Nice Astros w/Batter, Marc...

Not sure I’ve ever seen it with forest green felt. Very attractive variation!

Thanks, Mark. Luckily for me, these Astros pennants are not very expensive. If the exact same pennant said Houston Colts on it (a year or two earlier), it would cost 5-10 times as much. I think a red Colts version just went for $250 or so.

So you don't think the pennants are legit?

No ... I do think they are legit. Why do you think otherwise?

The middle pennant is especially nice. Its an ASCO, and I have yet to see this in cloth (as I am trying to complete that set).

58 Dodgers
 

cool find yesterday

;)

That Bum in a cloud above the Coliseum is one of the truly great post-war Pennants on so many levels. Probably the Dodgers first-ever pennant after leaving Brooklyn. Two Beauties!

I agree with Mark, that Trench CEO might not have cared much about quality (per Kyle’s interview) but he had some creative designers. Beautiful pennant!

I wonder though, is the Bum dreaming about future Dodger Stadium? The little baseball trademark seems more early 60s to me. I would think the other Bum in Coliseum pennant might predate it, or coincide ... or who cares it’s awesome no matter what!

I bet they were sold concurrently. Just a hunch with nothing to back it up.

We’ve all seen the pics of stadium vendors selling Pennants. And back then, it wasn’t unusual to see 4-5 different variations being peddled at the same time.

I guess we’ll never know for sure unless a definitive photo surfaces... which is highly doubtful. Almost as doubtful as the Trench CEO recalling it from memory. :rolleyes:

Believe it or not: this "new home" was what Walter O'Malley envisioned as his Brooklyn Super Stadium, a facility he hoped to construct atop a train station, providing convenient transport to/from the suburbs via the Long Island Express. At one point, O'Malley's super stadium was to be a domed ballpark--first of its kind, well ahead of the Astrodome.

The image was created by legendary artist Willard Mullin and originally appeared on the cover of the team's 1954 year book.

We can thank urban planner Robert Moses for thwarting O'Malley's grand plan. Moses was only willing to allow for a stadium in Queens--not Brooklyn. This, O'Malley said, was the straw that broke the camel's back. He promptly met with LA City Council members who offered him Chavez Ravine, and the rest is history....

The above notwithstanding, this didn't stop Trench from "appropriating" the artwork on to one of their pennants a few years later. This time, they swapped out the image of the super stadium for, of all things, a halo.... With this alteration in mind, they must have felt the "new home" reference was obvious: Dodger Stadium, in the city of Angels.

As talented as Trench's Art Department was, they too had no qualms stealing other artists' work. The other bum depicted on Trench's other Coliseum pennant was also a Willard Mullin creation. The tiny headed giant depicted on NY and SF Giant stadium pennants by Trench was also, I believe, a Willard Mullin illustration.

Note the SportService logo in the bottom left corner.

Great info, as always, Kyle!

Thanks Rob for the turn around no matter what I did I could not flip it

BYW they are a total of $25 at a yard sale

Welcome to my world on the picture flipping!

25 bucks for the pair... that's like getting them completely free from an auction house, and paying only for shipping. :D

Kyle, I've seen that 1954 yearbook cover so many times and never recognized the Bum connection with the LA "New Home" pennant until you mentioned it.

It was almost certainly sold outside the Coliseum since it was very unlikely O'Malley would have permitted anything picturing the Bum to be sold inside at his concession stands. The Bum didn't fit the image O'Malley was trying to present - the Dodgers were a successful franchise, not likable losers.

We've discussed this before, but I just saw a video on PBS discussing the history of the Dodgers, and there was a wide screenshot of O'Malley at a May 1958 news conference trying to sell the public on voting "Yes" for a new stadium at Chavez Ravine. Pictured behind O'Malley are the 1955 Championship Banner, and an LA Dodger pennant with no Bum in sight
The screenshot and my pennant are pictured below.
Attachment 424136
Attachment 424137

Rick,
I’ve never seen that pennant before. It’s got to be pretty tough. Some of those new conference or photo op pennants are very limited productions or one off’s. Especially with that dark blue matching piping.

Jason, I believe Mark had posted his copy earlier, but I don't believe there are many around. It may be the first "official" LA pennant, not counting the SF/LA commemorative pennant for the first game out west. I bought this in a group of pennants in an auction, so I couldn't ask the owner about its history.

