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-   -   Will you get vaccinated against COVID once it's available? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=286638)

Peter_Spaeth 05-17-2021 09:30 AM
PS I think the other side of the equation absolutely should be discussed. I have no issue with that. What I have an issue with is distorting and denying the positive side.

We make the same judgments about many things in life. We know that X number of people are going to die or be seriously injured in car accidents every year. So do we ban driving?

ALR-bishop 05-17-2021 09:30 AM
Great Frank. Something else for me to worry about

egri 05-17-2021 10:21 AM
This thread is approaching ‘Kevin Mize BST post’ territory for number of posts with no resolution, and I don’t think anyone is going to change their mind based off what they read in a baseball card forum.

vintagetoppsguy 05-17-2021 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by egri (Post 2103990)
This thread is approaching ‘Kevin Mize BST post’ territory for number of posts with no resolution, and I don’t think anyone is going to change their mind based off what they read in a baseball card forum.
I agree, minds aren't going to be changed.

As far as a resolution, I think the best resolution is for everyone to worry about themselves and not what others are doing. Do what you think is right for you.

Peter_Spaeth 05-17-2021 10:34 AM
It's a discussion, there doesn't have to be a resolution.

vintagetoppsguy 05-17-2021 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2103995)
It's a discussion, there doesn't have to be a resolution.
Trying to force compliance is not a discussion.

vintagetoppsguy 05-17-2021 11:12 AM
Never mind. He would never get it anyway.

Casey2296 05-17-2021 05:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by egri (Post 2103990)
This thread is approaching ‘Kevin Mize BST post’ territory for number of posts with no resolution, and I don’t think anyone is going to change their mind based off what they read in a baseball card forum.
Thanks for the many inquiries, still available...

frankbmd 05-18-2021 09:56 AM
If Floyd Mayweather was administering the vaccine, would you still want to be jabbed.....................once or twice.:eek:

Aquarian Sports Cards 05-18-2021 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2103710)
I answered your question, maybe you'll answer mine. Why would someone who's been fully vaccinated and believes their vaccination protects them be concerned with those who are unvaccinated?
That's an easy one to answer from a science perspective. The more people who are unvaccinated the more time we give the virus to mutate. The more time we give it to mutate the more likely it mutates into a variant against which the current vaccines don't work. THAT'S why herd immunity is such a big deal. Not as much for immediate health but to keep this thing from lingering and flaring up continuously for years.

Tripredacus 05-18-2021 02:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards (Post 2104380)
That's an easy one to answer from a science perspective. The more people who are unvaccinated the more time we give the virus to mutate. The more time we give it to mutate the more likely it mutates into a variant against which the current vaccines don't work. THAT'S why herd immunity is such a big deal. Not as much for immediate health but to keep this thing from lingering and flaring up continuously for years.
The argument you post is missing in important detail, especially in regards to herd immunity. Herd Immunity is not caused by vaccination alone, but natural immunity plus vaccination for those who do not have that natural immunity. It is incorrect presumption that a virus cannot mutate due to vaccination, it can mutate either way. In the classical sense, a vaccinated person often becomes a carrier.

Now the current vaccines used against covid in North America are not the classical type, and they are not designed to provide immunity. They are designed to provide a decreased percentage for the spike protein to bind to ACE2, thus lowering viral load in which the viral side effects are lower or not noticed by the person. Even in this design, they still say that a person who is vaccinated can still become infected and still spread the virus, albeit at a lower rate.

The pressure on the virus due to the operating environment is what causes a virus to mutate. The limiting factors are the inability to spread, be it from a vaccinated person's increased resilience to the spike protein, or a recovered person with immunity. In this case, a virus may mutate to overcome those limitations. Now there are various outcomes of our current environment, as we have 4 (or 5) groups of people:
1. Those who have not had an infection but are not immune
2. Those who have recovered from an infection and have immunological memory (the body recognises the virus as well as spike protein)
3. Those who are vaccinated but have not had a previous infection.
4. Those who have recovered, have the immunological memory, and are vaccinated.
5. Those who are naturally immune

(I think this is all of the possibilities at this time, if I forgot one let me know)

So from the above, we can potentially ignore #5 because there is no way to know how a mutant would effect them. For the others the situation can vary depending on the reason why the mutant came into being.

