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I will answer your question, though, because it appears arguably germane and is fair, and because of my exchanges with Frank. There were two reasons I sent in the other cards. One, I knew I'd be paying a bunch in registered mail for sending in just the Stengel, so I thought I'd add a couple more. More importantly, I was curious for myself to see if SGC might have some bias toward GAI, and I knew the other two cards were good--hell, I've owned them for many years and have examined them at length--whereas the Stengel looked funny to me pretty much right away. The other two came from long ago and far different places, so while it's possible they all could be deemed trimmed, I would have frowned very heavily on SGC's approach to things if the other two came back evid--trim. They did not--the Bancroft is 80, the Faber 86. I'm in this for the long haul, and don't do this to flip or make my money like the liar would suggest and as some of you follow.One day I hope to have all my cards in just one company's holders, but that will be when I sell or shortly before I die, both of which I hope are a ways off. Until then and as I mentioned to Frank, they're rather hodge podge and half or so raw. I'd like to think that when it comes time, SGC will still be going strong and still be my grading company of choice--then I'll take the plunge. But I can't afford to do this more than once, or at least I choose not to pay more than once. So who knows whose holder would bring the most $$$ to my old age or my heirs? |
Djr- please! You have been watching too many godfather movies!
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What difference does it make when Todd suspected trimming, why he sent it to SGC, or what his intentions were? Who gives a @#$%???
The bottom line is Todd bought the card at auction, wasn't happy with the knowledge that the card is potentially trimmed and requested a refund. Any seller worth his salt should have offered one as long as the card was returned in it's original state. What bothers me more is the complete lack of acknowledgement to the seller's past and legitimate concerns over the possibility of shill bidding. I don't know vintagetoppsguy or cmiz and am not sure if they have an agenda or just like to read what they type, but I do know Todd and he is a stand-up guy. Mike |
Todd- i've got your man of genius!
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Let's deal with facts about THIS case, not people's personal life. |
Hey mike- get a life. You know as well as i do that if this happened to you, you would be pissed. The card was graded, i repeat, graded! He knew that.
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Well said dave
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Mike |
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Mike- brrrrrrrr. You are really something.
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Let's quit all the bickering back and forth and get back to the issue. One TPG says it's trimmed, one TPG says it is not. Todd said he could prove it was trimmed. I'm calling him out and asking him to do so.
How about a high resolution scan? That might be helpful! Show us what you see! |
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David- what the hell good is a scan? Just curious
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I love it when someone responds"like a real man" on posts and does not have the b***s to post his name on the forum. OOPS, sorry mike
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David- how can you tell from a scan if the card has been trimmed or not? You can't even see any wave to the edges. You are a better man than me
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Oh, and jackass, the name is MikePugeda |
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lol, if your bull@#$% detector didn't go off immediately upon reading the "facts" in the seller's response, I seriously doubt that any scan, high resolution or otherwise, is going to convince you regarding the correctness of Todd's explanation that he thought the card was trimmed.
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Mike- where's the love?
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No...the word jackass is NOT Italian
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OK...truce
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Mike- i'll give you that one. Pretty quick response! I even tried to be politically correct and edit my response. You win that round, no offense.
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Guys, the scan was just a suggestion. I thought if he provided a high resolution scan to show the suspected trim area, it might change my mind. Again, it was just a suggestion. The point was that he said he could prove the card was trimmed. I am asking him to do so, be it scan or some other method.
After all, Todd said that he could look at it and tell it was trimmed. Shouldn't a scan/pic help me see what he sees? |
Just a few thoughts and observations (and I don't care whose side your on and I'm not taking sides with anyone --- at least not publicly).
