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It obvious from your response that you did not read the reference, http://poynton.ca/ColorFAQ.html, which primarily concerns reconciling the difference with digital images. Had you done so, you would have recognized that a pool of pictures being sought does not produce research that is unreliable, random, or invalid. In fact, it provides guidance for taking random pictures and modifying to a standard normal for computer use. Regardless of the pool of pictures we obtain, all can be adjusted to the same color standards we set for Bond Bread and Sport Star Subject cards. From Ted we have original Bond Bread inserts and I have some of the Subjects cards, on which to establish such standards. It is a complex and detailed process I am not yet willing to do unless I have enough pictures to apply it to. I see you have apparently lost interest in finding out just what is actually a Bond Bread or a Sport Star Subjects card. For some reason you chose to delete most of the content of your postings in this thread prior to the one quoted above. It seems you did not like the direction I was going in pointing that high grade cards of the lookalike Bond Bread and Sport Star Subjects sets primarily come from Sport Star Subjects sets. Obviously you do not agree that placing a single card inside a bread package to be handled as it will by the recipient will cause cards to have more wear than those being placed in a protective box from which one did not have to take any cards out. I also noticed that on 05-29-2020 you started a Post, which you have now changed the title to “no longer for sale -- 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread SGC 7.5 Jackie Robinson RC.” There, you were offering an SCG graded 86 NM+ card that SCG had labeled as a “1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson” for over $3,500. I am duplicating your pictures from your thread below. https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1590772635 https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1590772654 If you are really interested in knowing whether your card is accurately authenticated by SCG, then asked them how they know its not a Sport Star Subject set card. The rest of us would like to know the answer. Do you? I'm sorry I have not been fully disclosing all of the information I have. I first wanted to address the compelling questions raised for years in this thread that may cause some to misinterpret the facts I have uncovered. For example, in the scan of the back of the SCG card above, the lower right corner of the picture shows the round die-cut ending but with the remaining bottom end of the card not in direct alignment with that die cut. The cards from a stack of sheets were first cut with a straight knife blade to make stacks of individual cards. Then two adjoining sides of a stack of card were die-cut, then the cards rotated 180 degrees to die-cut the other two sides. The opposite corners of a card were cut by the same die-cutter. While parts of the opposite corners show cuts from part of the same die-cutter, they are usually not an exact match. I have several examples of such die-cutting. The cards were printed on sheets with no space between cards. Even today, straight-edge cutting of cards is not an exact science. Otherwise, “centering” would be of no concern. I will be providing in my article detailed information about the die-cutting, including pictures of the cuts different die-cutters used so you see which your card matches up with. Griffon512, I own copyrights. I appreciate your attempt at humor in the “copyright” notice you added at the end of your post. I understand for a Copyright to be valid, it must say “copyright” or have the © symbol, the date, and the name and address of the copyright holder. I don't think yours meets that test. Even if it did, the fair comment I've made above about your post would be protected from copyright infringement. I make no claim to the intellectual property of anyone else. Be well, Mike Copyright 2020 by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521 |
1. No I did not delete most of the comments of the posts I've made in this thread. I've added some content to my comments so they will show up as edits but feel free to log every single edit I've made if you are able to see that. Not sure where you are going with that insinuation but whatever.
2. My Homogenized Bread Jackie was sold so it is no longer available. Masterful sleuthing. What that means is even if someone were to want to insinuate that I'm talking my cards up there is no basis for it. I don't have any Homogenized Bread Cards, Sports Star Subject cards, Festberg cards, etc. I'm guessing you have a number of Festberg cards or other cards like them, but I will not questions your biases. Again, you are confusing indifference with an obvious bridge to nowhere or a likely blanket of erroneous information presented as fact. I do care that people are not completely misled by pseudo-research that a junior high schooler could gather presented as substantive information, and that is my only compelling interest in responding to this dead-end (or worse) thread. Ted took the right approach in not responding anymore when pushing on a string, and I will too. 3. Your point about copyright law is wrong and some lawyers on this thread can correct you, but I can't blame them for not participating. I'm sure we're all waiting with baited breadth for the article! |
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It's true, I've posted little on the 13 cards of the Bond Bread special Jackie Robinson set. member Charleybrown has been researching that issue far beyond belief for years and has posted extensive, useful information in the thread entitled, " OT: Revisiting the D302 Jackie Robinson Bond Bread Release Date " and elsewhere. In one of his July 2020 posts, Charleybrown indicated he was going to write a more detailed article fully exploring those cards. You should look forward to reading it as I do once it gets published. He has broken a lot of myths about those cards, even those that have existed for over 60 years. The hardest ones of those myths are the dates that each of the individual cards were issued. He has conclusively proven, including from the 1946-1949 dates of the original, underlying wire service photos used to create the Robinson pictures on the cards, that not all were issued in 1947. Rather, they were issued from 1947 through 1949. Other than my little reference to those Robinson cards (such as in Post #290 on 07-03-2020), I would be redundant to attempt to add anything to Chareybrown's outstanding efforts. I will say, the grading card companies appear to be ignoring reality and are still dating all of these 13 cards on their labels as 1947. That's very misleading for those seeking only "rookie" cards. GeoPoto, distinguishing Bond Bread cards from other lookalikes is not an endless process. I've only been at it for a little more than 3 months. Already, we have found the pictures used in the Bond Bread insert set come from ACME Newspictures Service. That also establishes that the Team Photo Packs sold in ballparks (that contained some of those photos) were made up of pictures from ACME. We've found that cards generally attributed as "Bond Bread perforated dual sided cards" are actually an Elgee Product, not associated with Bond Bread. We date the release date to 1947-48 because a few of the pictures of action shots of Cowboys in the set come from the movie "Red River," which though filmed in 1946, was released in 1948. ACME distributed movie studio pictures to more than 900 clients including over 700 newspaper groups. Since all of the rest of the Cowboy photos come from Cowboy movies released in 1947 or before, it is possible that "Red River" did release movie shots for advance publicity in 1947. If so, that would put the set as a 1947 set and not a 1947-48 one. We've found that the 1947 Bond Bread insert cards, and the round and square corner cards of the Sport Star Subject sets and the Screen Star Subject sets were manufactured by the Meyercord Co. of Chicago. You fear the distinction between the Bond Bread inserts and the rounded-corner Sport Star Subject cards may take forever to resolve. Actually, we're not far off from that. While it is a complex issue, as time permits to do so, an extrapolation of the digital image information in http://poynton.ca/ColorFAQ.html will answer your question. That should satisfy your concerns about the provenance of cards posted. We tried to make the distinction another way -- by comparing the wear on individual die-cuts used for the photos on Bond Bread cards and Sports Star Subjects cards. That would have been very easy if Ted had provided a uniform scan of each of his proven original Bond Bread card to use for comparison. He refused. We also established as untrue the opinion that the Festberg remainders were reprints made in the 1980's. Our ultraviolet light test proved they were printed on cardstock made before 1951. We've also shown the fallacy of attempting to distinguish cards by how close one part of an image is to the edge vs. the closeness of the image to an edge of another card. That issue arose because people forgot to apply their knowledge about cards in general. The uncut cards in the sheets of Bond Bread and Sport Star Subjects had no space between each other and would trim just like any other cards, often with a little shift to the left or right, or up or down. We all see what happens during such shifts, and its called "centering," an issue that still plagues the hobby today. Don't give up! We're working on it and have gone a long way in less than 3½ months. Post your pictures of the backs of Bond Bread and Sport Star Subjects cards, and please continue making comments. It all helps us focus on the actual issues troubling our readers. Stay healthy, Mike Copyright 2020 by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521 |
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"Form of Copyright Notice There are relatively strict technical requirements as to what a copyright notice must contain if it is to serve its purpose of preventing people from claiming in court that they were "innocent-infringers." A valid copyright notice contains three elements: * the copyright symbol ©, or the words "Copyright" or "Copr." * if website is published, the year of publication, and * the name of the copyright owner. It is not required that these elements appear in any particular order in the notice, but most notices are written in the order set forth above. The purpose is to give unequivocal notice of the copyright protection, so that the would-be thief cannot claim as a defense that he or she did not know about the protection." The Nolo Press webpage from which the above comes is: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...%20%22Copr.%22. Stay healthy, Mike P.S. I received my Doctor of Jurisprudence degree in 1997 at age 52. Copyright 2020 by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521 |
Interesting. What did these sell for in the early &0s? Seems like a lot of trouble to find old paper to reprint these Bond Bread cards. And we find some of the movie star cards suspicious too?