The only two I have EVER seen are mine and one in a group lot, auctioned by Hunt's in one of their Internet Auctions. Seems like about 6 - 7 months ago. Is that where you obtained it, Rick?

If so then it's just those two that I'm aware of. Make it three, if Rick got his from someplace other than Hunts.

Yes, that was where I bought it, along with some other pennants from the same time period.

Great acquisition, and apparently still just two of that Dodgers version known to exist!

Biltmore Hotel 1958
 

A closer look at the pennant

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...2dc59c8d_b.jpg

If I did indeed buy a "rare" one, many others are about to surface for sale everywhere.:)

Hahaha...Thought that only happened to me. :mad:

I bought and then un-bought this last night. It was priced too good to pass up and then upon closer inspection I started to realize why. Unless this is some kind of early prototype, it looks like a crafts class project. Is it just me or do I see tracing lines on some of the graphics and really sloppy cutting?

I have a real version of this one and comparing the two, the differences were glaring...so I backed out.

To the seller's credit, he didn't give me a hard time and he does have a couple other legit football pennants from the era, but nothing as valuable as this one would be if real.

Rob- I agree that the cutting of the letters looks sloppy. Can you post some pics of your other one to compare?

LOL! I bought this after it was reposted. I have same questions and I’ll know when I see and feel it. And if it ain’t legit I’ll have this documentation to return it. I noticed the exact same things, the graphics look a bit more crude, the face and the stars on the boots are different. Seems like an odd pennant to reproduce, though. Could be a vintage knockoff? We will see!

Here’s a pic I found online, details much smoother. So it’s different. The spine even looks a little crude in this one. We’ll see

Can you confirm that the graphics were in fact screen printed atop the felt? From your photos it almost looks like the graphics were cut from a sheet of vinyl; then affixed to the felt. But that should be pretty obvious when you have it in hand.

You can definitely see evidence of the scissor marks on the lettering ... had this been screen printed, they would look more smooth. Unless they utilized an open stencil that was cut from hand...?

I think the original pennant was made by ADFLAG; and to my knowledge they always screen printed their pennants using the conventional method.

Looking forward to the verdict!

Yeah I’ll know right away. The seller seems like a quality guy, I’ll say that much.

Here's mine vs this oddity...

What it looks like, compared to yours, is that the letters were cut out in small straight lines. Like with a utility knife.

The lack of detail jumps out to me. The face looks almost like a Michael Myers mask and he's missing the top part of his hat. The intricate cuts look like they were quite a struggle for the maker too. I asked the seller if the graphics and lettering were stuck on and he said he couldn't tell. Definitely appears as if they are.

Yep I agree.

Looks like this one was crafted by either Tim Carroll or Ben Caraher.

I didn't know they were doing pennants now! :rolleyes:

Received the "pennant". Total fugazi. Can tell within 0.5 seconds upon seeing it in person. Graphics are cut out and glued on, also they are painted by hand to match. Looks very sloppy up close. You can see pencil marks where the cutting was not precise, and the cuts are in small straight lines as if an exacto knife was used. Keeping it in the pennant holder for the pics was a shrewd move by the seller.

Anyway, seller refuses to accept return, says this is my "opinion", insists it is authentic, and tried to educate me on pennants. He even sent me a link to KB's weebly blog (which allowed me to tell him that my pictures are actually used on the site). Anyway I had to report him to eBay, they should protect me for this. Hopefully they do something about the seller who will almost certainly pass this along to someone else.

What a piece of sh*t seller. Ebay will inevitably rule in your favor, but it will take a few days before they can render a judgement and refund your money.

Sorry you have to go through the ordeal... but no worries, you'll be covered.

Thanks Mark. Get a load of his reply to eBay for my refund request. Even says I might be right that it is homemade but sent them a link to KBs blog. What a bad dude.

It gets worse! (I sent the seller and eBay a link to this thread.)

I originally thought the guy just didn't know any better. Now he seems like a scumbag. I asked if the graphics were glued on and he said he checked them and they weren't. He must not have checked them very thoroughly.

Especially funny that he is trying to explain the history of pennants to someone in Manila who doesn't even read the messages and is simply following a script that ends with "process refund".

