Read my post again and you'll find that I was referring to the verbiage used in their official policy that is published on their website.

You said, ‘If you can't read between the lines, I'd be happy to translate for you. He's saying, "if you use something to clean your cards with, you should probably wipe it off before submitting it."’

The PSA prez wasn’t only talking about cleaning cards, but also removing dents and creases, fixing corners, etc. with Kurt’s magic card juice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

So the better someone is at doctoring, that makes it OK. Man has the world changed from the hobby I grew up in.

No, he wasn't.

It’s incredibly sad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Hasn't always been that way though? I would argue the only thing that has changed is social media now puts it in front of everyone's faces. But fixing card flaws is as old as cards.

Not really, you are just more aware of it now.

“PSA does not approve of any chemicals or foreign substances being added to the surface of a card to improve the condition or appearance.”

Removing dents and creases, as well as fixing corners definitely applies here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

There is, IMO, much more acceptance of it now, especially if it isn't glaringly obvious. People who are at the top of the hobby now used to be widely regarded as scum, for example.

+1
Hopefully, one just got out of the business and stays out.

https://youtu.be/4xdnrPas48M?si=_aYa9qQ-cR64f_yy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Depends on who you are referring to and who you ask. Lots of "us" feel that lots of "them" are still scum.

Interesting interview.

Obviously Kurt seems pretty focused on not stigmatizing collectors who choose to clean up their cards. Of course, his premise is that the primary motivation for cleaning cards is for a collector to enjoy their stuff.

If I’m interpreting most of the concerns around here correctly, it’s that the primary motivation of cleaning up cards is to make a bunch of money, and be deceptive about it in the process, because no one would buy them if they knew they were cleaned. Or they wouldn’t pay nearly as much for them.

Cleaning, removing dents, removing creases, and fixing corners are all apparently now considered a legitimate way to get one over on the graders and spin straw into gold.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Yup. Of course one could ask, if it's so legit, why doesn't anyone disclose it when they submit or when they sell.

How long until we hear recoloring is OK because it's just restoring the original color?

Absolutely. Put it on the PSGCA submission form. Include it in the auction description.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Funny how despite all the jive that it's all OK, that never happens.

I have 100% seen a counterfeit card sent to PSA with a detailed description of how it differed from a normal card get a PSA 9 grade. I have sold cards on this very forum that I listed with the alteration(s) in the description.

It does happen.:D

Here is a link to one of the auctions. It also calls out an extremely common altered card some known scammers have had a never ending supply of for decades. https://net54baseball.com/showthread...958+hank+aaron

From the description for lot #1061 in the current Collector Connection auction:

"These are stellar looking cards but it is our opinion that they have all been expertly altered. From tiny color touches to micro trimming..."

I know I've seen alterations disclosed in descriptions by other auction houses as well, but I knew right where to find that example, for obvious reasons.

Brian Russell

He has by far my favorite item description. Always been a huge fan of how he lists cards in his auctions.

Honest people who come into possession of an altered card sell it as altered and note what appears to have been done. That's not new or rare, there are plenty of examples every day.

Nobody believes one can not do what they wish with their own private property.

The criticism made throughout this thread is the people who alter cards, and then submit and sell them without any disclosure (the part that makes it fraud) of the work they have done or paid others to do. The people altering cards do not disclose it. They know perfectly well why they never disclose it, because honesty doesn't pay out as well as fraud. We all know that X card honestly listed and publicly known as altered will sell for less than X card listed dishonestly and not known to be a doctors work as a clean PSA Y. If it had no effect on value, there would be no reason for our scammers to mask the alterations - the only reason to commit the act is the $$$.

It's not so much accepted in vintage land as it is the pet project of a vocal minority that dodge and dance around the key part of non-disclosure in their justifications for the crime. The crooks used to pay lip service against fraud and try not to get caught, now they just celebrate it. Probably a better strategy in the long run for success, since they care not about even basic ethics.

.

I particularly love the circular justification that there is no need to disclose it because it isn't material.

If it is so accepted and so immaterial then why not just tell the world? I know snowman lists a lot of cards for sale. He also openly, to his credit, admits here to cleaning and improving cards. Not sure where he actually draws the line. Anyway, when I look at his ebay listings oddly I never see him disclose any work done...I guess those cards he has listed are not the ones he has worked on. :confused:

And I do think with each passing day fewer collectors care what has been done to the card. I imagine a majority of the collectors who read a disclosure that a card was worked on would be discouraged from buying. They see it passed grading so the assumption is that whatever was done must not have been considered improper. The concept of improving cards is more widely accepted in the hobby than it was even a few years ago.

