Hi everyone. There's a great scene in the movie Margin Call where Risk Analyst Peter Sullivan (played by Zachary Quinto) tells CEO John Tuld (played by Jeremy Irons) that if the company's assets of mortgage-backed securities were to drop by just 25% and remain on the books, that loss would be greater than the current market capitalization of the entire company.

With that in mind, I wonder if PSA were to pay out on their guarantee on every single altered card, if that payout would be greater than CLTC’s current market capitalization of $217M. Based on what I have read here and on Blowout Cards, I’m not confident it would not.

But they aren't paying on the guarantee. They've successfully deflected the responsibility back on the sellers, reducing their liability.

For example, card graded A =200 graded 5= 1000 graded 6= 2000

Instead of paying the owner 1800 for a card altered from a 5 to a 6, they have them return it, and maybe pay the scammer 800. Unless they have some excuse to not pay the seller, perhaps referring them back up the chain to whoever altered it who they probably don't have to pay.

Brilliant, but scummy.

I think it is brilliant also. The problem is like we seen on here with the T3 Cobb and Dan McKee. If the sale wasn't through eBay and recent enough for eBay/PayPal to force a refund the cards owner is out of other options. With private sales and older sales the seller just tells the buyer to pound sand.

I think that's the strategy because it's a violation of their TOS to knowingly submit altered cards. So, if they can push the refunds back to the submitter, they won't have to pay anything.

Class action suit will follow...

We can only hope...

Joe D turns over a new Leaf.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4137

Mercy another whitewashed Leaf Jackie graded by SGC.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4141

And there's a very simple solution - stop buying graded cards. Period. Full stop. Never buy another graded card in your life. And you will solve this problem.

But no one will do that.

So PSA, Moser and PWCC will win.

I understand the sentiment, but the statement that card alterations would disappear if we stopped buying graded cards- is wishful thinking at best.

You know what's really interesting (for me, anyway)? I like that card better as a 1 Poor. Has more character. The doctoring really sucked the life out of it.

That’s correct and you and I both know this will never happen....people are gonna have to accept the fact the industry is loaded with fraud and manipulation or move on and find a new hobby to be passionate about it’s sad.....to many people are making money so they keep hush....

Oh a civil lawsuit?

It will go down drastically as the easy money incentive with disappear.

another on the 5k or more profit list.

True- alterations will never disappear, but would definitely be lessened to a large degree. The risk/reward payoff for card doctors and corrupt dealers would take a giant hit. The reason that Moser and others are doing this in such huge volume, is attributed to the huge paybacks they receive for a single numerical bump. Without the grading insanity, their ROI would be a fraction of what they are currently getting by manipulating the TPGs.

In addition, collectors would pay a hell of a lot less for any mistakes made than they're paying now. The current situation is simply "minting" tons of money for Doctors, Dealers and the TPGs. Perhaps it's time that the balance of power shifted away from them, and back to the collector. :rolleyes:

I've bought very few. probably under 20. I have sent some to SGC to be graded, but not for a while.

Cleaned T206 SGC Young in current PWCC
 

Grade unchanged, but apparent stain removal, same National submission as cards previously identified as cleaned, a Leaf Jackie and a CJ Joe Jackson.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1306000

Leaf Ted Williams trimmed
 

Very very well said.....I’m in full agreement 😊

They are even doing it on cheap cards and making $50!

Maybe those were a swing and a miss, but doubtful any card that could be conserved wasnt

That's a naive take in my opinion. Everything isn't just black and white. There's an in-between. What about those of us who were new to collecting and paid the money to preserve and grade our legitimate cards only to get 1's and 2's because we had no clue this stuff was going on?

Personally, I was new to all of this in the last decade. Here's a bit of a glimpse to the other side. I'm sure we're not the only people with this experience. My dad and I had a growing collection and when trying to navigate what to do with our cards we saw "oh wow PWCC/Probstein/Novella have the same cards as us, they're crappy looking but got a 7 or 8 and sold for ridiculous amounts, surely our cards will get a better grade!" We learned the hard way, especially with PSA. It didn't matter what our cards looked like. Because we were submitting a mere 10 at a time no way in hell were we getting grades like those submitting 100 cards at a time. That's why we switched to SGC.

At the end of the day there are many people out there like me who had their unaltered cards graded completely unaware of what was going on behind the scenes. Some of us actually have legit graded cards. They're not all involved in this mess. Don't hate on those of us who have followed the rules and stayed true to our hobby.

There's still a ton of information that has yet to come out before we know how deep this really goes. This is just the infancy stage. Some rather interesting new quotes, and damning implications pertaining to the TPGs on pages 177 and 178 of the Blowout Mantle/PWCC thread.

Link...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=177

N300 Anson, from an A to a 5. Jeez.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=182

Wow that’s bad real bad.....PSA is striking out big time.....

Add one to the refund line.

Card looked trimmed to begin with not sure how it got into a holder the second time whether or not it was recolored or just cleaned.

Can wait 6 months or more, afterall what choice does he have...

doesnt even make the 5k or more list..