I do have a complaint with the rationale behind some of the arguments here. Specifically those pointing to the Sellers past financial / legal transgressions and alleged shill bidding practices. A public case has been presented by the Buyer against the Seller. The Seller has stepped forward and presented a defense. We the jury of public opinion must evaluate those arguments based on their own merit. While the Seller's past legal history is both interesting and scandalous, it has no bearing on this case whatsoever. Nor do the charges of shill bidding. Though reprehensible as they may be, these considerations have no material impact on the matter of whether or not a TPG card may be returned to a Seller for a full-refund solely based upon a different opinion obtained from another TPG company. No matter what crime the Seller may or may not have committed in the past, it is irrelevant to the case at hand. Now we've had a very good discussion and debate thus far, apart from the occasional name-calling. Let's keep this a fair-fight, with no hitting below the belt, and let's try to stick to the facts. Remember, neither our relationships with the parties nor our opinions of them based on past direct experiences or indirect knowledge should be given any weight when it comes to deciding this matter. Much of the thread has been fantastic fun. I do, however, wish it had not been titled "Beware [Seller's Name Here]". I think that the Buyer initiated this thread out of a sense of frustration, and hence the title. I believe that it would have been in the Buyer's best interest to have presented the case in slightly more impartial manner, let's say as a question posed to the community concerning the proper etiquette and legal obligations of a Seller in such a case. The poor communication argument is also just another way of piling on, and has little to do with the main issue, which is, "Does any Seller have a legal or ethical obligation to accept the return of a TPG card simply based on the Buyer obtaining a different opinion from another TPG company?" It's a great question for this community to consider. I'd also like to know how positions of the community may be changed if the Buyer had purchased a PSA card from the Seller (instead of a GAI card) and had tried crossing that over unsuccessfully? Or visa-versa (let's set our opinions of PSA and SGC aside for a moment and consider them equals for the sake of argument). |
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The seller's defense was based in large part on a fabricated story about what he had been told about Todd's buying habits. That makes his credibility highly relevant, and thus his history and the evidence of shilling, both of which in my view bear on his credibility, are relevant.
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Just to clarify...
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I would be pissed too if I tried to cross a graded card and it came back trimmed.
Sounds like more of a grading company beef than a seller beef. IMO. JMO. |
First of all, maybe I am looking at the wrong price guides, but according to the few sales on VCP, the price isn't much of a discount. I don't know where the 5k$ value carter keeps quoting comes from, but I see 1095 for a PSA 6. Kind of hard for it to be a profitable scam when there is no profit. Now, if he were mad that the card didn't cross to a PSA 7.5, THEN maybe he could be flipping them and making a profit. That is not what happened though. He was mad that it didn't cross to *any* graded number, and was in fact altered to have the appearance of a higher grade.
Second of all, if Carter is so aware of the fact that the cards in GAI's holders are sketchy, and that there is great risk in them, then maybe he shouldn't be selling them(and by deduction, BUYING THEM HIMSELF)? The rules on ebay are more geared towards the buyer, not the seller, so I don't see how he expects to come out ahead. |
For the detractors out there about Todd submitting the card to SGC. Did it dawn on you that when the seller stated that he knew GAI would sell for 20% of SGC or PSA, then why would he not try and submit his $1000 card to turn it into a $4000-$500 card? Or maybe he did and it came back the same results as Todd got.
The seller comes here to comes here tell here side of the story only to come up with a wonderful story and not address his problematic issues. Those you defend this seller and other like him, going on buying from them, it only takes once and the whole experience is shot in the ass. Have a great time in life with your purchases. Lee |
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Todd: "Seller left positive feedback 4 days after auction ended" :confused: So how did the 2 very reputable sellers know Todd won the card 2 days after he won the card if feedback wasn't left until 4 days after auction ended? |
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But like I said, it's a bit of work, and gets harder the less active a bidder is. It's never been worth it to me, If I've been outbid I usually don't care who outbid me. And if I won I'm rarely concerned about who the underbidders were. Steve Birmingham |
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Todd should get his money back no questions asked. If there was any doubt about Carterscards being no good, Paul Sabatino cleared that up with the above post. I am 100% Carterscards is no good. The lack of communication made you look bad and once you did communicate it made you look worse. You insult the intelligence of the board with your grade school level lies. Please block my id from bidding in your auctions. Like I said in my first post-this will cost you way more than 1k Jim Rivera cfc1909 |
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The Truth about the Hobby
Crooks will come Ray – Crooks will come. The one constant has been baseball and crooks will know that the lure of that perfectly doctored and or shill bid card will prove too irresistible to resist.
