+1 . . . . too many people living in glass houses trying to throw stones!

He would still finish last.

The gist seems to be that people have their own ethics and would prefer that those be honored by disclosure. I haven't heard anyone say you can't soak or clean a card. Instead people are saying overwhelmingly that it should be disclosed upon sale.

This thread is getting comical. I mean, I get people's take from both sides, but why do people against soaking cards think it's so unethical? If the water or chemicals do not affect the card, why care? I don't agree with trimming, recoloring, rolling out wrinkles, etc,. but if what is being done is simply cleaning up the card with no side effects, what's the big deal?

And what's up with the common sense comments? Who made the rules about ethics around here anyway? I'm totally against a chemical/water that will alter a card in the long run, but until then we have no proof.

My statement you quoted wasn't referring to just disclosure. It's a combination of many things - soaking, cutting pictures out of old magazines, whatever. Some people try and make you feel stupid if you don't see things from their point of view.

As far as disclosure, there have been many, many threads over the years on soaking cards. Many, many board members have admitted to soaking. I am one of them. I've soaked several cards, some with good results and some with bad. And if many people on this board admit to soaking, just think of how many non-members are out there who soak as well. Here's the kicker, Alex. Go search eBay for "T206 soaked" or "T206 stain removed." Guess how many results you get? Zero. Now search again, but replace the word "T206" with the word "Topps." How many results now? Still zero. So, of the thousands and thousands of cards that have ever been soaked, is it that none of them just never get listed on eBay, or is it that people don't disclose it? I think you know the answer.

My opinion is why disclose that if no harm is ever going to come from it and it's never going to make any difference whatsoever? Again, that's just my opinion, everybody else is entitled to theirs as well. Every one of us has to do what we think is right.

That's all true, but we like you anyway.

I like you too, Scott :D

No, previous posts show that the attitude toward disclosure of soaking vs disclosure of chemical cleaning is overwhelmingly NOT the same.

You won't after I give my 'Noah' review :)

Saw it for about 10 minutes tonight and had to leave because of a family emergency (my wife's family). I'm going to spoil it for you, Scott. They're all white and speak in English :D

I'm almost finished, Ron. When is the deadline?;)

Sorry to hear about your family emergency, David. But regarding the movie, I just got back from it two hours ago, so spoil away.

If you want my spoiler, here it is: it isn't a literal interpretation of the Bible, and they used real actors. You'll hate it.

Duke looks pretty solid. :D:D:D

Sound advice, Ron.

I'm going to go with a Duke-Kansas final.

I like underdogs.:D:D:D:D

I went with Duke/Michigan State. In my other bracket I went with N.Carolina and Duke.

I can't wait for football season.

If it gets people talking, I'll consider that a win.

+1

Bravissimo!

Never-mind, I figured it out :)

If that's all it takes, then most everything in life is a win. But this one is good, AND should get people talking. I'll start a thread over in the watercooler area, and hope we can avoid fighting, but I kinda doubt it.

freakhappy,

The big deal about soaking and cleaning a card is the same thing as rolling the odometer back on a vehicle. What the card and the vehicle has gone through during its "life" is NOT being accurately represented by what is seen AFTER the cleaning (or rolling back ofthe odometer).

Look, if a 30 year- old car has 75,000 miles on it and has only been owned and driven by a little old lady, there is an expectation of how well that car has been taken care of and what condition that car is in. Because of that, that car is most likely going to sell for more than the same car that has 200,000 miles on it and whose last owner was an 18 year - old boy.

The SAME thing with a baseball card.

Until the last 20 or so years, baseball cards were meant to be collected, traded, flipped and put in bicycle spokes. They were NOT originally intended to be kept in pristine condition. Before that, they were distributed in packaging that contributed to their condition not being pristine. So, when a card IS found in great condition, the price it sells for is going to be higher than if it were in lower condition.

Rolling the odometer back on a vehicle is illegal because 1) the price you pay for the vehicle is going to be higher than it otherwise would be and 2) the perception of what you are getting and the reality of what you are getting are two different things.

With vehicles, there are maintenance and safety issues that come up with an odometer being rolled back. With cards, you do NOT know what is going to happen in time with a card that has been cleaned. You (or your heirs) might literally be banking on that card staying in the same condition and appreciating in value. But jut think what happens when you overpay for a cleaned card and either 1) the technology comes into play and it can be proven the card has been cleaned, 2) the card deteriorates or 3) both things happen.

How happy are you going to be then?

Finally, for those who think cleaning a card is okee dokey, I am sure if you have a card cleaned and the improved look causes the card to improve in grading, you ARE going to both disclose the card has been cleaned AND sell the card for the value of the lower grade, right?