Wowzers. Thanks Mark for the specific pages. Also, I vividly remember that Anson (both times) and checking back here on N54 to see if anyone was calling it out. Something certainly seemed fishy to me at the time.

Yes Agree.....Peter.

So many bad bad cards in holders with grades.

I’m not giving PWCC or the Doctors a pass by any stretch however......

My question is will PSA lose it’s credibility in the industry ??

How can any auction houses Or dealer have confidence selling/auctioning cards in PSA holders that were not submitted by themselves??

I have a feeling this years national is gonna be scary for many dealers...idk

Johnny I don't know. I think so many people may be so invested that it's going to be a case of the emperor's new clothes and people are just going to pretend nothing's wrong or if it is it's just message board chatter.

I’m fearful of that as well Peter. We have both been around way to long to think otherwise....one can only hope.

If PSA is paying out claims i see them raising their credibility. If you buy a raw card from someone and it turns out trimmed....good luck to you getting your money back

This one takes the cake as the absolute worst of the worst to me

Ray Charles could have seen this....

Mr. Orlando could you please explain what’s your Opinion On this One??

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=14874068

Wow!! :eek:

What a complete and utter joke PSA is!! :mad:

You need to scroll up to see it...

Superdan coined it The Impressionist "Claude Monet Ruth" :D

In snobbish art critic voice...
I personally think it's more of an Abstract piece, with an influence that lies somewhere between Rothko and Pollock. Amazingly, the blades of grass appear both vertical and horizontal, with mixed shades of green that imply a subtle Moser influence as well. Reminiscent of a very early Moser masterpiece, circa kindergarten or perhaps first grade.

Bravo, PSA!

57 Mantle 6 to 8
Refund pile.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4608

Awful
Mr. Orlando your Opinion Givers are lousy

Never


Get


wait for it




Cheated

His company is FAKE NEWS OPINION GIVERS

It's staggering what the average, good faith collector or even investor is up against in terms of the institutions that dominate this hobby. Good Lord. And just look at the contemptuous response from Orlando, putting down the people trying to call it all out as a handful spreading fear or whatever obnoxious words he used.

Right it’s sad they spend their hard earned money for this.....most are so naive and green they don’t even have a clue...I feel for them.....these past few months have really been brutal ever day we wake up to more garbage

The pompous arrogance from PSA really hits home.....when they should be ashamed of their opinions they boast about the.

59 Mantle 7 to 8.5
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4621

Terrible !!!

Always get cheated

Old Judge Keefe Bat 4 to 7 5K gain

Not sure it makes the refund pile, it's "only" chemically cleaned apparently.
I mean conserved.
Long live the tenets.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4629

Next we will see cards like this in Newport Beach Opinion Givers Holders disintegrate over time.....card is prob the consistency of peanut brittle

Just WOW!

A $5,360 profit from a chemical bath that took a few minutes to execute.

This one is so sad, as the Keefe card had beautifully survived for 132 years, relatively unscathed. Now it has chemicals leaching throughout, within its tomb. Who knows what level of deterioration will occur within that slab over the next 132 years?

Hopefully the new owner who paid $6,600 for the card will see this, and get proper restitution. :(

The cleaned cards, I think we read the other day, are not being dealt with yet. And with due respect to Net 54 and Blowout, the odds that the owner is on the forums much less actively keeps up with this thread or the Blowout thread are relatively low.

But the flip, my friend.... the flip is what counts.

I thought Lichtman said something about PWCC voluntarily reaching out to clients who were impacted. I know that it's a "needle in a haystack" for the new owner to be reading these forums, and to see it.

So chemical treatments don't count to them, as being returnable? Seems like a lot more than just a "cleaning", and should definitely be classified as reimbursable (along with trimmed and re-colored examples). That really stinks, if indeed true. :mad:

Jeff said
Buyers are being notified by email and phone. The first round of buyers are those who bought clearly altered cards, i.e. trimming and recoloring. The more grey stuff (cleaning, pressed corners) is being mostly put on the back burner for now except in egregious cases. This is all a fluid situation subject to my discussions with the government. It’s not a perfect situation but it’s more perfect than anything that has ever occurred previously in fraud cases in the hobby.

Not all chemicals will do that. The biggest problem is that we don't know what was used and what effects it has long term.

Seaver RC
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4731

Ryan RC.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4732

T206 Johnson Portrait
 

Peter, I have not even looked at the T206 Yet but on the Seaver and Ryan Rookies how is PSA missing the re-coloring/glossing of these cards??? Are they even looking at these ??? Geez they're awful !!

The stakeholders will fix it, patience.

Add this card to the $5000 or more list

add to the $5000 or more list..


I wonder if Auction Houses that sell cards now and to the future will refund if a buyer finds out about their card was altered based on information the Auction House could of researched prior to auction..

Tough to say, but I doubt it. They would never have the time to do the diligent and deep research necessary to uncover all of these in advance. Isn't that what PSA's supposed "guarantee" is for, anyway? They are the ones supposedly spending the time examining these, and determining the appropriate grade. They should be the ones held accountable.

