http://www.sportscardradio.com/gary-...-bidding-scam/

Among other things, claims Gary shill bid his own consignments. Pretty comprehensive in scope.

Hahahahaha!!! Now they're trying to redefine shill bidding. If you bid on your OWN FREAKING CARD, it's shill bidding.
Yikes.

And if PSA wants to have any more of my business, EVERY CARD SUBMITTED BY THESE DOCTORS needs to be removed from the certification system and refunded.

Sports Card Radio was provided data of a recent 225 card PSA submission submitted by, or on the behalf of, Moser.

135 of those cards were placed in the PWCC Marketplace 2019 Premium Auction #3.

An eBay account associated with Moser, whitman111, placed a bid on 31 of the 135 cards submitted, resulting in two winning bids.

"A shill bid is a bid placed with no intent to honor "


Wrong again

It's like hitting the daily double, winning an altered card that was shill bid.

Unfortunately most of the other doctors left little or no paper trail, IMO. BO has named a few guys but it goes well well well beyond them.

It's crazy that they are even getting away with recoloring. I mean I can understand how trimming can get past the PSA graders but recoloring the back of a high dollar t206 card. How do you miss that?

See Demmitt post:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2204

Conventional wisdom was always a blacklight would pick that up. I have no idea what to think.

People are all over PSA and BGS. You don't have your eyes open, apparently. You're talking jibberish. I mean the post just 5 ahead of yours pointed out a boycott of PSA and BGS graded cards. Are we supposed to take you seriously.

:eek: crazy...

Ummm...yes, you do. You just don't want to admit it.

David, do you believe David Hall, Joe Orlando and/or Steve Sloan have overtly or tacitly approved the knowing grading of altered cards, or do you think some submitters have a grader on the inside?

Let's flesh out your conspiracy theory.

Unless I'm completely ignorant regarding how the serial numbers work on the slabbed cards, I'd say you are not correct. The PSA 8.5 has a lower serial number than the PSA 6. So based on your evidence it appears the PSA 8.5 was broken out of its slab, sent to PSA to be graded again, and was given a 6. And that is something to be worried about? Am I missing something here?

I'm Glass half full
 

I hope the industry (TPG, auctioners, etc) response will lift us above this to put us in a better spot at the end of the day.

The hobby is too big for there not to be a measured response; its make or break and their mouse trap is threatened.... I think they will build a better mousetrap to re-instill confidence in our hobby at the end of the day.

The fact that we have this forum and BO to identify bad players and force the hands of TPGs to prevent their name from being besmirched, makes me think we will come out better from this.....

Buy special hobby paint that doesn’t have optical brighteners added to it?

Edit - This may not be the same card.

This investigation will focus on PWCC, Brent Huigens, Gary Moser and now Bobby Binder at VCP, who foolishly got himself involved with his implausible eBay story. The good news Bobby is we won’t be the ones you need to convince so start compiling those emails from eBay because I suspect you’re going to need them soon.

The latter.

This is all a lot to keep up with but also part of why I came back to the board. I'm very rarely on BO but what's posted over there has been helpful. In talking to Leon yesterday many of us seem to be in the same boat in hoping our cards weren't involved in this mess. Any chance we could have a specific members only thread somewhat like the BST to solely share pics/links to the pre-war cards involved in all of this? Could be a good first step in narrowing things down on the pre-war side. I mean, for us, the difference between a 3 changed to a 4 is a big deal. Thoughts?

At this point, it truly would not surprise me. In a way it would be a relief, as it would show the company as a whole wasn't as awful at this as it now is starting to seem.

Believe it or not Betsy is technically correct with her definition of shilling. An owner is allowed to bid on his or her items in most, if not all states, as long as they pay if and when they win. Now many auction houses (including mine) see the ethical flaw in the law, especially as it pertains to online auctions. Hell Ebay won't let you bid on your own offerings. If you don't believe me check the UCC I believe it's somewhere around 235. Peter and I discussed this a couple years back and he was surprised to see it in black and white as I recall. Of course the gulf between legal and ethical can be a wide one...

They're different cards, even though the stain you mention is very similar. The defects in the red area on the back just below the No. 123 white baseball diamond are very different on each card.

While each submission goes in numerical order, two orders next to each other may be vastly different.

That is totally unreal. Redefining everything these days.

Me too....

Scott I recall a discussion about retracting that surprised me but you may well be right we discussed this too.

Crap you're right, it was retracting (a related subject to be sure), however having had to study this stuff specifically to get my license I'm sure I could track down this info too!

Thanks. It was already pointed out to me by another member. I jumped the gun on that one.

Darn it Howard, I thought you had one! :)
If not for my recent training in "cardboard forensics" by 312, Corndog and Superdan on the BO forum I would have agreed with you!

Wowzers! Thanks Scott for being honest. I think you're on point. I'll leave it at that.

Here's a link to the UCC by state if anyone wants to check it out: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/table_ucc

eBay is a worldwide website. I'm sure nobody bids in their auctions from any of the states that don't specifically allow bidding on your own auctions. Does their definition agree with the eBay Terms of Service?

How would anyone feel if their cards were sitting in "The Vault" right now? To you lawyers out there, could those cards be seized as evidence?

I don't know of the sale, but rust and corrosion is what you look for on the back on antique pins because it's a sign of authenticity. A shinney backed 1880s-1910s tobacco pin would be out of the ordinary.

I'd never put my cards in "The Vault" to begin with but I can only hope they'd be seized as evidence. The sooner they can figure this out the better.

Agree w/you! Not everything is a conspiracy. I appreciate Bobby of VCP being on this board and explaining what happened to him and his business. I could be a fool later but the responses make sense to me! No reason to cancel anything except a PWCC bid at this point!