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Long term collectors have always been suspicious of the Festberg set and they put no value to it. In 2009, Post #49 above noted that a complete Festberg set of 24 sold at auction for $102. Another responded that he saw the auction but didn't think anything of it, but had he known it was only $102 he would have bid. Today, Festberg sets are seen offered on eBay as "Bond Bread" sets generally for around $500 to $1,000, though some have sold for as little as $250 while others over $1,000. Again, these are all usually described as "Bond Bread" sets. A Jackie Robinson card from the Festberg remainders, if offered in a slab of a card grading service that identifies it as a "Bond Bread" card, have sold for over $1,000. Generally, though, an ungraded Robinson from the Festberg remainders can be picked up for $50 to $100. In my Post #203 OF 05-10-2020 above, I pictured four of the Festberg remainder cards I had asked SCG to grade shortly after I have received it. Three cards were slabbed and labeled as "1947 Homogenized Bond Bread" cards. SCG would not grade the fourth card, the Jackie Robinson, saying it had been trimmed. Unwittingly, SCG may have given us an answer to the cause of the brown toning on those cards. Many are likewise "trimmed." If you look at the edges of some of them, you can see a heavy dark brown mold much deeper in color than the more uniform brown toning on the back. The set was highly promoted in the 1980's and apparently the over 3,000 sets found sold out. It is not unreasonable to assume that the more severely damaged cards of the find had their edges trimmed to remove the more obvious mold when the supply of sets decreased. The unanswered question not yet addressed in this thread is what effect did that brown mold have on the cardstock of the Festberg cards. People have been just looking at them as a toned something and assumed they were always thinner than Bond Bread and Sport Star Subjects cards. In May 2016, Kevin O'Gara asked what are real Bond Bread cards worth. Leon replied in June, "Generally speaking it's not an expensive set relative to others." From the information Griffon512 has recently provided, the Jackie Robinson round corner card he was offering at over $3,500 has been sold. The card had been identified by SCG as a "Bond Bread" card and given a high grade. It will remain difficult to say what are realistic prices for actual 1947 Bond Bread package inserts until clear guidelines distinguishing them from round-corner Sport Star Subject cards are generally acceptable. There is little question today that anyone would damage a high-grade round-corner Sports Star Subject card so that it would appear to have the wear and tear s) would have. Recently, a dealer on eBay offered 9 separate auction lots of individual Bond Bread cards with a starting bid of 99¢. While only in "average" condition (cards not especially cared for over the years), only one had a crease. I was the only bidder on 8 of the lots. The ninth I won at a one bid raise over $5. So what are Bond Bread inserts worth? Also on eBay is a dealer offering a complete set of Screen Star Subjects cards at $249.95. I arrived here at this thread a few months ago looking for information on what I thought were Bond Bread cards. My eyes glossed over trying to understand the so many different sets the thread had virtually passed on by mere reference. I do understand Ted's concerns. The world was trying to tell him that the actual cards of his childhood memories were something they were not. Looking at the subject with "fresh eyes," I saw that while these many "imposters" (impostors) were a challenge to Ted, they too were also ignored. The bulk of the cards were not widely known in collector circles, and where known, more often than not, little of anything else about was known. Clutch-Hitter, I'm not sure I'm going in the direction you sought. Like most of us, you probably have seen your fill of modern cards and their manufacturer created limited print "rarities." Hundreds of millions of Bond Bread cards were inserted into bread packages. Where are they? It is virtually impossible to complete a set in average condition, but you can complete a set of what are called "Bond Bread" cards in near mint or better condition. I'm sure that Charleybrown has spent many enjoyable years just trying to gather sufficient information to accurately date and describe the 13 cards of the Bond Bread special Jackie Robinson set. And that's what it's all about, learning new things and having fun. My 1988 1st edition of the Standard Catalog puts the special 13 card Jackie Robinson set at $3,150 NM, with all of the individual cards at $250 NM each, except the Robinson Portrait Card (with facsimile autograph), which it values at $150 NM. Today, you couldn't touch a single NM card of the set for the 1988 price of the complete set (and probably could not find a complete in that condition offered for sale back then). The 1988 Standard Catalog does not mention Bond Bread package insert cards. What has caused much dispute recently in this thread is a set of cards called Bond Bread cards in high grade that was sold along with a complete set of the four Sport Star Subjects boxes in May 2020 on eBay for over $4,500. Many old-timers believe the cards to be genuine 1947 Bond Bread cards with the Sport Star Subject Boxes an add-on. Others, like myself, believe the cards are from those Sport Star Subject boxes. It has yet to be explained why so many cards have turned up in recent years in high grade that are called "Bond Bread" cards, when the actual package insert cards old-timers acquired back then are not now in the same high condition? Would the actual population of high grade cards make a true 1947 Bond Bread insert graded 7 more valuable than a Sport Star Subjects card graded 7.5, 8 or 9? I looked in some old 1990 Sport Collector Digest (SCD) and other 1990 card newspapers I have and could find no ads (not even classified ones) mentioning Bond Bread insert cards. New issues were the big thing. PSA's website shows they have graded some 52,816 1985 Topps #401 Mark McGwire Olympic "Rookie" cards with 42,426 of them at PSA 8 or better. In 1990, the McGwires in PSA 8 were being sold above $200 and touted as investments. Today, PSA's on-line price guide puts that PSA 8 McGwire at $15. But a lot of people had a lot of fun in the late 1980's just trying to find one. Sport Star Subjects cards will never see such a dramatic shift in price. But that is the fear many have if their cards are not identified as Bond Bread inserts. Sport Star Subjects cards are highly collectible and in short supply. While most do not believe they were issued before 1948-49, some inconclusive evidence suggests otherwise. The very nature of card collecting, where more people seek individual cards than try to complete sets, underlies an investment demand that drives a large part of the card business. This past week, I looked through several cardboard boxes containing some of the sorted plastic card boxes of non-sports cards I've had in storage since 1990. One of them contained 65 different cards from the 50 card Jack Rose Little Cigar back subset of the T59 American Tobacco Company "Flags of All Nations" set (a complete set with all front and back variations totals over 7,500). There are 4 Jack Rose back varieties for each of the 50 front designs or 200 cards in that subset. That's more different cards of any of the T59 subsets I have. With about a third of the Jack Rose subset, I thought should I complete it and work on the rest of the set? I put the plastic box back in order in the cardboard box and said to myself, "No." Since my interests in the Bond Bread like and related cards went beyond the 1947 Bond Bread inserts, I would have enough to do addressing the more than a couple of dozen of its lookalike and related sets. That was consistent with my efforts to reconstruct the Elgee perforated dual-sided sheets, the cards ow which are routinely mislabeled as "Bond Bread" cards. Clutch-Hitter, if you are a serious collector looking for something impossible to collect, try starting and putting together the 48 card set of "Page's Pittsburgh Milk Co. cards." These are identical to the Bond Bread package inserts, with “rounded” corners, but are rubberstamped on the back in either purple or black ink: “PAGE'S / PITTSBURGH MILK CO. / The Sweetest Milk Ever Sold”. Some have discounted the "Page's Milk" set as merely remainders of Bond Bread cards. It's true, Page's Milk did obtain remainders after the Bond Bread promotion was over. Page's Milk believed in extensive promotion of its products and its