Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I just had to resurect the longest thread ever <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I had to pass along this post from the SABR-l list about Bonds v Clemens:<br /><br /><I>Can you imagine the furore that would ensue if Barry Bonds announced he was taking half of a season off before returning to join his team? He would be accused of selfishness and thinking only of himself at the expense of the team, but Clemens who did just that gets a free pass. A similar season arose last year when Bonds was criticized as selfish for returning for the last month of the season, while Jeff Bagwell was praised for his heroic efforts to return to help his team make the playoffs. Bonds, of course, was still despite his injuries a productive player, while Bagwell, once a great player, was a cypher</I><br><br>Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />When I saw this thread ressurected I started to laugh to myself. Then I thought "who would have brought it back to the top again?". I was just a bit surprised when I saw the poster...<br /><br />Round 4 - Can it get to 400 posts? Lets hope not.<br /><br />Interesting post by the SABR member. A quick rebuttal (devils advocate so to speak) to that post. I'm not a SABR member so I can't (don't know how) to post it on the SABR board. <br /><br />Clemens is a pitcher, every 5 days he goes out and does his thing. Bonds is an everyday player and his value is in everyday play (in Bonds case, getting his at bats). I suppose you could make the arguement that being around the team brings up commradarie but that's a part of team chemistry and every team is different.<br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>--

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Back up there a ways, Judge Dredd talks about MLB and their anatomy. He had the thumb correctly located. He omitted mentioning that they were sucking their thumbs at the time.<br /><br /> <br /><br />Frank.<br /><br />McGuire was evidently doing stuff that was "legal", but contrary to the public's sense of justice. He retired a bit early, and I think that is why. Barry has evidently continued his use. The ineligible list would be a just place for Barry. And I imagine that sportswriters will make McGuire wait a few years. I figure Barry was good for about 400 of his home runs, and the rest should be credited to Merck, Abbott Labs, Bristol Myers, and folks like that.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>In Jay's defense, I think we can all agree that Clemens is as selfish and greedy as Bonds and probably at least as much of a liar. That being said, though Clemens' head seems to have grown 4 sizes during his career there is no real evidence that he cheats, unlike Bonds. I really don't want to bring this thread back to life...but living in NYC and watching Bonds play here the past two days has made my stomach turn. And Clemens' recent desire to come back as a 'Stro simply because he wants to "win" when his other suitors were all teams in first or second place, ahead of the 'Stros, is equally nauseating.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Spencer</b><p>Someday soon, Bonds will break apart, and melt into the field. AAAHHHHHhhhhhh

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>And when he melts down out there, the Superfund and EPA folks will have to come in and clean up the hazardous chemicals...

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Dustan Hedlin</b><p>Oh man. I don't think I can read through 326 posts, so pardon me if this has already been mentioned. Will baseball actually be able to put an asterisk next to Bonds' HR total unless he was found to be using steroids after 2003? Since they weren't officially banned until 2003, couldn't he have shot up in the dugout in between innings without being punished by baseball?<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Judge, youa re thinking too small. I'm gunning for 500 posts for this thread <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Jay<br><br>Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>I apologize in advance if this has been mentioned but the most interesting piece I have ever read on this is by Asher Chancey on Baseballevolution.com entitled The Bagwell Conspiracy where he traces steroid use in baseball to Jeff Bagwell. His subsequent writing is also interesting.<br /><br />Just go to that website and punch in bonds and chancey as key words.<br /><br />Jim

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Here's a direct link. <br /> <br /><a href="http://www.baseballevolution.com/asher/bagwellconspiracyold.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseballevolution.com/asher/bagwellconspiracyold.html</a><br /><br />Egads. If this article is true, a certain Houston Astro should be arrested and charged with drug trafficing. This should not go unpunished.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>If you actually believe that article, Ive got some swamp land in Florida you might be interested in purchasing.<br /><br />Im not saying that Bagwell never juiced but, first and foremost, that article cites to no sources. Its simply nothing more than a made up story that ties players back to bagwell - sort of like a seven degrees of Jeff Bagwell game.<br /><br />Second, if you believe the story, you would have to believe that even though bagwell began juicing in 1992, by 1999 (seven years later) he was still the ONLY source of steriods in the major leagues - "In 1999 . . . Barry Bonds . . . asked Servais if he knew any secrets which had been helping Sammy . . . Servais offered to give Bagwell a call, which Bonds quickly took him up on." I mean come on, use your brain here - we should believe that seven years after Bagwell "introduced steriods to baseball," that he was the only person who had access to them? This is nonsensical particularly since steriod use had been a problem in the NFL many years prior. Steriods were not new to the world and were readily available - moreover, I am fairly certain that back in 1992 there was no drug testing in MLB and no need for any special designer steriods.<br /><br />Finally, I bet if you check the facts, many of the players never played with other players that they are linked to in the story.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Josh,<br /><br />I don't know if its true or not but don't you think he opens himself up for a lawsuit by his specific allegations?<br /><br />Jim

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Hey Jim,<br /><br />In case there was any confusion, I didnt mean for my post to imply that I was referring to you when I commented on the believability of the story - just making a general comment. As for the article itself, I do think the author has opened himself up to a defamation lawsuit unless he can prove that its truthful (which, as mentioned, I doubt he can).