If a mutation occurs where a portion of the virus changes but it still binds to ACE2, then it will effect group 3 more than 2 or 4 because group 3 does not have immunological memory of the virus, only the spike protein

If a mutation occurs where the spike protein changes OR binds to something other than ACE2 but the virus itself largely remains unchanged, then it will effect group 3 more than group 2 and 4, because group 2 would have the memory of the virus.

The moral of the story is that vaccines do not (and have not) ever stopped a virus from mutating. Now there is some tedpidation in the literature I have read that vaccinating such large portions of a population gives the population too common of an infection vector. Rather than longer periods in the past of natural infection and a vaccine coming much later tends to give a varied type of immunity in a population, which creates a more difficult environment for a virus to adapt to.

This virus is new, and the methods that governments have been using to contain it are new. Whether you get the vaccine or not, we won't know how it plays out until it plays out. And even then, it isn't like we can know if we did it right, because we can't have a do-over to try something else.

G1911 05-18-2021 02:58 PM
.

Republicaninmass 05-18-2021 03:01 PM
I'll take it, trumps any ongoing negotiations

For the card that is

vintagetoppsguy 05-18-2021 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104416)
I am generally pro-vaccine (they have done many great things and greatly extended human life) and make risk averse choices in life. I do not think Bill Gates is trying to implant me with a microchip. Upon reflection, I have decided not to get this one. I was concerned at first, especially after seeing the videos form Wuhan on the other side of the internet, with people appearing to be dropping like flies in the street. I have completely ignored Covid since August.


First, it is not thoroughly tested. Complete blanket immunity was given to the drug companies, each of which has a spotty record when it comes to ethics and honesty. it is not FDA approved for anything but "emergency use" (Yes, I work in an FDA regulated industry, I know what this means), it is rushed. I do not greatly doubt its efficacy, but there is no reasonable argument that this was not rushed out the door and there may be much unknown. I am careful about what I put in my body (learned that lesson the hard way), I do not drink sugary drinks, I do not eat junk food, I do not take medications unless I have no other choice and modify behavior first if that might work instead. I am not perfect, but I don't take something because someone in authority told me too.


Second, the reason to get a vaccine is to avoid the risk of the affects of the disease, which is a very minor risk to me now that we have much more data. In many countries the average age of death is lower than the average age of death of people who die from Covid. The CDC, which is supportive of the narrative, projects a death rate for those in my age group that might as well not exist. And this is all done after counting in a way that maximizes Covid deaths, by tabulating people who die within 14 days of a diagnosis (or even reporting a symptom that could be 100 other things) as if they died from Covid. One need not be an expert in statistics to see the absurdity of this. Imagine if we counted "vaccine deaths" the same way? You would see large numbers of 'vaccinated dead', even though because X happened and Y happened, it does not mean that X caused Y. I don't get flu shots, I see little practical reason to get this either.


Third, the appeals to authority do not stand to reason to me. "trust the science" is not a good argument, especially when much science is ignored if it does not suit the narrative of the people saying this. Surgical masks were not found to be effective against airborne viruses in studies before 2020. Put on a surgical mask, step outside on a cold morning, and breathe. See your breath in the air? States with high mask usage are not doing better than states without. Masks are separate and distinct form the vaccine, but based on the previous absurdities being pushed by "science" about Covid, 'trusting the science' makes no sense beyond the fact that appeals to authority are always a fallacy. It is also fundamentally not how science works, question everything is how actual science works. I trust clean statistical data, not appeals to authority, not papers with massive control problems bankrolled by companies and groups with a vested interest in that specific outcome.