David Smith

Gone with the stain. Dick Towle
 

I appreciate you enthusiasm, David...but your car analogy doesn't necessarily fit into this scenario. If we were solely debating altering cards in such a way like recoloring, trimming, rebuilding, then your analogy would be perfect.

There is a lot that still needs to be proved in the card soaking business before I totally think it's ok to do so, but as of right now, I have no proof that says it has bad long term effects, so I'm not against it per se.

IMO if your '57 Chevy was sitting in the garage for several years and accumulated dirt and grime...why not get it cleaned and looking better? These cards imo are just getting cleaned after so many years of collecting dirt and grime. I know it improves it's value most of the time because it is supposed to...you're cleaning the grime off of it! Will your '57 Chevy look better after the bath? Well, we both know the answer to that one...and the same applies to the cards.

Like I stated before, I'm not totally on board because who knows of the long term effects, but I'm not sure how one could be so one sided when debating this topic.

I wonder how many people would be totally shocked at how many of these cards have actually been soaked in water or cleaned with chemicals? I'm willing to bet over half of the t206's in existence have been soaked one way or another.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Finally, for those who think cleaning a card is okee dokey, I am sure if you have a card cleaned and the improved look causes the card to improve in grading, you ARE going to both disclose the card has been cleaned AND sell the card for the value of the lower grade, right?

David Smith[/QUOTE]

Your car analogy is interesting. Everyone who is against using water or cleaning cards in any manner MUST realize they do not know the whole history of their century old cards? They could have been washed or cleaned in the cards long life. Tons of old T206'sgraded 5-6-7 have evidence of scrapbooks etc. If you find out your favorite NM graded card was "altered" by cleaning with water or whatever will you have it re slabbed to reflect what you perceive as altered? I have never cleaned a card but I have an old T202 with M.Brown that has scrapbook paper stuck to it & after owning the card for 40 years I AM going to wash it!!! And to tell the truth I am kind of excited about it. I won't sell it & if I do a perfect job it could only grade a 1 or 1.5.

FS - 4 car lot
 

Up for auction today are four pristine examples from motoring history preserved with provenance from their original owners. The cars have never been altered in any way and I guarantee that or a full refund with be provided. Some might suggest that these beauties have been neglected, but I can assure you they have only been well loved since leaving the showroom floor. The Jeep in the lower right corner shows evidence of possibly being soaked. We believe in full disclosure in all our advertising.:) The cars you see are the cars you will get. This lot will not last long at $40,000 with free shipping. The first PM or email saying "I'll take 'em" wins. No fee PP preferred.;)

Funny! Your point is spot on as well!

We seem to have an emerging group of 'all or nothing' collectors;i.e-either you can't touch a card (no, if you spill oatmeal on it at breakfast, it has to be allowed to harden and can never be removed), or you can restore them completely - just like a painting - and in fact, you SHOULD, just like a painting.

The 'everything is black and white' approach seems kinda dumb to me - just sayin.

I would imagine that's because everything is a chemical or nothing is. Interesting, but now tiresome, debate.

This thread has provided a valuable service. Knowing who is for altering cards, and who is against altering cards should help board members in any future BST transactions.

Does Frank's Fine Auctions accept consignments? I have an old lever action Winchester that I would like to sell. It's pre-'64, so it's highly collectible. The gun is in pristine condition having never been cleaned. That's right, no solvent has ever touched the bore. Lots of rust and corrosion included to lend credibility.

I will sum up this thread from my view:

1.Most board members don't mind soaking a card or cleaning it with water.
2.Most board members mind it being cleaned with anything else.
3.Almost all board members don't approve of creases or wrinkles being removed.

As for me.....still on the fence but would generally fall into the categories above.

If and when pop reports become exceedingly top heavy, and those who otherwise wouldn't succumb (kind of like steroids), how long before the whole house of cards collapses?

4. The people who think it's OK for the most part won't disclose it.

Or a simple thought if you soak a card off a page with something you would let your kids drink. Or if you are removing stains with something you would rush your kid to the emergency room for drinking. Which do you think raises more eyebrows among collectors.

Nobody is arguing lots of cards got soaked off pages over the years from albums etc. with water. I think most are saying what Ryan and I have said water doesn't remove major stains and whiten cards to supernatural states.....that's using something else.