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Josh,<br /><br />I think you are right on both scores but the specificity of his information and his naming names all the way through is astonishing.<br /><br />Jim

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Right now, Clemens is #2 in lifetime Ks, But he is being continually pressured by the Big Unit - who will pass him this year unless Clemens returns.<br /><br />Plus with 9 more wins, Clemens would join Spahn as the only pitchers to achieve the 350 wins level since Pete Alexander.<br /><br />Some people don't care about numbers, tho.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The whole Jason Grimsley situation should prove very interesting. As Jason Stark's article pointed out, he is baseball's worst nightmare as far someone coming forward about this because he has literally been just about everyone's teammate.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>This is way too funny. Very Onionesque<br /><br /><a href="http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Barry_Bonds" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Barry_Bonds</a><br /><br />Jay<br><br>Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>T Engle</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />That was some good stuff.<br /><br />It had me laughing the whole time!<br /><br />T

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>There sure doesn't seem to be a lot of information about the Grimsley investigation coming out.<br /><br />When is George Mitchell going to investigate the owners? Don't tell me they didn't know about the steroid use. They were the big winners. The attendance and popularity of the game were still down from the 1994 strike and then McGwire and Sosa start hitting homers at a record pace... the fans, TV revenues, and associated sales come back. I saw an estimate where the collective revenues of all MLB teams increased by over $1,000,0000,000 from 1997 to 1999.<br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>I really think that it was more the juice in the ball than the juice in the players which caused the HR barrage. Afterall, owners have been adjusting the game to maximize attendence since they decided that the pitcher's "mound" should be moved all the way back to 50'.<br /><br />Edited to add: Of course, attendence is no longer the issue; ratings is.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I can't believe that people are whining about the journalists that exposed this whole thing are going to to jail for shielding someone that broke the law. I am all for exposing corruption ect. but if the reporters are breaking the law to do so, then they are no better than the law breakers that they are trying to expose. If the laws get change to allow jouranlists to do something like this, then great, but under current laws, what they did was against the law and they should be doing jail time for it.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Rich Mueller</b><p>Jay..<br /><br />And that's the problem. The law needs to be changed. You can't be "in favor of exposing corruption" and still support tossing these guys in jail for doing their job. <br /><br />If you're OK with that, then you really are OK with corruption at all levels of government. Because if whistleblowers can't speak to reporters without fear of being exposed, no one will talk. And when that happens, crooks thrive. <br /><br />The government says it's trying to rid baseball of steroids but it's willing to lock up the 2 guys who've done the most to help expose it.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Rich- This isn't a whistleblower scenario. These guys knowingly broke the law by accepting secret grand jury testimony and using it. The fact they profited by selling a book laced with that information only makes me feel more strongly that they deserve to be punished by a civil contempt for refusing to reveal their sources.<br />Look, here's the bottom line, they knew exactly what they were doing and went ahead and did it any way. Even if what they did was noble and exposed a situation which needed exposing, they are not above the law. President Bush applauding them is so hypocritical it makes me want to puke. The skeletons in his closet must be thumping around and spinning. You can tell its election time. It's fine for your henchmen in Washington to throw a federal agent under the bus and blow her cover and subject her to being killed but its not ok to put someone in jail for this. Unfriggingbelievable...<br />You simply can not pick and choose if someone can violate the law or not, just as you can't pick and choose whether some grand jury testimony can be leaked because it is in the public good and some can't be because it is not. How would you like to give secret grand jury testimony involving the mob and have it leaked and be looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life? Barry Bonds is not John Gotti but the principal is the same. If you want to be noble and expose something you feel needs exposing, great, I commend you, but be ready to pay the price. Besides you'll have a nice financial nest egg from the sale of the book (and probably another book in the future to boot) when you get out. These guys did this going in with their eyes wide open. If you want to blame someone for this sorry mess, blame Bud Selig, the impotent and incompetent, blame the player's union, but don't blame the judicial system here. They are lucky they are looking at civil contempt only and not being charged criminally as co-conspirators.<br />My 2 cents.<br />tbob