If TPG is not seeing evidence of the improvements, the question is, should they? And if not then is the work just that good or is that work too subtle to be detected. Evidence should not just be applied to sloppy work but if a tree falls in a forest...

Apparently this was spotted at the Dallas Card Show this past weekend.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ddb6bd86be.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Not everyone who cleans cards is doing it to make money though. I know a lot of people who regularly clean commons that are worth nothing. The only reason they don't go around announcing it to the world is because we now live in the age of social media and there's no shortage of unemployed hobby clowns with a platform whose sole goal in life is to run around trolling anyone and everyone they disagree with and attempting to get them "canceled", regardless of whether their opinions on the topic matter one bit.

The fact of the matter is that people have been doing this stuff to improve the condition of their cards since the very first cards were ever printed. And when the grading companies arrived at the scene, they all continued to allow it. It's the way it's always been and it's how it will always continue to be. Don't be afraid of the boogeyman. Nothing bad is going to happen to your cards. Half of your collections are made up of cards that someone improved in some way at some point. The idea that this stuff must be stopped or policed somehow is absurd. All these guys like Sports Card Radio, DanTheCardMan, AIH, etc., are the hobby equivalent of the guy with a megaphone and a hand painted sign, standing on a milk crate, preaching at pedestrians in downtown San Francisco. The truth is, nobody else cares. They're just baseball cards.

I assume you are too young to have been in the hobby when I started. I assure you most people did not think that way back then. Not that it was pure, far far from it (many of today's doctoring superstars got their start in those days), but things you think are innocent and immaterial were not regarded as such for the most part. And sure, some people just want to improve the appearance of their own cards. But a huge part of it is done to deceive, for profit.

If I'm selling an altered card, I mention it in both the listing title and description. You can look through my sold listings and you'll see plenty of disclosures like "TRIMMED", "CREASED", "PAPER LOSS", etc. Those are alterations, and if I have a card that is altered, I will disclose it. But if I did something to a card as benign as pushing back down a bent corner with my thumb or safely cleaned something off the surface of my card without damaging it, then no, of course I'm not going to advertise it because there's nothing to disclose in that case. If you're interested in the card and ask me point blank, I'll tell you, but I'm not going to advertise it. That's not an alteration and I couldn't care less if a small faction of hobby ultra-purists disagrees with me. This is the main problem. Many of you guys are casting your preferences onto others and making absurd "criminal" accusations about anyone who sees things differently. And with stuff like card cleaning, polishing a modern chrome card, or soaking a vintage card, your viewpoints are in the minority.

You and your buddy Jonah. Birds of a feather.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

I'm not going to disclose it because there's nothing to disclose strikes me as circular reasoning? There is something that could potentially be disclosed, and you acknowledge there are people who would care, but you've made a judgment not to disclose. So the question is, is it too much effort? Are you worried it might affect the sale price? Something else?

Encountered this line of thinking recently.

X sells Y raw card for cash and slabbed card. Y subs raw card and gets an A back. X then discloses they cleaned the card. X takes the card back and pays back Y fully vut cracked their to clean that one too. Y is still out cards they would've never given up if it had been disclosed. X will clean card and try and make more money still with both the first and traded card.

Better to ask forgiveness than permission (disclose the cleaning).

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

I don't believe there is any deception going on at all for most improvements. People are simply fixing minor flaws on their cards just like they would fix anything else that they own. I think it's similar to selling a used car. If that car was considered "totaled" by an insurance company, then that's a material fact and it needs to be disclosed, but if it just had a small fender dent and you were able to pop it back out with a suction cup, then there's nothing material to disclose. Obviously, the conversation changes if we're talking about trimming, but Kurt isn't doing stuff like that.

If I pretend words and phrases mean whatever I want them to mean instead of the actual meaning and use circular logic, I can argue literally anything.

We all know the obvious. These sellers do not mention their alterations because they know perfectly well it hurts the value. They will insist otherwise, for the equally obvious reasons.

I think you're justifying it, not explaining it? What harm would there be in disclosing, given it's obvious some people do still care? Why not err on the side of full candor, if as you say it's inconsequential it won't affect price.

If someone bumps into your car in a parking lot with a shopping cart, and it leaves a black mark on your car but you're able to buff it out when you get home and the car looks as good as new, did you commit fraud when you later traded it in at the dealership without disclosing it? Serious question. And if you think this isn't a perfect parallel to someone cleaning a card and not disclosing it, then you're on an island.