The only reason PWCC is giving refunds is that they are directly responsible for the current and past deception, and are acting upon the advice of their attorney. Otherwise, I doubt there would be any restitution for those who've been defrauded.

Would Love to Find Out Who Submitted these Cards for the Doctor/Doctors..... who's invoices are these on....there are way more guys other than the one we have all be talking about...first things first...who is submitting the cards exposed as altered for whitman111???

We all seem to be targeting on PWCC and yes they're crummy.... doctors and PSA are also crummy.....Who is gonna roll who is gonna be the fall guy??

Will be interesting to see this unfold......Vintage Non Sport is the Only Thing Keeping me Going

PSA is an option for refund. However the auction houses can refund the buyer and they go after PSA for their refund.

You would think the 4 months or whatever an auction house prepares for an auction they could do a little digging on a 50k card to see if it was altered and PSA made a mistake before using that card as marketing to bring more eyeballs to their auction for example

Yeah, it would be a nice gesture... and maybe some day we'll get to that point. But when you consider the sheer number of cards that appear in any of the major Catalogue Auctions, they'd never have the time/resources to deeply research them all.

If you mean for them to simply spot-check the published lists of suspected altered cards.... then yes, that would probably be doable. But if you mean for them to conduct the actual research (like the guys on BO are doing), then it will likely never happen. I suppose they could hire a staff person in charge of research, but the added cost of implementing the process would probably just result in higher Buyer and Seller Premiums.

And isn't this what the TPAs are supposed to be doing, anyway? I know the current ones are failing badly, and if anyone is liable for recourse, it should be them.

Not accepting consignments from card doctors might help. Just sayin. I would guess more do than don't. There are a few that don't, to their credit.

Now come to think of it, that would be a good starting point!

The same stakeholders who are going to fix the problem have been accepting them since day one. Many of them, that is.

How many collectors have enough restraint to no longer do business with any major AH who knowingly accepts consignment cards from known doctors along with ceasing any Newport Beach Opinion Giver Submissions until accepting responsibility /coming up with a viable solution to prevent this from continuing to happen on this large scale. . They have all be complacent in allowing this S&&T to go on this long.

Is what I’m asking for to much for these AH’s ?? AH’s mean Ass Ho$les

Come to Chicago this week and see them lined up to give them their money.

What auction houses knowingly accept consignments from card doctors outside of PWCC? I'm happy to no longer do business with them if I knew who they were.

I have been doing that for many many years already. You can go back and search my posts. I have been calling PWCC and PSA a scam since I joined here and had been doing it way longer than that.:)

The lemmings are many in this hobby.:eek:

At least one small-timer is waiting to see a resolution before sending cards to Newport Beach. I had a batch ready to go, but Orlando's statement made me weary. It's sitting in my cabinet, waiting until I'm confident the investment will be worth it.

I doubt I'm the only one.

They don't care about tiny little chumps like me though. That much is clear.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

You’re correct I’ve been saying this for weeks......until this affects their bottom line there will be zero change.....that’s just my thinking on it.

right just a spot check of published list of suspected cards would be nice..

can be a list of $5000 and up cards that could be checked...only one click etc..

I haven't kept this thread current figuring people can follow Blowout if they care, but this one seemed worth posting. Someone please tell me this sort of "cleaning" is OK because I keep hearing there is no consensus.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5276

I do not feel it is ok to use bleaching or other chemicals and I think it should be considered an alteration. I think it’s fine to use water or natural means to get dirt and removable stains off, but these chemicals are akin to repainting or recoloring- they create a new and unnatural layer of coloring or fundamentally alter the underlying color, so as to fundamentally alter the card.

That's certainly been my understanding in the decades I've been collecting, but as I said, I keep hearing that's not a consensus view and that many people share PWCC's self-serving view that using peroxide or whatever they're using to clean cards is OK.

Push TGP’s Industry standards to change to avoid any liability or litigation.......what a bunch of cons....nothing they do or try to do shocks me anymore.

That particular card is a tough call. If , and that's a big if, the stains are from the caramel on the crackerjacks, it's possible that water would be enough.
But I really think that staining is something else. Mostly because of the card shaped clean area on the back. The stains that didn't come out might be, which would lead me to think the de-staining material was a oil based solvent like mineral spirits.

If it's from having been in a really acidic scrapbook, or envelope, it's possible that the deacidification products the pros (Like museums, not Moser?) use would whiten as they deacidify. If that's the case, then it's probably ok, but should still be disclosed, as that much acidity has already damaged the paper.

If it's just bleached in a barely above amateur hour attempt at making it look better.... nope, not a good thing.

In my opinion there is no way that card got so much whiter (look at the front) from water.

Yes, most probably not water.

I did a bit of looking up on how deacidification is done, and I have become convinced it's been bleached.

I still feel a bit mixed about that. If it's done right, as in the way professionals do it with art, I think it won't do damage. The biggest problem is that there's no disclosure, especially of the method. And without that, here's no way to get a feel for the actual skill of who did it.