Having healthy breakfast is good for athletes might even give them an edge, however having a breakfast and a shot of steroids isn't the same thing IMO. I know....I know as long as you can't tell and enjoy the game what does it matter that the players are juiced as long as you can't tell. :D

John

For the record, and let me be very clear, if I soaked a card and honestly remembered it at the time of sale, I would certainly disclose it. My sales speak for themselves...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...+topps+schmidt

However, I don't have a problem with other sellers not disclosing it. I guess the reason for that is because I see nothing wrong with soaking. So, I'm not saying it's right for me, I'm just saying I don't have a problem with other sellers not doing it. In other words, if I were buying a card, it would make absolutely no difference to me at all fi the seller told me that it was previously soaked or not. It would not influence my buying decision.

FFA would be happy to accept your consignment, David, and would proudly offer you the highest consignment rate in the industry. Remember our guarantee that if you can find a higher consignment rate anywhere, we will match it.;)

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, families often spent a quiet evening together gluing cards and die cuts into scrapbooks. It's what people did when there was nothing good to watch on TV.

Many thousands of the cards that survive today owe their existence to the fact they were glued in. Otherwise, most of them would have been thrown out years ago.

Over time, so many have been soaked out of albums that it would be impossible to keep track of them. They are dispersed all over the hobby, and for the most part, the fact they were soaked is lost to history. It's silly to worry about it because they are everywhere. Many people have these cards in their collections and have no idea of it. Soaking seems to me a really minor process that should have no bearing on a card at all.

The first rule about the process...


...you dont talk about the process

exactly !!

Collecting
 

I have been collecting cards since 1957. I have never soaked or cleaned a card myself. I would be terrible at either. I have no idea if I have soaked or cleaned cards in my collection....and I do not care. It is just a hobby for fun to me. If it was an investment or business for me, I guess I would worry about this stuff. Glad it is not. When I am dead someone else can keep, sell, or burn my cards, I do not care. I just enjoy them now.

Televisions weren't mass produced until the 1930's. Most American families didn't have a television until the 1950's.

Dan, he was joking. I thought it was pretty funny. :D

In the violin world, an old instrument with a crack needs to be repaired. With a high quality repair, the value is retained. Revarnishing, however, detracts from the value.

In the art world, cleaning, flattening, even re-weaving are par of a curator's aegis.

It seems arbitrary to me, and just a bit peculiar, that in the card world there is such an insistence on the perpetuation of earlier damage, especially when methods exist that can effectively repair it.

I have never soaked a card, but it wouldn't bother me to find out that I own some that have had a bath.

This is awesome.

As has been stated, the reason for this is that for the most part baseball cards were produced in quantity and therefore relative condition is an important determinant of value. Restoration artificially manipulates relative condition.

First I will state I have never had the services of Mr Towle for any cards I have owned but have sent some people that way to have cards removed from scrapbooks and ect. I have also had many transactions with Dick and got several cards in my collection I have had for yrs from him. All were bought with nothing done to them per our conversations and there are several other guys I have spoke with that say the same. I do believe Dick only does cards sent to him so the guy to be upset with is the one that don't disclose that. Don't hate the man for making some extra scratch. I do not condone altering in any way but the removal of a stain or extra paper is ok as long as your not manipulating or adding to for the process to be completed. Look at how many cards have been soaked and pressed or something else. We probably all own an altered card of some type. Especially if you own a certain grading companies slabbed card. I know we all don't agree but that's my opinion about it.

Thanks David. It was indeed a joke.

I never thought I would see the day that so many people would make an argument that cleaning a card with chemicals is justifiable on Net54.

Put me in the "no thank you" camp on this one.

Sincerely, Clayton

I have never sold a card, and have no intention to do so. So money plays a limited role in the value of my cards, and that role decreases the farther I get from the point of sale. What matters is aesthetics, history, nostalgia, and stuff like that.

If my favorite shirt gets wrinkled, I iron it. If I'm playing my Martin guitar for my granddaughter, and she runs over and touches it with spaghetti-sauce hands, I'll clean it. If my sports car gets a dent, I take it to a great body shop. To me, the shirt, the guitar, and the car are better - worth more - for the attention.

As for artificial manipulation, it all depends on how you define words and where you draw lines. For me, removing glue or wrinkles (or spaghetti sauce or dents), is not intrinsically more artificial than applying them in the first place.

.........

Have a happy chemically-clean Sunday

He meant the Area51 chat board.

Seriously I have worked with Dick for years and HIGHLY recommend him and his son!

Thanks guys

Dan

Bump

This is deep, Bill. :)

Glad to see you posting!

His post was from 2014.

So it is. Hahahaha.

Agreed!! 100%. Unfortunately, maybe card collectors dont see it that way. And maybe people are mistaken.