home-delivery service. When Page's Milk cards were brought up in this thread years ago, a responder was misunderstood when pointing out the intensity of Page's Milk promotional capabilities and the extent it went to to promote its name. Page's milk had a long run radio show widely broadcast. A singer on that radio show named Patti was always introduced as Patti "Page" (the Page's Milk singer). She adopted that name for use throughout her long and famous career that followed. But that does not end the story of the Page's Milk cards. In 1949, Page's Milk made an extensive card promotion all their own. Page's Milk especially distinguishing their overprinted cards from the old Bond Bread ones. Like many milk companies across the United States, Page's Milk was regularly home-delivered. It was to that large milk buying market that Page's applied its cards. Below is a scan of a Page's Milk offer that uses its overprinted cards to keep home-delivery customers coming back for more and a scan of the back of a card with Page's overprint. http://i.imgur.com/KlMyyyC.jpg?1 http://i.imgur.com/pDBJa2X.jpg?1 Or you might try something even more difficult. Work on the London Dry London Dry Beverages (including gin) cards. Those few known have identical pictures to Bond Bread package inserts, except have “square” corners. They are rubberstamped on the back: “Compliments of / LONDON DRY / TRADE MARK REGISTERED / The Topper of all Drinks (with logo in between) / BEVERAGES.” Very little is known about the London Dry cards except that in the late 1940s, some were released in New York City (the same city where the Festberg remainders were found 20 years later). It will be difficult to find one, but once you find the right track, it will lead you to more. (And keep me in mind if you find any duplicates.) http://i.imgur.com/pWcUtfh.jpg?1 I may be have been rambling on too long. So, be well, Mike Copyright 2020 by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 26521, Oakland, California 94602-0521 |
I just found this in Post 1 of a 01-22-2002 thread entitled "Festberg Warning." I would post a direct link to that thread if I knew how to do so.
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On 01-31-2002, Post 12 reads: Quote:
Relevant paragraph from the 01-22-1993 Sports Collectors Digest article on the Festberg remainders (posted a few years ago in this thread): http://i.imgur.com/iv00Ti6.jpg?1 |
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1949 LEAF Jackie Robinson
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Sorry to correct you, Dan. The LEAF BB cards were issued in 1949. I'm not faulting you (or others on this forum), who refer to this set of BB cards as 1948. The fault is with PSA, who has perpetuated this myth. Quote:
TED Z T206 Reference . |
I take it that you're implying something from this quote:
"...the London Dry London Dry Beverages (including gin) cards. Those few known have identical pictures to Bond Bread package inserts, except have “square” corners. They are rubberstamped on the back: “Compliments of / LONDON DRY / TRADE MARK REGISTERED / The Topper of all Drinks (with logo in between) / BEVERAGES.” Very little is known about the London Dry cards except that in the late 1940s, some were released in New York City (the same city where the Festberg remainders were found 20 years later). It will be difficult to find one, but once you find the right track, it will lead you to more." Are you implying that maybe the Festberg cards were actually London Dry Beverage Card leftovers that never got rubber-stamped? I couldn't find the checklist for the London Dry cards, so I can't tell if that's even a possibility. |
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GasHouseGang, You're just like me. I been searching for a long time for a checklist on the internet. I can't find one either. It's almost impossible to find any references to the cards. I did find a couple of wantlists that included the London set but no specific players were mentioned. I've also only found three pictures of different cards (Bob Feller, Stan Musial and Ralph Kiner) and no others. The pictures on those cards are identical to the player pictures on Bond Bread cards. These three are the few I was able to find. If anyone knows of any others, let us know. A couple of months ago while using a friend's computer, I found an unidentified magazine page on-line with a large ad for London Dry Beverages. The page had a 1949 date and the ad indicated a non-specific sports card was available at bars and restaurants. Printed at the bottom of the ad was "London Dry / New York City." I could neither copy, print, download or otherwise transmit a copy of the ad from its webpage. I had always associated "London Dry" with gin so assumed the advertiser was a gin distiller. To respond to your inquiry, I started a search for the ad so I could post it in reply. Along the way I found out that "London Dry" is not a brand name for a gin, but a generic name for a particular process of distilling gin. M any brands of gin include "London Dry" in their product name. So I then thought, how could the card say that "London Dry" was its registered trademark? I searched the website of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) and found many companies have limited trademark rights to the words, "London Gin." Along the way, I found the following picture of a wooden crate using the same typeface for "London Dry" and artwork used on the cards. http://i.imgur.com/2Uvdjs0.jpg?1 This led me to the following from the USPTO: https://i.imgur.com/gZcFfjU.jpg?1 It's a 1960 trademark renewal of one first granted first issued in January 1938 to London Dry Ginger Ale Co. of Wilmington, Delaware, for use with Carbonated Beverages sold as Soft Drinks and for use as Mixers. I had associated "London Dry" with gin and that is exactly what London Dry wanted me to do. They're not a gin maker, but the maker of the various mixer that can go into it. Now to your real question. Earlier today I suggested above how it might be interesting to try to do what seemed impossible - - to collect London Dry cards. While writing that, I realized that London Dry cards and Festberg remainders were both in New York City, both were about the same size, both had square corners, and the three players I knew of on London Dry cards were the same as pictured on the Festberg remainders. So I swung at the ball with the information about both being in New York City. It wasn't actually an implication. I thought I had only popped up the ball so we could see where it landed. And GasHouseGang, you sure caught it. * * * * * Regardless, we can all dream of finding that old restaurant or bar, perhaps in New York, that still may have a London Dry card or two stuck in the back of an old drawer and hasn't been touched for years. Stay healthy, Mike Copyright 2020 by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521 |
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I thought there was some debate as to the exact release date of the 48/49 Leaf product. Not arguing your point, there may be evidence it was never released in 1948. The larger point I was making is that the white bordered portrait w/ facsimile autograph was released a year or more before the Leaf card, which would probably be closer to a year and half if Leaf cards weren’t released until 1949. |
1949 LEAF cards
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There is NO debate amongst veteran hobbyist regarding the 1949 LEAF BB set's issue date. There is evidence that the 1949 LEAF BB cards were NEVER issued in 1948. Before I present it, here....I collected these LEAF cards in my youth. I clearly recall that they were first available in early Spring of 1949 (coincident with the start of the BB season). Old-timers in this hobby (who also collected these cards in their youth) totally agree that these LEAF cards were not available in 1948. We were still collecting LEAF FB and Boxing cards in 1948. Here is the evidence printed in the bio of the Lou Boudreau card...... http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...oudreau25x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...udreau25xb.jpg Lou Boudreau's MVP Award was announced in mid December of 1948. Here is an uncut sheet of the 1st Series cards issued in early Spring of 1949. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Series1x50.jpg Furthermore, check-out my 8-page story on the 1949 LEAF set in the OLD CARBOARD Magazine (Issue #9). You'll find it very informative and very interesting.....http://oldcardboard.com/misc/issue09/issue09.asp. TED Z T206 Reference . |
FURTHERMORE....regarding 1949 LEAF BB cards......