Foruth, on the personal side, the public hysteria that is completely out of line with the measurable risk, makes me just not want to participate in show this at all. I live in a state that uses this as a reason to restrict core constitutional freedoms, like assembly (unless it is a riot supported by the media, those weren't mass-spread events and were okay, but me and my extended family having Thanksgiving dinner sure was considered such, as were political events the media did not approve of). Any questioning of the narrative is met with derision, the social witch-hunt at schools, companies, and in communities here to virtue signal their heroism for locking themselves inside for over a year and castigate anyone who simply does not participate in the show pushes me deeper into the no-vaccine camp by emotional instinct.


If I spent my life afraid of things I have a roughly 99.8% chance of surviving, I would fear almost everything in the world. This strikes me as a stupid way to live, whether or not the fear being discussed is the current flavor of the month and socially popular. Even if this vaccine is somehow the most safe thing ever devised in the history of the world, the difference between it and getting Covid at 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency is negligible.


I think people should decide for themselves, based on any standard they choose, rational, emotional, or absurd. 'My body, my choice', right?
Excellent, well written post.

irv 05-18-2021 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104436)
Excellent, well written post.
X2!

Excellent post, G1911.

Huysmans 05-19-2021 07:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104416)
I am generally pro-vaccine (they have done many great things and greatly extended human life) and make risk averse choices in life. I do not think Bill Gates is trying to implant me with a microchip. Upon reflection, I have decided not to get this one. I was concerned at first, especially after seeing the videos form Wuhan on the other side of the internet, with people appearing to be dropping like flies in the street. I have completely ignored Covid since August.


First, it is not thoroughly tested. Complete blanket immunity was given to the drug companies, each of which has a spotty record when it comes to ethics and honesty. it is not FDA approved for anything but "emergency use" (Yes, I work in an FDA regulated industry, I know what this means), it is rushed. I do not greatly doubt its efficacy, but there is no reasonable argument that this was not rushed out the door and there may be much unknown. I am careful about what I put in my body (learned that lesson the hard way), I do not drink sugary drinks, I do not eat junk food, I do not take medications unless I have no other choice and modify behavior first if that might work instead. I am not perfect, but I don't take something because someone in authority told me too.


Second, the reason to get a vaccine is to avoid the risk of the affects of the disease, which is a very minor risk to me now that we have much more data. In many countries the average age of death is lower than the average age of death of people who die from Covid. The CDC, which is supportive of the narrative, projects a death rate for those in my age group that might as well not exist. And this is all done after counting in a way that maximizes Covid deaths, by tabulating people who die within 14 days of a diagnosis (or even reporting a symptom that could be 100 other things) as if they died from Covid. One need not be an expert in statistics to see the absurdity of this. Imagine if we counted "vaccine deaths" the same way? You would see large numbers of 'vaccinated dead', even though because X happened and Y happened, it does not mean that X caused Y. I don't get flu shots, I see little practical reason to get this either.


Third, the appeals to authority do not stand to reason to me. "trust the science" is not a good argument, especially when much science is ignored if it does not suit the narrative of the people saying this. Surgical masks were not found to be effective against airborne viruses in studies before 2020. Put on a surgical mask, step outside on a cold morning, and breathe. See your breath in the air? States with high mask usage are not doing better than states without. Masks are separate and distinct form the vaccine, but based on the previous absurdities being pushed by "science" about Covid, 'trusting the science' makes no sense beyond the fact that appeals to authority are always a fallacy. It is also fundamentally not how science works, question everything is how actual science works. I trust clean statistical data, not appeals to authority, not papers with massive control problems bankrolled by companies and groups with a vested interest in that specific outcome.


Foruth, on the personal side, the public hysteria that is completely out of line with the measurable risk, makes me just not want to participate in show this at all. I live in a state that uses this as a reason to restrict core constitutional freedoms, like assembly (unless it is a riot supported by the media, those weren't mass-spread events and were okay, but me and my extended family having Thanksgiving dinner sure was considered such, as were political events the media did not approve of). Any questioning of the narrative is met with derision, the social witch-hunt at schools, companies, and in communities here to virtue signal their heroism for locking themselves inside for over a year and castigate anyone who simply does not participate in the show pushes me deeper into the no-vaccine camp by emotional instinct.