From shady dealers to card doctors to the owners of grading companies selling cards to autograph authentication experts who profit from authenticating fake autographs to auction houses and individuals that employ shill bidding to counterfeit card experts to counterfeit slab experts ………., there seem to be a lot of shady characters and crooks involved in this hobby. |
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issac,
man oh man did you nail it! you nailed it! why can't we see that grading is no more than a scam? i mean i believe a trimmed card is a trimmed card. how in the world can a card be sent in, deemed trimmed, and sent in 2 weeks later and gets a grade of 7! maybe, just maybe, the card is not trimmed at all. so much for the subjectivity baloney. |
This thread is officially in the top ten with respect to the number of posts. Only a little more than 430 posts to become number 1 and only less than 100 more posts to be in the top 5!
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I think the only thing I learned from this thread is that there are some Net54 members I don't want to deal with, based on the rudeness displayed.
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I don't have a dog in this fight and I'm not going to pretend to know what the truth is in this situation. But it's very easy to see what other bidders have won. You don't have to guess their id and track them around. Advanced search - Bidder lookup All of their wins for the past month or so come up. No need to wait for feedback being left. I know because I've followed problem bidders, renegers after auction before to see what they are up to. I just recently had a bidder take three weeks to pay a $190 bill, send me a Paypal e-check which promptly bounced and disappeared. Meanwhile they're still bidding left and right and spending several hundred additional $'s while they're jerking me around. They even got positive feedback from some of their purchases. I didn't contact the other sellers but it certainly did cross my mind to satisfy my curiosity and see if they are doing the same to others. I was able to file for unpaid item claims before time ran out, but it really does gall me that Ebay keeps the buyers number of unpaid item claims private, along with bid retractions for the most part. |
Ok, Paul, do yourself a favor - "out" the two reputable dealers and have them corroborate your story... If you can do this (and people can agree that the two sellers are "reputable") then you have something to fall back on. If you refuse to reveal the two dealers then there are going to be more skeptics than people willing to believe your statement.
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Thanks for explaining that to me Steve & D.Bergin.......I really didn't know it was possible to do that. I used to buy on ebay, but haven't in many months.
Even when I was buying T206's, I didn't really get too in depth with ebays functions...if I won I'd just pay and get excited waiting for the mail :) Sincerely, Clayton |
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Anthony- for god's sake man, why don't you just let this stupid thing die? don't you have anything else to do?
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Yeah, Anthony. For God's sake.
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CMIZ5290 38
vintagetoppsguy 31 nolemmings 21 Peter_Spaeth 19 pgellis 18 novakjr 15 Pup6913 13 bobbyw8469 13 pwilk17 12 Jim VB 10 mdschulze 9 docpatlv 6 Rob D. 6 FrankWakefield 6 edhans 6 bowlingshoegiverouterguy 6 barrysloate 6 carrigansghost 5 JohnnyHarmonica 5 ctownboy 5 chaddurbin 5 bcornell 5 teetwoohsix 5 Robextend 5 botn 4 jezzeaepi 4 DJR 4 Fred 4 rhettyeakley 4 D. Bergin 4 oldjudge 4 Edwolf1963 4 slidekellyslide 3 tiger8mush 3 Leon 3 iwantitiwinit 3 HBroll 3 quinnsryche 3 BBSD 3 richieb315 2 ullmandds 2 leaflover 2 Kenny Cole 2 vintagecpa 2 steve B 2 T205 2 Ease 2 cfc1909 2 BlueDevil89 2 mintacular 2 scmavl 2 3-2-count 2 Anthony S. 2 Jacklitsch 2 Cat 2 glchen 2 Carterscards2006 2 dstudeba 1 VOLnVEGAS 1 Mikehealer 1 cozmokramer 1 lharri3600 1 gnaz01 1 JamesGallo 1 T206DK 1 Big Ben 1 rman444 1 mantleman 1 Tsaiko 1 jb217676 1 Chesbro41 1 painthistorian 1 OldSchoolBaseball 1 Bilko G 1 Ladder7 1 Rich Klein 1 DICKTOWLE 1 danmckee 1 jp1216 1 Kevin -Anthony has 2 posts in this thread and you have 38-that was a joke right..:D...:eek: |
Jim- obviously, you don't have alot to do either by taking the time to create that very instructive list. i was referring to his creative artwork!