Just to show you guys how absolutely IGNORANT both PSA and SGC are regarding the 1949 LEAF set, take a close look at the date on the flips of these graded
1949 LEAF HOFer Premiums. WOW ! they are identified as.....1949 ! ! Ten HOFer Premiums were available at our corner candy stores. Each 24-count waxpack box contained one Premium inside the bottom of the box. Sometimes, a generous store manager would reward a kid with a HOFer Premium, when that kid purchased the very last waxpack (or waxpacks) in a given box. Kids would usually acquire a Premium by giving the store manager ten LEAF wrappers and requesting a certain HOFer. Obviously, both PSA and SGC absolutely contradict themselves by having these Premiums dated 1949, but have the LEAF BB cards dated 1948. And, there is no hope that PSA, nor SGC, will ever correct the date on their graded LEAF cards to reflect the true date of 1949. Here are 2 of my HOFer Premiums.....Babe Ruth and the Lou Gehrig. https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...BabeRuth50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ouGehrig25.jpg HOFer Premiums Checklist Babe Ruth (light background, no text) Babe Ruth (blue background, no text) Babe Ruth (dark background, text) Grover Cleveland Alexander Mickey Cochrane Lou Gehrig Walter Johnson Christy Mathewson John McGraw Ed Walsh TED Z T206 Reference . |
That's good information Ted. I always assumed that the kids had to send away for those premiums. I didn't realize they were actually in the box with the cards.
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I believe that those who continue to foist the misidentification of cards upon the unsuspecting have no interest in being honest, especially when it affects their pocketbooks. Card grading services know they generate a significant portion of their revenue from identifying cards people believe are "rookie" cards. Many dealers take advantage of this, especially with higher priced cards, because they can say its a genuine card authenticated by such-and-such grading company. Over a month ago, I contacted PSA about helping them resolve the issues of incorrectly attributing cards as "Bond Bread" ones. I even proposed simple solutions to make correct attributions that did not require them to recall their slabs with wrong identifications. Simply put, first start identifying the cards correctly. They already have population reports, price guides, set registry reports and a myriad of other information on their website about these misidentified cards. They can change the title of those sections to the correct identification AND include a note in each of the corrected sections saying something like, "Information we have obtained tells us that those cards previous labeled as "Bond Bread ****" should be correctly attributed as a card belonging to this set. They are not "Bond Bread *****' cards." The links that were titled with the old "Bond Bread ***** information should not be renamed, but when clicked should jump to the webpage with the correct identification. Of course, just like any other listing, new links with the correct name will have to be included where appropriate. I even suggested ways to relabel the old slabs if the owner wanted them relabeled. That may not remove many of the misidentified cards from the market place, but it's a start. Hopefully, the new information on the website will give some concern to those who may want to pass off the misidentified cards. At least new slabs misidentifying cards as "Bond Bread" will no longer appear. Mike P.S. Can you guess what was PSA's response? Copyright 2020, b Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521 |
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Corporate Artists at http://www.corporateartists.com/patti_page.html (accessed 08-27-2020) states about Patti Page: "Born Clara Ann Fowler in Claremore, Oklahoma, one of her earliest recollections is walking barefoot to school and saving her one pair of shoes for Sunday dress-up. With a unique talent and sheer perseverance she has become a sophisticated and sensitive performer with a solid career spanning nightclubs, concert halls, the musical comedy stage, motion pictures, radio and television. "With a scholarship in the art department at Tulsa University in the offing, Clara Ann thought the promise of a job in the art department of KTUL in Tulsa seemed more practical than four years of study. At the time, KTUL had a fifteen minute sustaining program sponsored by the local Page Milk Company called "Meet Patti Page." When the regular girl who performed as the fictitious "Patti Page" left the program, Clara Ann put her natural singing talents to work and got the job... and with it a new name. Soon she was starring on several shows on KTUL. "In 1946, Patti sought greener pastures in Chicago working many dubs and small theaters. Several appearances on ABC Radio's popular network show, "Breakfast Club," hosted by Don McNeil led to Patti securing a program of her own on the CBS Radio Network." Copyright 2020 by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521 |
1949 LEAF cards
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David M (GasHouseGang) The LEAF album and the Pennants were obtained by mailing in LEAF wrappers. Read all about it in my 8-page story on the 1949 LEAF set in the OLD CARBOARD Magazine (Issue #9). You will find it very informative and very interesting.....http://oldcardboard.com/misc/issue09/issue09.asp. Here is my other Babe Ruth Premium. I'm still looking for the blue background version (it is a tough one). http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Hcaption18.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
Jackie Robinson Bond Bread Facsimile Signature
I apologize in advance for asking a question that might be addressed somewhere in prior discussions, but could Ted Z. (or anybody else) confirm that there are 2 different Jackie Robinson Portrait Facsimile Signature Bond Bread cards:
(1) a Bond Bread JR card (Portrait Facsimile Signature) with rounded corners like the others in the Bond Bread set; and (2) a Bond Bread Jackie Robinson set Portrait Facsimile Signature card with white borders and square corners like the other cards in the Bond Bread Jackie Robinson set. And that the former (1) was issued earliest (as part of the Bond Bread Set) and the latter (2) was subsequently issued as the first card in the Bond Bread Jackie Robinson Set. Do I have it right? Thanks for any response. |
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I don't understand why people keep blaming the grading companies for having the year wrong on the Leaf cards.