If I spent my life afraid of things I have a roughly 99.8% chance of surviving, I would fear almost everything in the world. This strikes me as a stupid way to live, whether or not the fear being discussed is the current flavor of the month and socially popular. Even if this vaccine is somehow the most safe thing ever devised in the history of the world, the difference between it and getting Covid at 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency is negligible.


I think people should decide for themselves, based on any standard they choose, rational, emotional, or absurd. 'My body, my choice', right?
Best post within this thread by far....

ESPECIALLY points three and four.

AustinMike 05-19-2021 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104416)
I am generally pro-vaccine (they have done many great things and greatly extended human life) and make risk averse choices in life. I do not think Bill Gates is trying to implant me with a microchip. Upon reflection, I have decided not to get this one. I was concerned at first, especially after seeing the videos form Wuhan on the other side of the internet, with people appearing to be dropping like flies in the street. I have completely ignored Covid since August.


First, it is not thoroughly tested. Complete blanket immunity was given to the drug companies, each of which has a spotty record when it comes to ethics and honesty. it is not FDA approved for anything but "emergency use" (Yes, I work in an FDA regulated industry, I know what this means), it is rushed. I do not greatly doubt its efficacy, but there is no reasonable argument that this was not rushed out the door and there may be much unknown. I am careful about what I put in my body (learned that lesson the hard way), I do not drink sugary drinks, I do not eat junk food, I do not take medications unless I have no other choice and modify behavior first if that might work instead. I am not perfect, but I don't take something because someone in authority told me too.


Second, the reason to get a vaccine is to avoid the risk of the affects of the disease, which is a very minor risk to me now that we have much more data. In many countries the average age of death is lower than the average age of death of people who die from Covid. The CDC, which is supportive of the narrative, projects a death rate for those in my age group that might as well not exist. And this is all done after counting in a way that maximizes Covid deaths, by tabulating people who die within 14 days of a diagnosis (or even reporting a symptom that could be 100 other things) as if they died from Covid. One need not be an expert in statistics to see the absurdity of this. Imagine if we counted "vaccine deaths" the same way? You would see large numbers of 'vaccinated dead', even though because X happened and Y happened, it does not mean that X caused Y. I don't get flu shots, I see little practical reason to get this either.


Third, the appeals to authority do not stand to reason to me. "trust the science" is not a good argument, especially when much science is ignored if it does not suit the narrative of the people saying this. Surgical masks were not found to be effective against airborne viruses in studies before 2020. Put on a surgical mask, step outside on a cold morning, and breathe. See your breath in the air? States with high mask usage are not doing better than states without. Masks are separate and distinct form the vaccine, but based on the previous absurdities being pushed by "science" about Covid, 'trusting the science' makes no sense beyond the fact that appeals to authority are always a fallacy. It is also fundamentally not how science works, question everything is how actual science works. I trust clean statistical data, not appeals to authority, not papers with massive control problems bankrolled by companies and groups with a vested interest in that specific outcome.


Foruth, on the personal side, the public hysteria that is completely out of line with the measurable risk, makes me just not want to participate in show this at all. I live in a state that uses this as a reason to restrict core constitutional freedoms, like assembly (unless it is a riot supported by the media, those weren't mass-spread events and were okay, but me and my extended family having Thanksgiving dinner sure was considered such, as were political events the media did not approve of). Any questioning of the narrative is met with derision, the social witch-hunt at schools, companies, and in communities here to virtue signal their heroism for locking themselves inside for over a year and castigate anyone who simply does not participate in the show pushes me deeper into the no-vaccine camp by emotional instinct.


If I spent my life afraid of things I have a roughly 99.8% chance of surviving, I would fear almost everything in the world. This strikes me as a stupid way to live, whether or not the fear being discussed is the current flavor of the month and socially popular. Even if this vaccine is somehow the most safe thing ever devised in the history of the world, the difference between it and getting Covid at 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency is negligible.