There’s a reason he kept it in the holder for the pictures ... and he is basically conceding that it is homemade. I’m just embarrassed that I fell for it. I am the Manti Teo of pennant collectors. Am I still allowed to post here or do I get banished for being such a dope?

His closing argument is that having an old hand-made pennant is more desirable than a manufactured one. :confused:

What a fool. Does he also think reprints are better than original cards? Or that Type 4 Photos are superior to Type 1? Or perhaps a traced autograph is more desirable than an original. Who is this seller, anyway.... the Acofind guy?

Let's all trace the Honus Wagner Card, color it in, and make millions. And you won't even need to stay within the lines! :D

Well you did get "catfished" on this one... But we've probably all been burned to some extent (at some point in time). This one is just a bit more egregious. Rather than a complete net54 banishment, perhaps a week off is appropriate, since he concealed it beneath the toploader. ;)

At the risk of dating myself, it reminds me of those Colorforms cut-outs that were popular in the 1960s.

Sorry, Greg. I'm sure it will all work out in the end. Clear fake.

Maybe post a nice pic of the horror show face for us so we can see it up close.

I already packed it away, expecting to mail it back. But he’s not budging so I have to go through eBay protection. This guy has no shame ... he now admits that it is handmade but says that’s different from *homemade*. LOL. He’s hanging his hat on something from KB’s blog about the very first ever pennants being handmade. What a piece of excrement. He knows it’s a fake.

Unfortunately for him the very first pennants weren’t made in 1962.

EXACTLY! Yes, the very first pennants ever made likely came from mom's sewing machine ... but that was in 1904, before felt novelty pennants were commercially available in every college town! This pennant is in an entirely different league being a) screen printed; b) for a professional sports team; and c) made in the 1960s. Any suggestion that my BLOG supports his notion that it was commonplace for such a contemporary pennant to be homemade--and using vinyl lettering no less--is laughable.

Nobody would do that in 1962 ... not for a $0.50 souvenir!

The only person that would spend the type of time and money it took to re-create this is someone who understands the contemporary value of that pennant today, which I suppose is closer to ... $500? Which means it was likely made last month...

I'm sorry Greg. Send me a PM with the seller's contact and I'll be glad to challenge him on any of this if you think it'd help resolve this sooner.

Closure ... so eBay notified me that I was entitled to a refund and told me to return. About as clear-cut of a fake memorabilia case as you’d find. Special thanks to KB for helping. The seller then sent me this, apparently his feelings were hurt. Awww..... don’t try to pull a fast one on your buyers in the first place and you won’t be called out for it. He never did acknowledge the voided sale to Rob just minutes before my purchase. I don’t believe for a second he didn’t exactly know what he was doing.

As a side note, in 20+ years of buying this is the first such experience with a shady seller. I’ve been lucky.

If you don't want your feelings to be hurt, do not rip people off. He should seriously apply for a position with PSA.

Glad you got your refund quickly. His preaching to you about the legitimacy of a vintage pennant was akin to Mr. Magoo telling Mario Andretti how to drive.

Our buddy just sold a Packers pennant ... at least he’s pleading ignorance in his description ... but look at the spine on this one. Yikes! (Otherwise looks original but who knows.)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Green-Bay-P...p&LH_Auction=1

EDIT: This is also full-blown fake. Look around the edges of the letters and graphic. Looks like they have been cut out and pasted. So he knows but covers his tracks by saying “it could be homemade”. Posted it cheap, someone bought it right away probably without reading carefully. No doubt he’ll fight the buyer if he is unhappy.

(Oh and he offered this to me after I bought the fake Texans pennant ... for $175.)

I was going to say much better job on the Packers, but looking closely it looks like the letters are held on with clear tape? The football player and lettering are much better than the Texans effort.

EDIT: I see what he did...The graphic and lettering were printed on green material that matches the color of the "felt" (?) used for the pennant. That way the rough cut isn't nearly as noticeable.

Still, lots of time and effort spent for a measly $35 bucks. :confused:

“So it’s possible that this was homemade ...”

Phantom pennants
 

I picked up this 1965 Giants NL Champs phantom pennant from Fballguy recently. I have seen many damaged copies of this pennant (especially to the bottom corner) and am excited to have this nice copy.