I may be on an island, but I have lots of company still. :eek: Big island. Hell, Australia is an island.

I know which card/s you're referring to. I agree, the seller should not have sold it to the buyer without it having passed grading first, and after having some so, he shouldn't have done anything to the other cards until the buyer got it back from grading.

That said, the reason that particular card was rejected had nothing to do with it having been cleaned. It also later passed grading - and at a higher grade than he guaranteed to the buyer at that.

🥱 funny the seller/fraudster said the same thing about why it didn't pass grading when both PSA and SGC didn't give it a number. Neither of you actually know.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

As I mentioned above, it's just not worth the drama for most people. They're just not interested in battling with these guys on social media who disagree with their viewpoint. They're not trying to be deceptive, they simply think your viewpoint isn't worth acknowledging. They do not see it as an alteration.

Please don't twist this into a political debate, but there's a similar conversation going on in society regarding people who wish to identify as cats (or foxes, furries, dragons, etc.) and who demand that others refer to them as such. There are some who choose to support them and who will refer to them as dragons, and then there are others, who view them as delusional and choose not to participate. Sometimes people just see things differently. And in this case, people who clean their cards simply disagree with your assessment that doing so renders them altered. It's not about deceiving you, it's about completely disregarding your viewpoint.

You don't know what you're talking about. I've seen the card in person. Have you?

It passed grading at SGC the first time. The seller didn't like the grade, so they sent it to PSA. That's when PSA rejected it. They gave it an N5 designation ("altered stock"), not an N7 which would be for "evidence of cleaning". The reason it was rejected had nothing to do with him cleaning it. The flaw that they were looking at was already there when he bought it. The seller then asked me to examine the card for him because he couldn't find anything wrong with it. I looked at it and showed him what PSA was looking at and I advised him that it would likely pass grading at SGC, but that it wasn't a guarantee. It's a flaw that different graders disagree about how to grade. Based on my opinion, and the fact that SGC had previously graded it as numeric, he chose to sell it raw and guaranteed the buyer a particular grade with SGC. The buyer sent the card to SGC and they graded it as altered. I scolded the seller, who then owned up to his mistake and promptly refunded the buyer. I then learned that it was actually a partial trade deal and that he had cracked open one of the buyers cards already, before the deal was finalized, and I scolded him again. After refunding the buyer, he regraded it, and it passed grading again.

Calling the seller a "fraudster" is ridiculous. He made some stupid choices, then owned up to his mistakes and promptly refunded the buyer. That's not what fraudsters do.

I beg to differ on this particular point. This is PRECISELY what smart fraudsters do. They appease those who call them out on their fraud so they can continue committing it on the masses who never call them on it/discover it.

Comparing juicing up baseball cards to fixing cars is absurd. G’day, mate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

G1911 said it perfectly. It's all about money, and pretending it's anything else is obtuse. Sellers who alter cards (for the pedantic I use the term to include trimming, coloring, soaking or cleaning) NEVER disclose they've altered a card because they know it will crater the resale value. If it's really immaterial, it would be a matter-of-fact detail in the description.

You can rationalize it a hundred different ways, but until I meet a seller who actually discloses their alterations (still waiting), you can't convince me it's anything other than financially motivated deception.

Peter_Spaeth, it's getting awful crowded on this island. I'm starting to think we might be the ones on the mainland.

They gave it altered stock and your telling me cleaning had nothing to do with it [emoji38][emoji38][emoji38][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji23][emoji23][emoji38][emoji38]

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Yes, that's precisely what I'm telling you. N7 grade is for cleaning. N5 is for altered stock. They're not the same thing. Maybe learn how to grade cards if you want to engage in a discussion about grading cards? Or don't. Up to you.

Isn't the N5 altered stock usually from obvious pressing?

For some people, I have no doubt that it's all about money. But for others, it's definitely not. But even for those who are trying to profit from it, what difference does it make? Incentives are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is whether or not what they're doing is OK. And like it or not, the grading companies all allow you to clean your cards. They always have, and always will. Again, trimming, recoloring, that's something else. But Kurt doesn't do that stuff.

Which is part of the cleaning process as well.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

The most common reason N5 is given us due to a card being kept in a screw down.

No, it's definitely not.

Yes, it is.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. I could write a book on the subject. You've never even soaked a card. But keep talking.

Expose yourself as the card alteration expert you are. I don't care.