I think people should decide for themselves, based on any standard they choose, rational, emotional, or absurd. 'My body, my choice', right?
I think we can all agree that sound decisions should be based on sound input in the decision making process. Your reasoning for not getting the vaccine, while well written, is not based on complete input. There is one major point which you omit. I’ll go over it plus another questionable point.

“(T)he reason to get a vaccine is to avoid the risk of the affects of the disease.” That is one of the reasons. The other reason is for a person to minimize his/her potential of passing the virus to another person. At 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency, you can get Covid-19 and survive. Great! But what about the people you infect? Can you say the same about them?

“Put on a surgical mask, step outside on a cold morning, and breathe. See your breath in the air?” Yes, what of it? Do you expect a mask to completely absorb your breath so that none of your warm, moist breath condenses when it hits the cold air? Sorry, but that’s a rather specious reason to argue against wearing a mask. The reason for the mask is to reduce the distance that a person's breath will travel, thus minimizing the potential of a person infecting someone else. Not 100% perfect, but minimizing the distance the virus may travel from an infected person is important. At 30 with a healthy weight and no vitamin D deficiency, you can get Covid-19 and survive. Great! But what if you get infected and don’t know it? Isn’t wearing a mask a small price to pay if it can help keep you from infecting someone else?

“States with high mask usage are not doing better than states without.” Do you have a source for this claim? This reference completely refutes that claim.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0249891

Lastly, you say you have a 99.8% chance of surviving getting Covid-19. Let me point out, that your chances of surviving the covid shot are greater than that. But, "what are the long-term effects the vaccine will have on me?", you ask. Right now, the prevailing thought is that it shouldn't have any. And, honestly, this thought may change. Do you know what the long-term effects of getting Covid-19 are? Is the prevailing thought that there is no chance of long-term effects of getting Covid-19?

G1911 05-19-2021 11:10 AM
.

packs 05-19-2021 11:29 AM
Pretty draconian view of society and your place in it. Would you slow down for someone crossing a street after the light turns green? Or did they make a decision they'll have to live with now?

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104661)
Pretty draconian view of society and your place in it. Would you slow down for someone crossing a street after the light turns green? Or did they make a decision they'll have to live with now?
To be expected, I am afraid, of younger people. All about themselves.

G1911 05-19-2021 12:05 PM
.

G1911 05-19-2021 12:08 PM
.

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104682)
Yep, not taking a vaccine leads to us youth committing vehicular homicide. Totally reasonable perspective. Stellar argument.
For a smart guy you are completely missing his point.

packs 05-19-2021 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104681)
Yes, me not taking an experimental drug means I am likely to commit homicide. This kind of bullshit is exactly why I have 0 interest in participating in this madness. This is the dumbest thing I have read this week.
I was just distilling what you said to it's fundamentals, which is you make your decision for you and that's how it is for everyone else.

G1911 05-19-2021 12:13 PM
.

packs 05-19-2021 12:14 PM
Haha that's exactly what I said. It doesn't matter if your decision poses a risk to me because you made it and that's how it is.

G1911 05-19-2021 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104688)
Haha that's exactly what I said. It doesn't matter if your decision poses a risk to me because you made it and that's how it is.
If you are worried, get vaccinated. What risk do I possibly pose to you? Are you under the belief that your vaccine only works if I am also vaccinated?

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2104679)
To be expected, I am afraid, of younger people. All about themselves.
So if we don't want the vaccine, we should just take it anyway? For the sake of others?

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104691)
So if we don't want the vaccine, we should just take it anyway? For the sake of others?
I think it's a factor that should have a place in the thought process, I would not force anyone to do anything.
Earlier in the pandemic it pissed me off, for example, that many young people couldn't even give up their parties for the sake of contributing to protecting the rest of us. The nature of this disease is that the young aren't very much at risk but the older are. But the young can expose the old, particularly given asymptomatic transmission. To me that suggests the young bear some responsibility to society.

packs 05-19-2021 12:23 PM
The risk has been explained. I don't have a problem with someone not wanting to get the vaccine. But I do have a problem with that person standing next to me without a mask on. If you mask up, no issue.