They were referred to as 1948 Leaf long before the grading companies existed. PSA won't grade any card that isn't cataloged and they refer to the catalogs for the year of issue. What are they supposed to do with the thousands that are already graded as 1948? : What types of cards and tickets does PSA authenticate/grade? A: PSA will grade most items that are cataloged in major publications including, but not limited to, the Sports Market Report (SMR) and the Standard Catalog by Krause. PSA also grades major sporting event tickets such as those from the MLB regular season, All-Star games, Playoffs, World Series, NFL regular season, Super Bowl, NBA regular season, NCAA Finals, etc. Since entertainment tickets are serviced on a case-by-case basis, please contact Customer Service to confirm if we can grade the item you wish to submit. We will not grade high school tickets, audit or gate stubs, fan tickets issued after the event, or Ticketmaster-issued sporting event tickets. Back to list Some of the standard catalogs still list them as 1948 in their index this is the 2016 edition Attachment 415814 Attachment 415815 |
1949 LEAF set
Jim Beckett contacted me in 1997 regarding the 1949 LEAF set. Jim started identifying this set as a 1949 issue in
his 1998 BECKETT Baseball Card Price Guide,. Prior to 1998, Beckett listed this set as a 1948/1949 issue. The STANDARD CATALOG of VINTAGE BASEBALL CARDS (by Bob Lemke) identifies the 1949 LEAF as a 1949 issue. I don't understand what your problem is ? TED Z T206 Reference . |
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http://i.imgur.com/C0p6Nki.jpg?1 http://i.imgur.com/641P2MN.jpg?2 It cannot be said he didn't know about Ted's 2009 research into the Leaf cards. Lemke's blog often talked about Jackie Robinson cards, but he carefully avoided discussing anything about whether the Leaf set was issued in 1948 or 1949. The catalog he edited for years initially called it a 1948-49 set. To see just how far SCD is concerned about Jackie Robinson and the Bond Bread issue, see its August 2, 2020 post at https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ines-1947-set/ Catalogs often contain mistakes which they should correct, but often merely repeat the same wrong information they had been publishing in prior editions. They might modify prices in a listing, but often that is merely a simple percentage of increase or decrease to the value of common cards. They don't want to go the expense of making corrections. Most catalogs have a disclaimer that it's merely a guide and they do not guarantee the accuracy. But you a correct, erroneous catalog information does significantly hurt the hobby. On the other hand, grading card services claim to authenticate cards. Many obscure cards they identify aren't even in a catalog. There is a difference between catalogues that let you know they may contain inaccuracies and companies that claim to be experts. The pictures of the SCD catalogues above were previously posted in another net54baseball thread in January 2017 as part of a tribute to Bob Lemke when he passed on. Copyright 2020, by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521 |
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years now ? For example (off the top of my head), I know for sure that the 2011 edition identifies the cards in this set as an 1949 issue. I've known Bob Lemke since 1981, when he published mine and Ralph Triplette's 1949 BOWMAN article in his Baseball Cards Magazine. An article which enlightened the hobby on the complexity of this BOWMAN set. Subsequently, Bob published 5 more of my articles regarding BOWMAN BB and FB sets (1948 - 1953). So, I don't need you to lecture me regarding Bob Lemke. Bob and I were great friends, who kept in touch with each other for many years. GOD Bless Bob's soul. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...dsMagazine.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ardsMagP52.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
I have not kept my oldest versions of the Standard Catalog but do keep the 2011 issue because it was the last one that included post 80 issues. As Ted mentions it does list it as a 49 issue. My newest Catalog is 2014, which may have been the last print edition, edited by Tom Bartsch. It also lists it as 49
I lost a good friend and and hobby lost a great resource when Bob Lemke passed |
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https://i.imgur.com/MDYLH3o.jpg?1 You're screaming at me when you missed the key point of what was written. If you had looked at my reference to the 2020 SCD article on Bond Bread cards (https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ines-1947-set/), you would have seen an article that started out looking good. But if you had read a little further, you would see it saying Bond Bread insert cards come with both round and square corners. That's not Bob Lemke's public legacy. I'm not lecturing you on Bob Lemke. He did a tremendous amount to preserve and protect the hobby . . . and is missed. I am not diminishing his extensive efforts by pointing out that in a couple of his blogs he asserted that Bond Bread cards were made by AARCO, the playing card company, basing on his assertion that playing cards have round corners and so do Bond Bread package inserts. Did you read the printed text next to the inscription Bob Lemke wrote to Leon on the inside cover page of Lemke's catalog pictured a little above? It says: "To never changed any of his opinions, never correct any of his mistakes: and he who was never wise enough to find mistakes in himself, will not be charitable enough to excuse them in others." -- Anonymous There's a lot of cards out there besides those people associate with Bond Bread. But am I wrong in pointing out that he called the perforated dual sided cards "Bond Bread" and "Hess Shoe" cards when we all have learned they are an Elgee product? Your beef is not with me. The question is, what can we all do together to get the grading card company experts from calling all the lookalikes as Bond Bread cards? Mike |
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You clearly stated 1948, which tells me you don't know what you are talking about ! Bob Lemke and I discussed a lot of BB (and FB) card sets over the years since 1981. Bob agreed with me regarding the 1949 issue date of the Baseball LEAF set, after I pointed out that the Lou Boudreau card stating his MVP award in it's bio. Which occurred in mid-December of 1948. Furthermore, I pointed out that LEAF switched to GRAY cardboard stock in 1949 for all their Sportscards. TED Z T206 Reference . |
Ted, I do not have a beef with you. But have you lately seen what Old Cardboard says about "1947 D305 Bond Bread" cards?
Today the website reads: Set Summary Produced in 1947 by Homogenized Bond Bread Unnumbered, borderless set printed in black and white Facsimile autograph is only labeling on each card front Originally distributed with rounded corners and blank backs Large stash found in 1980's with square corner variations Cards (both rounded & square) often found in high grade Compare Vern Stephens cards for each variation below [showing both round (die-cut) and square corner cards] https://oldcardboard.com/d/d305/d305.asp?cardsetID=1003 If you click on the links on that webpage to the Gallery, you see both round and square corner cards intermittently pictured. And they don't address the question of Sport Star Subjects cards that exist today. |
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The pictures I posted are from my copy of the 2016/17 SCD catalog |
Pat— Have there been editions subsequent to that one ?