I'm curious to see other phantom pennants from your collections and to hear any interesting details about the pennant or team.

I've always liked this Giants pennant because it is one of the few (only?) Giants items related to Warren Spahn's brief time with the team. 1965 is also the year that Juan Marichal went after John Roseboro with a bat after Roseboro intentionally threw the ball inches away from Marichal's face. My dad always told me that this incident (and Marichal being suspended) cost the Giants the pennant, but I think the Dodgers won something like 14 of their lat 15 games, which probably had more to do with it.

The pennant is also fun because of the misspelling of Willie McCovey's (McCOVERY) name and it includes a good number of HOFers (Mays, Cepeda, Perry, Marichal, Spahn, McCovey). It also includes Masanori Murakami, recognized as the first player from Japan to play in the MLB.

Maybe, just maybe a father made one for his son back in the day when the could find one to buy

I agree with a week off. After all, we "pennant guys" have standards to uphold! ;)

+1 for Fballguy. I'm very pleased with the 2 that I bought.

Thank you. Happy to hear that!

Okay my week suspension for being a catfished dumba$$ is over, here’s a new pickup of a Keezer Philadelphia A’s ... more commonly found on blue felt. Keezer typically stuck to one color for each team, exceptions of which I am aware include Pirates and Red Sox.

I like it!

My two pennants from Fballguy arrived yesterday. Very excited about them, especially the 1976 WS pennant. Already posted these in November Pickups. Along with the two I picked up from PerezFan, they'll make for a nice little collection along the top of the wall.

!
 

Nice pickup Greg...

It looks great in red, and isn't this one usually found in 3/4 size as well? Never seen a red full sized one... congrats!

Glad you like them Tim!

Another group found in the Philly area including the second New home of dodgers in the past weeks

On ebay? :confused:

???? What does this mean exactly? A big find?

Well if you’re gonna complete an AFL set, all roads run through Dallas. And I had to fill the void left from that homemade disaster. (Finally got refund.) Next up: Titans. With school moved back to online and winter break in two weeks, and also being semi-quarantined, will soon be resuming my photo inventory ...

Nice, Greg.

That dark blue felt on the Oilers pennant is so clear when you have the light and the dark next to each other. I need to find one of those.

You definitely found the best one possible. I've been after that pennant for about a decade, with no luck whatsoever.

Congrats on snagging a rare beauty!

Here's a few pennant related pictures I've found/saved recently.

Young bocca? :p

Odd that a Bay Area fan would also have a pennant of the arch rival Chiefs.

...well, at least the Raiders are on top!

You reproduced that one, right?

Thanks Mark! Gotta start putting some football on the walls ....

The Bills and Oilers were sold together, I got the first one but our buddy in San Antonio grabbed the other one, so I let him turn a profit on me so that I could have the pair. The colors are really vivid. Almost unnaturally so (but they are legit). I don’t know much about the Raiders pennant, it’s an odd graphic, but I see the other one more often.

Quick, someone tell that young lady that she has over a grand hanging on her bedroom wall ...

Ha! That kid is not me (I think it is a girl... maybe). Kind of nice that the picture has a date on it. I was -2.5 in Dec 1970. You'd think that there would be a 49ers pennant on the wall, not a Chiefs pennant. The Raiders pennant was the best long-term investment. Funny how, out of a group of pennants from the same era and general location, one can be so much more valuable than the others.

Great bunch of AFL pennants Greg. The Raiders in your pic is definitely a rare and desirable one. But, I've never seen one up close and I've never been able to figure out what the graphic is supposed to be. Is it a QB throwing while being chased by a defender? A receiver catching?

As for the polaroid pic...Interesting to me the Raiders is included with a group of later pennants. That Raiders is nearly always attributed to the early 60s...but It seems odd to me a young girl would have a 10 year old pennant on the wall. I suspect they made that pennant throughout the 60s. I have one that is soft felt, but I also owned one years ago that was the stiffer late 60s/early 70s material. The stiffer one had the brittle, stiff tassels that fall apart too.

The Raiders have always been a weak spot in my collection. Their pennants are typically very expensive but they're so rare and Raider fans are so rabid, they have no problem paying when they do turn up. But over the last couple of months, I've made some nice new additions. I'll try to get a picture up later today.