G1911 05-19-2021 12:26 PM
.

packs 05-19-2021 12:27 PM
As has been explained ad nauseum the vaccine is not 100% effective and you will not know it didn't work for you until you get sick.

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104697)
As has been explained ad nauseum the vaccine is not 100% effective and you will not know it didn't work for you until you get sick.
95 at best and likely that will go down with mutations, I believe.

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104694)
The risk has been explained. I don't have a problem with someone not wanting to get the vaccine. But I do have a problem with that person standing next to me without a mask on. If you mask up, no issue.
In other words, you don't trust the effectiveness your vaccine?

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104699)
In other words, you don't trust the effectiveness your vaccine?
It appears to greatly improves one's odds, but isn't a guarantee.

packs 05-19-2021 12:31 PM
What does trust have to do with anything? I'm told over and over again that it is not 100% effective. If you don't want to get the vaccine, fine. But since you already know it's not 100% effective for everyone who does, what is so wrong with wearing a mask if you're not going to be vaccinated?

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104702)
What does trust have to do with anything? I'm told over and over again that it is not 100% effective. If you don't want to get the vaccine, fine. But since you already know it's not 100% effective for everyone who does, what is so wrong with wearing a mask if you're not going to be vaccinated?
God forbid anyone inconvenience himself one iota.

G1911 05-19-2021 12:35 PM
.

packs 05-19-2021 12:36 PM
None of the posts have been about forcing a vaccine on you. The posts have been about wearing a mask if you choose not to be vaccinated.

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104704)
So I should take a vaccine that was rushed out the door and is still not fully approved or tested, because you don’t think it’s efficacy is good enough for you, and my health choices for myself are not as important as me making health choices for you?

I guess it’s because I am a horrible young person that this makes no sense whatsoever.
What a crock. All packs said is if you're going to stand next to him please wear a mask. Your initial post made some very good points but you aren't sustaining it. Total straw man.

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104702)
What does trust have to do with anything? I'm told over and over again that it is not 100% effective. If you don't want to get the vaccine, fine. But since you already know it's not 100% effective for everyone who does, what is so wrong with wearing a mask if you're not going to be vaccinated?
Actually, I do still where a mask most places, but not all.

But for the sake of your argument, let's assume I never wear a mask. Why is the burden on me? If YOUR vaccine isn't 100% effective and YOU'RE concerned about still contracting it, shouldn't YOU be the one wearing the mask? :confused:

packs 05-19-2021 12:38 PM
I didn't make the vaccine. I'm asking you to wear a mask out of respect for me and everyone else around you. I wear my mask for the same reason even though I am vaccinated.

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104709)
I didn't make the vaccine. I'm asking you to wear a mask out of respect for me and everyone else around you. I wear my mask for the same reason even though I am vaccinated.
And how much longer would you like me to wear it?

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104708)
Actually, I do still where a mask most places, but not all.

But for the sake of your argument, let's assume I never wear a mask. Why is the burden on me? If YOUR vaccine isn't 100% effective and YOU'RE concerned about still contracting it, shouldn't YOU be the one wearing the mask? :confused:
The burden is on you just like the rest of us because you are part of society, like it or not.

packs 05-19-2021 12:42 PM
I don't think it's predicated on length of time. We're talking about mutual respect for people in public at this moment.

G1911 05-19-2021 12:48 PM
.

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104715)
What’s a crock is this one way street wherein I have some ethical obligation to make my decisions based on your fears. The second you alter your life to suit my narratives, I will do the same for you.
Peter / Packs,

When have you ever made a decision about your own health and thought about how it might effect others? Name a time. I'll wait.

packs 05-19-2021 12:53 PM
When I found out there was a novel communicable disease I wore a mask when in public for the benefit of myself and others. Something I continue to do.