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recent edition I could find. |
The first time I was required to either edit a comment or include my name involved a post in pre war opining that Don Fluckinger had messed up the first Standard Catalog he handled after Bob’s retirement 😊
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1949 LEAF set
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Hi Al You and I have the same Standard Catalog editions (2011 and 2014). Here is the Copyright date and the 1949 LEAF listing in the 2011 issue (the 2014 edition is exactly the same....1949 LEAF. https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...right2011x.jpg . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...x1949xLEAF.jpg Furthermore, here is the Beckett 1998 edition, which confirms the information I provided in Post #342 in this thread. https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...yright1998.jpg . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...x1949xLEAF.jpg Quote:
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My question here in this Bond Bread thread is, "What do any of us do about what OldCardboard says about "1947 D305 Bond Bread" cards ( https://oldcardboard.com/d/d305/d305.asp?cardsetID=1003 ) and what Sports Collector's Digest now says in its August 2, 2020 edition about the same cards ( https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ines-1947-set/ )? |
1949 LEAF set
OK guys,
Al Richter and I have provided sufficient evidence with Jim Beckett's and Bob Lemke's BB card publications that confirm the 1949 LEAF date has been listed in their Catalogs as far back as 1998. Furthermore, these publications also confirm the LEAF HOFer Premiums as a 1949 issue even before 1998. And, it was known back then that the LEAF cards and HOFer Premiums were issued in the same vendor boxes. PSA and SGC could have corrected their egregious mistakes at least 22 years ago. Here is my 2005 Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball Cards (by Bob Lemke). https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...yright2005.jpg . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...1949LEAF_1.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
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"The 1948 Leaf Baseball set consists of 98 cards, each 2-3/8" by 2-7/8". Key athletes include Joe DiMaggio (#1), Babe Ruth (#3), and Stan Musial (#4). The set is also anchored by diamond heroes Luke Appling, Larry Doby, Bobby Doerr, Bob Feller, George Kell, Ted Kluszewski, Hal Newhouser, Jackie Robinson, Satchel Paige, Phil Rizzuto, Enos Slaughter, Warren Spahn and Ted Williams, as well an evocative tribute to Honus Wagner (#70). Although only 98 entries were produced for the Leaf set, its cards actual numbers spanned between 1 and 168. The Leaf baseball production was the first major issue of its type to use skip-numbering, wherein the cards' consecutively numbered entries when fully assembled and complete failed to yield a correspondingly complete run of card numbers. Forty-nine cards are considered "Short Prints," including such lesser players as Johnny Wyrostek and Eddie Joost. Among the most desirable pieces is an error card - #102 Gene Hermanski – that exists without the letter "i" in his last name. This card is among the famous and sought-after of all postwar error cards, as are the Full Sleeve (standard) and Short Sleeve (error) versions of Cliff Aberson's card, #136." According to its website, to date, PSA has graded some 25,724 cards as "1948 Leaf," including some 1,362 Jackie Robinson's. You would think that one of the owners of these more than one thousand Jackie Robinson cards would have asked PSA to correctly attribute the card. Or is the apparent failure to ask for a correction more driven by a fear the card may lose value because they are not a "rookie" card? Mike |
Meanwhile the portrait card is catching up to the Leaf card, priced to condition:
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Gentlemen, I respect your knowledge and opinions very much, so I'd like to ask your advice. I have a strong emotional affinity for Stan Musial. I'd really like to own a 1947 Bond Bread Musial. A ROUNDED-CORNERS Musial, of course. But I'm suspect of a couple I've seen that they could be altered versions of a squared-corners one. Is there history of this happening? With PSA not touching those cards, I find only SGC-graded cards. Should I trust completely those cards are legit? If I look at a raw card, is there a giveaway on alteration? Thank you!
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk |
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http://i.imgur.com/syrnnAO.jpg?1 Priced at $3,950.00. I wonder how much the missing piece of the card would cost? Of the 111 Jackie Robinson (Portrait with facsimile autograph) cards PSA has graded, some 81 of them are better than a PSA 1, including 3 at PSA 1.5. The card you pictured is twice the condition (graded a 2). Investors take note: perhaps the market is trying to say a PSA 8 is worth a half a million? And that's perfectly logical when comparing the relative scarcity of the 13 cards in the set one to another. At one time, all 13 were "rookies." Now some cannot hold that claim. PSA's total population report for all 13 cards in the set is 321 cards graded. The hundred-eleven Portrait (with facsimile autograph) cards are over one-third of all of these 13 cards PSA has graded. And of course, as the picture in this post shows, others card grading services are also active in grading them. |
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The real issue is whether the card is an actual Bond Bread package insert card or whether it is a virtually identical lookalike from the "rounded-corner" Sport Star Subjects set. Those participating in this thread have not come to a consensus as to the date of issue of the Sport Star Subjects set. A few doubt whether the Sport Star Subjects set ever existed with "rounded-corners." If you see a Musial card you like, take it on its face value. I am of the opinion that the very high grade Stan Musial cards available today (whether graded or not) are generally not Bond Bread cards but are from the round-corner Sport Star Subjects set. Mike |
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your gonna have to elaborate on that logic? If that's the case these beaters are a steal at current prices |
I dunno about the market stuff, I just know that the recent research on this very site proved that the portrait w/facsimile sig was indeed a 1947 issue handed out in advance of the others. It also happens to be a very nice looking card. it also was (emphasis on the past tense) an affordable card in the lower grades at least. Is a card in a high numbered slab worth a ton? Find one, auction one, and let's see where it lands. Should it supplant the FUGLY 49 Leaf as the top dog Robinson card? Who knows? The Leaf is iconic in the Hobby; an earlier, nicer card may be the RC but at this point it is not going to diminish the allure of the iconic Leaf. Facts are for little people, not icons. If we have to explain why this card is better than the Leaf the fight is already lost.
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For example, the 1988 Standard Catalog prices the 1985 Mark McGwire #42 rookie card at $11 in MT. If that's the value of the card when graded as a 5, then a 6 is "worth" $22, a 7 $44, an 8 $88 and so forth. During that time, many sought to project what a card would be "worth" by applying the doubling the grade formula to price lists for ungraded cards routinely produced in weekly and monthly baseball card publications. Those seeking to profit from such "insider" information drove the prices further out of proportion. [Added a little after the original post.] So to spell it out, if the PSA 1 pictured above is worth the asking price of $3,950 and you apply the old doubling rule, i.e. a 2 would be worth $7,900, a 3 $15,800, and so forth. Thus using this arbitrary rule, an 8 would be worth about half a million. Today, most of the cards the rule was applied to in the 1980's have falling far short of their expected value. One should appreciate the fact that the lowest grade possible is a 1. While a dog with both ears can receive a 1, one missing an ear still can get the same 1 grade. Obviously it was only graded so someone could say, "See, it's authentic." A card that beat up is only grading so it can be sold, and not collected. Anyone buying it should look at it and not at its holder, or they'll fail to recognize the card as merely the space filler it is. |
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It looks like decent PSA 1s(without corners missing) are selling in the 1.5-2k range on Ebay. Stating the obvious, but asking price on Ebay means absolutely nothing. I agree that this is an under appreciated and perhaps under valued card though.
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1947 BOND BREAD cards
For those of you who are just tuning into this thread.....I am reprising my story here from when I initially posted this thread in April 2009. It appears to me that I may be
the only one on this forum who collected these B/W cards directly from Bond Bread packages. When school started in the Fall of 1947, we (kids) packed our BOND BREAD cards into our lunch boxes. These cards were really popular in our neighborhood in Hillside, NJ. By trading our cards with each other during lunch period, and sharing info, we figured out that a complete set comprised of 48 cards (44 baseball and 4 boxers). Flash forward to 1977......I recovered my original collection of BB, FB, and Non-Sports cards from the attic of my folks home. My Mom and Aunt stored them there while I was away in the Air Force. Included in this "treasure" were 43 of these BB cards. The 4 boxing cards were missing (probably traded them). Forty-two of the BB cards were in their original Excellent condition. The Berra was Vg. And, the Jansen was missing. I recall upgrading the Berra card and acquiring the Jansen in the early 1980's. Finally, in my opinion, the Jackie Robinson card (depicted here) is the legitimate Rookie card of him (in a Major League uniform). The 48 cards in this set were issued in the Spring/Summer of 1947, prior to any of the cards of the special 13-card issue dedicated to Jackie Robinson. P.S.....There must be others on this forum who collected these 1947 BOND BREAD cards directly from the bread packages. I don't think I'm the oldest dude on this forum. So, please chime in here, it would be really appreciated. Perhaps we can compare our experiences from 70 years ago. One thing neat about an "aged mind".....it can recall events from long ago better than most recent events. https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...StanMusial.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...readJRobby.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
Thank you for reposting your story and pictures. I'm just a little younger than you and like you say, it's easier to remember things from 70 years ago than what may have happened over the past 6 months.