I closed my eBay store (we focused primarily on rare books) twice in the last two years and eBay and PayPal are still saying we owe $11. Years later. They're a hot mess.

I'll give Bobby the benefit of the doubt. I don't use his website and don't know if those images were there to begin with. Thanks for answering the questions; I was just the messenger.

I think you missed a rather key player... the people who authenticated all of this crap.

I noticed many of the images on VCP, both front and back disappeared when PWCC setup their own "history" section of their website. Maybe they moved images around or renamed them and the software VCP uses lost track of them. This was last year I think. I don't know how the software works.

+1

Troy, I wouldn’t go so far to call you a fool, but let’s see how you feel when Bobby and VCP are proven not to be telling the truth. I just feel badly Bobby allowed himself to unnecessarily become apart of this but I will have to assume his relationship with Brent trumped common sense.

You should read some of the other posts. And yes always take me seriously. Unless I'm joking.

I suspect it will start with Brent and Moser because that is the simplest to prove. Then they will decide if they will roll on any of the PSA guys to save their own skin as much as they possibly can.

The PSA guys have been horrible and nasty to me at the Philly Show. And I have names. I would like to write about it I don't want another call from Leon!

Check out this gem!

At this point I am sure I have altered cards in my collection makes me want to vomit!

http://www.sportscardradio.com/gary-...-bidding-scam/

Does PSA still formally claim that multiple graders review each card? I am sure they did at one point.

We've been discussing that for hours my friend.

I want to add this because everyone seems to be singling out PSA. I think this activity also goes on with SGC.....

We look forward to this. You won't have an issue with Leon.

I'd hope you wouldn't call me or anyone else a fool and we can certainly agree to disagree but when all of this is sorted out, I'm happy to say I'm wrong if I am just as I hope you are.

No doubt there's some bad stuff happening here but it's likely not at the feet of VCP. With the explanations given by VCP on this thread, I just can't see why the VCP people would risk all of their business for something which is likely rounding to the P&L statement. All of the explanations seem reasonable to me but I can appreciate not everyone shares my viewpoint. We'll see what happens!

I was weeding!

I don't know the tech side of it but I don't see any glaring holes in Bobby's explanations either. Are people saying he somehow sabotaged only one seller's scans, only their back scans, and only for certain years? And all to aid in the coverup of fraud?

A good metaphor for some of this, hopefully.

Is that what they're calling it these days? We used to say we were pulling BH's. :D

PWCC created a sales history section on their own website last year (Market history?). I noticed that when they did this some of the older PWCC scans that were on VCP went blank. I specifically recall this because I thought PWCC might be trying to take some of VCP's business for itself. It could be that when PWCC added the new section the location of the scan files changed and they were cut off from VCP software? There seems to be a couple of people who want the scan removal to be a conspiracy though.

you my friends are absolutely correct. I won't be bidding on any baseball cards PERIOD

:confused:Will you be refraining from posting here?

Meanwhile......Brent and R.P. are laughing all the way to the bank...

No, it's probably fake.:D. like the signed Jordan Jersey.

For now. So too were Bill and Doug, I suspect.

With the slap on the wrist Bill got I bet he is still laughing, I know I would be.

Unfortunately, not :D

:o lol

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Your name is out here. Say what you want to. No more calls from me unless it is to talk cards.

No one is laughing.

Is that legal in Minnesota now?:D

You can't change the definition of a commonly accepted term to avoid liability; criminal or civil.
"your honor, I define murder as death by shooting. I only stabbed him 47 times."

This is beyond absurd. these people need to stop talking.

no frank...not yet!

It's entertaining when they do, though.

Bobby, VCP still has my total support. You guys are hands down the best price guide out there and I find your service extremely helpful and valuable.

So after a very long day and some lengthy conversations we have been given the go ahead for now to start posting the buyer coded information once again.

So now I see that I have conspired to remove back images with PWCC to match up with his historical data in his Market Price Research deal. That is very laughable, what do I get to gain from any of it?

Believe me when they launched that along with PSA launching theres as well did not make us feel too good. But you know what having all that data is great, the important part is what you do with that data. And what VCP does with the data is far superior.

I'm showing that the links to the prior auctions now only go back roughly 6 months, to December 2018.

Pretty sure last weekend there were links to all the prior auctions. I definitely know it went further back than December 2018 for auction houses like REA, Heritage, Memory Lane, etc. I honestly can't recall if the eBay auction links went back further than that, but I sort of recall that they did.

Something changed in regard to that, no?

I'm out on PWCC. Already passed on some cards pretty high on my want list. Stuff certainly doesn't trump all for me, particularly if I think there is an issue with regard to legitimacy. Hopefully others will make the same decision. It is beyond clear, at least to me, that they are dirty.

I've never personally submitted a single card to PSA so that's not an issue for me. I had a friend submit 4, all of which ironically came back as an A. Guess I didn't know the right people and I thought they were dead wrong on at least 2, but I still sold them as A's. I was previously a SGC guy but quit that when the Mastro shill list came out and Forman was on it. Haven't submitted to SGC since.

I am currently withholding judgment and watching carefully (and hopefully thoughtfully) about what is purportedly going on with VCP. I will make that decision when I think I have enough evidence. I'm not there yet.

Ebay links expire on VCP when they expire in eBay usually about 90 days. We did not change anything there just put back the buyers coded name again

I just checked a random card and it goes back to 2006. Not sure what you are seeing. The links themselves never went back very far I don't think.

Let them talk, then the hole gets deeper!

Who on earth is advising them.

+1

I'm laughing.

I find this entire thread incredibly funny.

The people who get paid for their opinions are just going to slide down in their cellar and wait for the storm to blow over, then back to business as usual.

Doug "everybody gets exactly what they pay for" Goodman