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104719)
When I found out there was a novel communicable disease I wore a mask when in public for the benefit of myself and others. Something I continue to do.
I'm talking about before this pandemic. Do I need to reword the question?

Pre-pandemic, when have you ever made a decision about your own health and thought about how it might effect others? Name a time. I'll wait.

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 12:56 PM
Did you ever wear a mask during flu season to protect others? :confused:

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 12:57 PM
Do you cover your entire body so that a mosquito can't bite you and transmit Zika virus or West Nile virus to others?

packs 05-19-2021 12:57 PM
Oh, excellent point. I get flu shots every year. I'm also a big believer in practicing safe sex.

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 12:59 PM
Since second hand smoke is a known cause of lung cancer, did you ever smoked a cigarette, cigar, pipe or anything else in public?

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104717)
Peter / Packs,

When have you ever made a decision about your own health and thought about how it might effect others? Name a time. I'll wait.
Until the pandemic, I haven't had to. Since the pandemic, despite thinking I probably have very good natural immunity based on my history, diet, etc., I've worn a mask any time I have gone out where there are other people. I certainly don't want to unwittingly infect anyone, and am willing to endure a minor inconvenience for their sake. And no this isn't virtue signaling, just an answer to the question.

G1911 05-19-2021 01:00 PM
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vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104725)
I get flu shots every year.
And as I've already stated, so do I.

But that wasn't the question.

They say the Covid vaccine is 95% effective. The flu vaccine is only 40-60% effective. The question was, do you wear a mask during flu season to protect others?

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2104730)
Until the pandemic, I haven't had to. Since the pandemic, despite thinking I probably have very good natural immunity based on my history, diet, etc., I've worn a mask any time I have gone out where there are other people. I certainly don't want to unwittingly infect anyone, and am willing to endure a minor inconvenience for their sake. And no this isn't virtue signaling, just an answer to the question.
In other words, you don't give a shit about people so you don't wear a mask during flu season and are willing to pass it on, right?

packs 05-19-2021 01:02 PM
No, I get the flu shot. I told you that.

Also, your question was what health decisions do I make with myself and others in mind.

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104734)
In other words, you don't give a shit about people so you don't wear a mask during flu season and are willing to pass it on, right?
When did any public health authority ever tell the public it should wear masks during flu season to control transmission? Feels like a fake point to me.

G1911 05-19-2021 01:06 PM
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vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2104736)
When did any public health authority ever tell the public it should wear masks during flu season to control transmission? Feels like a fake point to me.
Hmmm...I don't know. I'll actually have to research that.

What I do know is that masks were recommended in 2009 for H1N1. You wore one, right?

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104738)
Is it about the directives issued by the state, or protecting others? If masks save lives from Covid then they would also save them from the Flu in 2019. So you think one only has this ethical obligation if the state orders people to wear them? That is, it is not purely about some ethical standard you claim, but about following the governments orders?
Why the hell would I have had reason to even think about this in 2019? Pure hindsight argument combined with a straw man about the state. Give me a break. You started off well but you've gone way downhill.

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104739)
Hmmm...I don't know. I'll actually have to research that.

What I do know is that masks were recommended in 2009 for H1N1. You wore one, right?
I don't recall that at all.

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2104741)
I don't recall that at all.
You don't recall wearing one or you don't recall the recommendation?

Either way, the point I was trying to make is that until now neither of you ever gave a shit about anyone else when making a healthcare choice for yourself. Get over your self-righteousness.

G1911 05-19-2021 01:13 PM
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Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 01:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104742)
You don't recall wearing one or you don't recall the recommendation?

Either way, the point I was trying to make is that until now neither of you ever gave a shit about anyone else when making a healthcare choice for yourself. Get over your self-righteousness.
The recommendation.