Having lived most of my life in Oakland, California (since 8 days old being born in San Francisco), I have no young childhood memories of Bond Bread cards nor much of Major League Baseball. The Giants and Dodgers didn't get to the West Coast until 1958. We had Sunbeam (Remar) Bread and other cards cards for the Oakland Oaks (Pacific Coast League). In the early 1950's Mother's Cookies inserted cards into cookie packages (and they often came out with cookie stains). To us, the Pacific Coast League was one of the "Big Leagues." You're Jackie Robinson card is a beaut! There's much discussion above your last post about the 13 Bond Bread Special Giveaway cards, particularly what many call the set's "Portrait with Facsimile Autograph" card. It is my understanding that the "Portrait with Facsimile Autograph" card was released in 1947 after the Bond Bread package insert card you picture. Just to be sure everyone is on the same page, is that correct? If so, the Bond Bread package insert card would be Jackie Robinson's first baseball card. It is true that the first picture of Robinson as a professional player was published as an insert the year earlier in the August 14 or 16, 1946 Montreal Parade Sportive Newspaper after his historic meeting with Branch Rickey. That insert is about 10 inches tall and pictures Robinson in his Montreal Royals minor league uniform before he became a "Big Leaguer" in 1947. Mike |
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Parade Sportives are great. I have a couple of Joe Louis and two of Maurice Richard from early in his career.
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...%20Louis_1.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...%20Richard.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...Lach-Blake.jpg |
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1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards ?
anyone else notice the golden auction? A PSA 6 Robinson portrait already up to 19k with 4 days left. PWCC just sold a PSA 6 a little over a month ago that went for $15,388. Looks like this card is starting to take off, the question now is not if but when will it catch up to the leaf?
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BB
Not 1947, but still a cool set. Sorry, was trying to post a picture of my 9 card 1958 Bond Bread "Casey Jones" set, having trouble loading the picture. Maybe tomorrow.
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Stock Scan of 1958 Bond Bread Set of 9
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I received that exact letter with my set
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I still have that exact “set” in the holders that they sent them to me in, along with their identifier. I’d be happy to post pictures but this thread is somewhat dated. I came here years ago while looking for additional info on them. I finally got off my butt and registered this passed weekend. Cheers, Butch |
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https://luckeycards.com/d305.jpg |
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1947 Jackie Robinson Rookies?
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Both of these two cards have creases and other wear that clearly does not make them near mint. I base my opinion that these two are Bond Bread inserts on my belief that most of the high grade Robinson cards of identical appearance come from the Sports Star Subjects sets that were issued in packets that protected them from such wear. My view is controversial because many swear the Sports Star Subjects sets were issued in 1949-1950, and thus its Jackie Robinson card and some others would not be “rookie” cards. However, there are those who have responded to this thread (and elsewhere) who state they obtained packets of the Sports Star Subjects set with “rounded” corners like the Bond Bread package inserts in 1947 (and others who state they received packets with “square” corners in 1947). The 48 card Sports Star Subjects set was issued in four series of different packets of 12, with each packet having two varieties. The difference is the imprint on the back of the packets. Some read “W.S.” / “N.Y” while others have that inscription clearly obliterated. Other than being identified with the Sports Star Subjects and Screen Star Subjects sets, no one responding to this thread was aware of who W.S.N.Y was until an association was made with the similarity in packaging of the “Navy Ships” / “Airplanes” set (W673) for which advertising in 1950 publications was located. The “Navy Ships” packets are printed with “A.J. Wildman & Son, New York” on the back. Thus the Sports Star Subjects (and the related Screen Star Subjects) sets were assumed to be issued about 1950. The contents of the “Navy Ships” set does indicate it could not have been issued earlier than Winter of 1949 as the newest ship/plane card in the set is the Martin XB-51 1st Prototype shown as a drawing that is virtually identical to the real photograph taken of its first flight on October 28, 1949. What was missed was what was started to be discussed on the vintagecards website in 2011 and subsequently about “W.S.,” “W.S.N.Y.C.,” “A.J. Wildman New York,” and related sets. The association to the 1939 “Generals & Their Flags” set with “ © W.S. 1939, N.Y.C. ” printed on the back (and the anonymous 1936 sets of “American G-Men”) and other "W.S." sets from 1938-1942 was beginning to be drawn, as it had not been previously addressed in the ACC or other card catalogs. The additional information about W.S. issuing cards long before 1947 challenges the assumption that the Sports Star Subjects set (that is identical to the 1947 Bond Bread package insert cards) was issued in 1949-1950. W.S. had been issuing a variety of sets of cards from more than 10 years before Bond Bread's 1947 issue. We do have two distinct issues: 1947 Bond Bread package inserts and the Sports Star Subjects set. The cards though, are virtually identical. Since there are statements from various collectors of have received the Sports Star Subjects and Screen Star Subjects sets in packets in 1947, it appears to me that it is incorrect to assume those sets were not issued until 1949-1950. That raises the issue of whether the Jackie Robinson and other cards of those sets are “rookie” cards, but from another set, and then again, which was issued first. The Bond Bread cards were not released until after the start of the 1947 baseball season. The other sets were sold in places like Macys and on newstands. We know these baseball cards from either set were popular back then. Bond Bread issues tens of thousands of each player in bread packages for at least 6 months (and perhaps until the start of the 1948 baseball season). The second set of Sports Star Subjects packets with the “W.S.” / “N.Y” obliterated is indicative of that popularity and the need for more supply. We have found that W.S. was having issues before World War II with the printing of sets (unresolved during the War) that may have caused its name identification to be obliterated for a period of time after the War, and are working on resolving the dating issues. There are other sets (non-sports sets) issued post-WWII through 1950 that came in the same style of packages as the Sports Star Subjects, Screen Star Subjects, and “Navy Ship” sets. Some indicate other publishers while others indicate none. I would appreciate it if anyone who has such a packet would send me a picture in a private message or post it in this thread. Thanks, Mike P.S. [added 4/18/2021] Ted's pictures in this thread of the original 1947 Bond Bread cards he obtained back then suggests he has the highest condition Jackie Robinson and other cards that can be proven to be part of the 48 card set that actually came in Bond Bread packages. The fact that several grading companies placed similar looking cards in slabs they labeled as "1947 Bond Bread" package inserts, particularly those with higher grades, does not establish which of the various similarly looking sets the slab's enclosure came from. |
I just had an Enos Slaughter returned from SGC as a fake :(
I was sad about it. Got it at my local card store for like 10 bucks so was worth the chance |
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Festberg Scans provided Member butchie_t
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We all - much thanks to our new member. Mike |
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Thanks for this thread.
I recently picked up a lot of 7 "1947 Bond Bread cards" fairly cheaply. (I also got a couple of 1948 Kelloggs Pep cards with the lot). Based on this thread, I think only my Sheldon Jones is a true Bond Bread with the others being Sports Star Subjects. |
Seems about right.
