situations:

Say someone was to bid on a lot of 500 middle grade, raw T206s. He wins the lot at $10,000 (which is in the “big boy” range). That's $20/card. If he's a dealer / flipper (which is fine), he could sell them at $25 a card and make a decent profit. And a buyer would be happy at that price.

NOW, say he was shilled up to $12,000. Then the cards are $24 each. He would then have to pass that “bump” onto his buyers. So, now, he's selling these “shilled” cards at $30 each.

You can say “only $5” difference. BUT it adds up over the long run of anyone's “low to mid grade” set. As well as, if not worse, giving a false, inflated worth of the cards (just like the “big” cards).

IMO, everyone's screwed. Very sad, indeed.