Those who shout the loudest have the most to hide. Seems like on this subject you've gone out of your way to disagree with everyone and tell them they're on an island when really, it's just you and your collection of altering friends and altered cards.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

There are many videos on Kurt’s YouTube channel where he uses his wizard water to not just “clean” but to also remove scratches, dents, and creases.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

And Kurt's videos are not continuous so who knows if he is doing other things when the camera is not taking the video. I am not saying he is but seems highly questionable the results he gets by spraying some unknown substance on a card, placing it under weight and having flaws vanish.

It's all good!! But God forbid it gets disclosed.

There’s no need to disclose; it’s like popping out a dent on your Civic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Yes, used car buyers definitely value originality. :) LOL. That analogy showed a true lack of understanding of the ethos of card collecting, at least as it used to be.

+1

All we need now is Car(d)fax.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

But a heck of a lot of effort is being made to explain why disclosing is justified. Such BS.

As it still is. It's a vocal minority trying to justify their fraud. Even this thread's transcript only shows like 2-3 folks actually arguing against disclosure.

Votes in favor of non-disclosure are up, but it does not appear to be anything approaching a majority, though unlike some here I can't pretend to speak for everyone else. Blowout is dominated by the new guys and even that place was very much against the massive fraud and non-disclosures. It's small circles of scammers in which this is a majority view.

Clearly the differences in both camps are nothing more than perspective, as snowman points out: "Sometimes people just see things differently. And in this case, people who clean their cards simply disagree with your assessment that doing so renders them altered. It's not about deceiving you, it's about completely disregarding your viewpoint."

"Your honor, I did not conceive of taking that man's wallet against his will to be robbery. I simply disagree with the assessment that taking it against his will constituted robbery. It's not about being dishonest, it's about completely disregarding your viewpoint."

It’s not a crime if “I” think it’s okay. :D

I have nothing to hide. That's why I'm on here openly discussing what I do. If you want to learn something and are interested in the topic, even if you disagree with it, then you would benefit from listening to what I have to say. Ask any questions you want. I'll answer them honestly.

However, if you instead just want to run your mouth, then have at it. There's plenty of room on my ignore list for ignorant trolls.

Just read through the comments on this page. It should be quite clear why most people have no interest in disclosing this stuff. You have to have rhino skin to come on here and discuss this stuff openly. Most people don't have it.

And yet, alterations need not be disclosed because nobody cares. Strange how these can both be true!

As I've mentioned numerous times, I disclose alterations. I also disclose hidden flaws that are not alterations (something very few people in this hobby do). Here are just a handful of random listings I've sold where you can see these disclosures listed in the title (and which are again mentioned in the descriptions).

CardFax - You might want to quickly Trademark that.


.

155. Shuncestry.com (also Conmancestry.com) (theoretical)
A site that examines the ‘DNA’ of a card to see if, before you agree to buy it, it has ever spent time with PWCC or other notorious card doctors.

You mean like eBay, Probstein, Heritage (you do know they have their own in-house card doctors, right?), Goldin, REA, Mile High, LotG, and literally everyone else?

Many people do not understand the extent of the issue ... even after all the exposure.

Please clarify what you mean with this sentence.

Thanks,
-Al

He has no idea what he means with defamatory statements like these... just blowing smoke as usual. The amount of credence that people give him here is beyond me. :confused:

Other than the Heritage comment, I just took him to mean that altered cards are everywhere and nobody can stop it completely, so to suggest it is/was only PWCC with the problem is not accurate.

Maybe that's what he meant, but it sure seems like an accusation. Of course the irony is he sees nothing wrong with it so he's "accusing" people of doing nothing wrong, even though it's something...

Snowman, please address this because Al deserves better.

Ebay was the first one listed. Surely he wasn't accusing ebay of doctoring cards. I think he's just saying, in the worlds of the old Converse commercial, they're everywhere. But let's see if he comes back and clarifies.

Apparently, posting my little old humorous 'Collectorism' from years ago in response to someone's 'Cardfax' post (because of the obvious similarity) triggered him. So out of character!! :D

Yes, this is precisely what I meant. No auction house is immune to consigners sending them altered cards. They're literally everywhere. There's just no way around it.

I was not saying that ebay or Al (or anyone on his team) is altering cards.

The only auction house I claimed was doing anything to the cards themselves was Heritage, because I know with absolute certainty that they regularly clean cards before submitting them for grading. I am not, however, accusing them of altering cards. I have no evidence that they've ever done so, and I don't believe that they would (again, cleaning is not altering). All I know for sure is that they clean them and make minor improvements by soaking them.

Triggered?

I made a simple comment that shouldn't have been difficult to decode. You said something about PWCC selling altered cards and I was merely pointing out the fact that no auction house is immune from this.