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The so-called "Bond Bread Perforated Cards" are not Bond Bread
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https://i.imgur.com/G6QfFzh.jpg?3 ELGEE is Louis Greenberg & Son, Inc.. The company originally incorporated in New York in 1929. It wholesaled sundry products to specialty and variety stores ("dime" stores), often labeling them as “AN ELGEE PRODUCT,” as it did the card set often misdescribed as "Bond Bread Perforated Cards." In 1964, it trademarked a special logo containing its initials, “LGS.” https://i.imgur.com/QgAAvNx.jpg?1 https://i.imgur.com/nmChlHu.jpg?1 https://i.imgur.com/JCz2Ffv.jpg?1 https://i.imgur.com/5QgPWHD.jpg?1 One of their very popular products was "ELGEE MINIATURES," similar in boxing to "Matchbox" vehicles but made in cheaper plastic. https://i.imgur.com/UMxVQhE.jpg?1 Each of the two sheets in the set had 24 cards, that's 48 sides. Since two adjoining cards had half of the set description shown above on back, only 46 sides contained "assorted subjects" of Sports, Hollywood or Cowboys. Thus, the indication of "46 subjects" shown on each sheet. With two sheets being made, that a total of 92 sides of cards with pictures of subjects plus 4 sides with set description for a total of 96 sides, or 48 cards. Here's a well known example of one of the descriptive backs with a cowboy on the other side. https://i.imgur.com/PodD9UR.jpg?1 The picture appears to be that of Randolph Scott in "The Desparadoes" (1943). [Added June 1, 2021] Louis Greenberg & Son imported products in bulk and printed and manufactured their own packaging for both foreign and domestically produced products. They had the capabilities to print their perforated "Sports, Hollywood, Cowboys" set. If anyone has an Elgee Product list , price sheet or invoice from any time period; it may help identify their numbering system, other card sets they made have issued, as well as provide a guide to dating. Thank you. Copyright 2021 by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521 |
I am sure this is a dumb question, but when looking at SGC Pop report when you look up 1947 Bond Bread, which sub-category is the rounded corner listed as or is it just listed without a sub-category? I am assuming it is the version with 55 listed.
https://www.gosgc.com/pop-report/res...Bread/Baseball |
Good Question. I just checked the PSA website for an answer. I could no longer find in either PSA's population report nor its price guide a Bond Bread set with 55 graded cards (or 57 cards as I seem to remember). They now list only the "1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson" 13-card set with 333 cards graded and a set they call the "1947 Bond Bread Perforated Dual Sided." The perforated set is the ELGEE set produced by Louis Greenberg and Son discussed above and has nothing to do with Bond Bread. What has PSA now done with the regular 48 card sports set that Bond Bread inserted into bread packages?
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Actually, I believe it was listed as Portrait with a population of 44.
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So, who got the sheet in Lelands?
https://auction.lelands.com/images_i...5_1_261178.jpghttps://auction.lelands.com/images_i...5_3_261180.jpg And when you bust it up I am interested in Cerdan. |
That photo from Leland's got me to start trying to reconstruct the other sheet. When I first saw it, I asked the same question. Apparently the sheet was the basis for a single Jackie Robinson Leland sold. I too would like to know what happened to the other cards. Those may have been the group of graded singles that excluded the Robinson sold individually on another website in 2019 with each lot having a starting bid of $20. Most sold for less than $50. One received no bid at all, though one brought over $200. Since that auction, a dealer on eBay has been listing most of those (same PSA numbers) continuously with an asking price of $200 or more each. One now is at $2,500. That dealer has not been offering the Marcel Cerdan.
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I compared the images of the two, and while they are identical sheets printed from the same plates, they are not the same sheet. Most obvious is that on your sheet, Marcel Cerdan's elbow is not cut off at the margin, while it partially is on the sheet I saw. The perforations did not cut the cards in the same places, with almost a millimeter difference in alignment. Great news. Where the sheet or its individual cards are, who knows, but we all can see another Marcel Cerdan. Sure would like to see a picture of the second sheet or any part of it. |
Need to get Jackie graded!
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I am having frustration in that Beckett, PSA, and SGC all have returned my Jackie Robinson square cornered card and will not grade it. No explanation was offered as to why they declined. My best guess is they do not know how to categorize it. They did not charge me, so I know it is not a fake. From the thread on Jackie my best guess is...
This is not a 1947 Bond Bread card This might be from the Festberg collection This is most likely part of the 1949 Sports Star Subjects packs. Since they can always grade the centering and quality of the card I am guessing the issue is they do not want to call it a 1947 Bond Bread card. Though I have seen SGC and PSA grade similar cards and call them bond bread. I would like one of these companies (or someone similar) to certify the quality level of the card. I would appreciate ideas on how to proceed to get this graded, and which of the potential cards groups to submit this under. Please help! Pictures of the front and back are below. |
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From your scan it cannot be said if it is from: 1. The Sport Star Subjects square card set issued in boxes with W.S.N.Y printed on the back of the box. [W.S.N.Y. is AJ Wildman & Son, whose first issues were the 1936 W.S.N.Y. American G-Men horizontal and vertical sets.] 2. The Sport Star Subjects square card set issued in boxes with W.S.N.Y. obliterated on the back of the box. [With W.S.N.Y. obliterated, the issuer remains unknown, although like the unobliterated set, the cards and boxes were printed by Meyercord.] 3. The London Dry Beverage set but missing the London Dry rubberstamp on the back. 4. The Festberg Remainders. But it has yet to be definitively determined whether those remainders are of Sport Star Subjects Sets, London Dry or some other set(s)? The card is authentic. Why do you need it graded? Mike P.S. In Post 383 above (dated 4/29/2021), I indicated that member butchie_t had provided detailed scans of all of the cards of the Festberg Remainders and that I would post them. I am working my best as time permits to post them along with additional scans that should help clarify which cards are the remainders. Thanks for your patience. |
Thanks for the feedback, Mike. I am not sure why some of these square cards have been graded in the past where you say none would do this. Maybe they have just learned over time on Jackie. I am not sure where to go from here, maybe nowhere.
As for why to have it graded I am surprised you would ask. Which would you rather have? 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle card with no grade 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA grade 2 card 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA grade 7 card Grading authenticates that a vintage card is not fake and also the relative quality of the card. Also the marketplace will let you know the value others place on them via these ratings and that all cards are not created or valued the same. |
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Not being able to definitively identify that the card you submitted to three different grading companies should tell you all you need to know about that card and the subsequent set. I would really like the cards that I have to be Homogenized Bond Bread cards. But there are way too many variables for me much less a TPG to definitively answer that question. I now believe my card set is likely from The Festberg Remainders and they are cool, old and mine. As to a catalog number to associate them too, I doubt greatly that will ever happen. As to why some TPGs did grade some of those cards, it was early in their grading experience and mistakes were made. As you can see now, they learned and will not grade them any longer. |
I was in printing for a very long time...That being said, The cards would have been printed first and then go to the bindery departed to have them round -corner. So the cards from the 80s could have never made it to be round-corner. Just set in the warehouse waititng. This is just one more think to think about.
Those that were printed in 1949, the stock or say paper could have been changed. I believe the design was changed on the stock and square-cornered... to note the two different years' offer., 1947 and 1949. |
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I've learned a lot from this discussion and have one question
Am I correct from the information posted that what PSA has listed as 1947 Bond Bread Exhibits are really just from the 1949 Sports Stars issue? Attachment 491996 Thanks, Jason |
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At the risk of dredging up the old argument, I recently acquired these three cards in an auction. After reading a few pages of this thread, can I assume that these are in fact from the 1949 Sports Stars set? Is that the general consensus now?
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