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Yeah, Jim. For God's sake.
(Just trying to climb the list.) |
384...and counting.
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So I leave the car running, having just run over my new "father`s day" picnic table", it`s 4:30 in the morning and the ole lady says "what the hell time did you leave the party?"
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Only 2???
Must have been taking too many naps. |
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Crap - I'm at the bottom of the list.... Gotta fix that...
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:D |
I have 10 (now 11) posts in this thread? Seems like 9-10 too many. Is there a patch I can use to help me quit?
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I just caught this thread and I might as well get a spot on the thread list. I actually purchased two cards from Carterscards in their last auction. A PSA 8 Beckley Fan Craze (a very weak PSA 8) and a 1914 SGC 60 Cracker Jack Schalk. I would first preface that the reasoning by Carterscards and his accusations regarding Todd Schultz (who I do not know) seem very implausible and insulting. I debated the GAI stuff in Carterscards auction because I have crossed very early GAI stuff with 100% success (6 for 6 with 3 bump up grades and one bump down, 2 remained the same) I was just unsure whether this was truly very early GAI stuff and how to tell from the flip numbers. The flips were old style. When GAI first branched off with Mike Baker as head grader, Rocchi convinced some high profile collectors to transfer some of their high end cards out of PSA holders and into GAI holders, creating many of the first graded designations. I am sure many transferred back (did all?). He also provided some great incentives with dealers at cut rate pricing to submit their cards to GAI. So, obviously many perfectly legitimate GAI cards exist. GAI had some credibility and that is what some collectors still bank on. Today, it is a total crapshoot regarding what will cross and what will not and most realize this is the chance they take when bidding on GAI. As a devil's advocate, what if I attempted to cross the Schalk (it is a really solid SGC 60) over to PSA and they said it was trimmed. I would not go back to the seller and ask for a refund. Granted this is not a true apples to apples comparison as both grading services still have strong credibility in the market. But what if I were such a pure PSA guy that I did not want any of my cards in SGC holders and PSA says it is trimmed. I could resell it on ebay but would I have guilt that it is a trimmed card? After all, PSA said trimmed, who cares what SGC thinks, I believe PSA. All 3 grading services GAI, PSA, and SGC are and were imperfect. Some more than others. I took the shot on some higher end GAI cards and was lucky I guess. But I did have the knowledge that the cards were truly from the infancy of GAI. If the cards had come back trimmed I know I would not have gone back to the sellers. I also sent all 6 cards in raw (which would have probably voided any returns anyhow) as I knew PSA would look at them with a slanted view otherwise. I think the bottom line is, GAI cards are a risky venture. The original seller of the card (Carterscards) took a shot when he purchased the card (or maybe it was consignment) and who knows whether he tried to cross it. But I cannot fault him for selling a card that SGC now deems as trimmed and not accepting a return. I think we take our shot with GAI cards. Carterscards took a shot on the card. Where does he go if it is returned and where does the food chain end with this card? GAI does not even exist anymore, they are now Global Authority with a new holder. The company has no guarantee on the buyback of old GAI cards. In the end, I agree with Paul Gallo's comment-send it to PSA for another opinion. I do not think you can fault Carterscards, he was not the trimmer if the card was truly trimmed. He sold a graded card by a company who had credibility at one time but is now suspect. The buyback guarantee does not pass along to him because the company no longer exists. As a final note, I believe the buyer will win the paypal case (as long as the card is in the GAI holder) anyhow, as paypal sides with the buyer 99.9% of the time and the time frame is short regarding the purchase.-Bob Beck
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(Still climbing.) |
Nice cards, Chuck!
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No one that seems to be behind Carter has answered this question, which seems to be a strong possibility:
"For the detractors out there about Todd submitting the card to SGC. Did it dawn on you that when the seller stated that he knew GAI would sell for 20% of SGC or PSA, then why would he not try and submit his $1000 card to turn it into a $4000-$5000 card? Or maybe he did and it came back the same results as Todd got." Lee |
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