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104743)
Because people died from the flu. Just like people die from Covid. If your argument is that I have an ethical obligation to wear a mask because you are scared and your vaccine is only 95% effective, but you are at no greater risk than a flue patient in 2019, it is fair to ask what you did when the danger was also tiny but present. It is you who used the excuse that the government didn’t order this for the flu. It is fair to then ask if our standard is ethical or based upon the orders of the state then. It seems that under your last argument I have to wear a mask around people depending on what governmental body has jurisdiction in that place and what they have directed, not the life-saving argument you first used.

I might be young, maybe I’m going downhill, but at least I don’t claim you have to live YOUR life according to MY whims.
But the flaw in your reasoning is that I had no reason to know or think about any of this in 2019, at least I was not aware of any public discourse on the subject.

Plus a lot of people haven't been vaccinated and are still at whatever their baseline risk was, so (assuming for argument's sake masks cut down on transmission) you're still exposing them even if you're not exposing me very much.

G1911 05-19-2021 01:22 PM
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Huysmans 05-19-2021 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104743)
Because people died from the flu. Just like people die from Covid. If your argument is that I have an ethical obligation to wear a mask because you are scared and your vaccine is only 95% effective, but you are at no greater risk than a flue patient in 2019, it is fair to ask what you did when the danger was also tiny but present. It is you who used the excuse that the government didn’t order this for the flu. It is fair to then ask if our standard is ethical or based upon the orders of the state then. It seems that under your last argument I have to wear a mask around people depending on what governmental body has jurisdiction in that place and what they have directed, not the life-saving argument you first used.

I might be young, maybe I’m going downhill, but at least I don’t claim you have to live YOUR life according to MY whims.
You're making the best points by far here, and showing that youth and intelligent reasoning are not mutually exclusive.

... ignore the straw man and "going downhill" comments, they speak of the inability of others here to argue your points...

packs 05-19-2021 01:24 PM
We're talking about signs of respect not living life as the perfect example of humanity. At this moment in time, it is respectful to wear a mask in public, the same way it would be respectful for you to smoke your cigarette outside instead of in my living room. It is possible to accomplish both being respectful and doing what you'd like to do. If you don't want to get the vaccine, totally fine. Wear a mask around me and do whatever you like away from me. Why fight against that?

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2104746)
The recommendation.
CDC article from 2009...

https://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/masks.htm

I'll infer that didn't give a crap about the health of others and failed to wear a mask as recommended by the CDC.

vintagetoppsguy 05-19-2021 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by packs (Post 2104754)
Wear a mask around me and do whatever you like away from me. Why fight against that?
You just gave yourself up. It's all about YOU! If it were about others, you would say to wear a mask around them too.

packs 05-19-2021 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104756)
You just gave yourself up. It's all about YOU! If it were about others, you would say to wear a mask around them too.
I say you because in this case it's someone specific who doesn't want to wear a mask. I've already said I wear mine even with a vaccination. I don't need to convince myself to do that.

G1911 05-19-2021 01:31 PM
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Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2104750)
You are unaware that thousands of people die from the flu every year, especially seniors and those with immune system diseases? The fact that the flu can be lethal (more lethal than Covid if you are 95% immune to Covid) is completely new to you?

What a crock. The difference is that it wasn’t a virtue signal of moral superiority in 2019.
Of course I understand that, but tell me who in 2019 was suggesting I wear a mask to protect others? And if nobody was, why would I have had reason to come to that conclusion myself?

packs 05-19-2021 01:34 PM
I'm sorry but that doesn't really make a lot of sense. I'm wearing a mask as a precaution for both of us. How can I be disrespectful in that situation?

Peter_Spaeth 05-19-2021 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 2104755)
CDC article from 2009...

https://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/masks.htm

I'll infer that didn't give a crap about the health of others and failed to wear a mask as recommended by the CDC.
You should actually read what you link to.

In community and home settings, the use of facemasks and respirators generally are not recommended.

G1911 05-19-2021 01:37 PM
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G1911 05-19-2021 01:38 PM
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packs 05-19-2021 01:39 PM
You've lost me. If you ask me to smoke a cigarette at your gas station I'm going to decline and it won't be because I don't respect your desires.


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