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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>no point to be made, just wanted to be #200.

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Posted By: <b>David McDonald</b><p>And somewhere in Iowa a young collector sighs.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>The world will now come to a fiery end! I have to agree with Jim Crandall and Peter, god that hurts. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif"><br /><br />But alteration is alteration, regardless of if it leaves noticeable signs. I would be pissed to know that someone sold me a SGC 80 for full boat only to find out he soaked and restored the card and never mentioned the fact to me. And if you guys have no problem with this then I think someone here can sell a Just So Burkett as long as there is no evidence that it was restored. <br /><br />To me this is like not disclaiming that a car was in a wreck and was re-painted before purchase. Maybe the hobby needs CardFax.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I disagree John - The Burkett has had something added to the card that wasnt there - namely paper. Completely different situation.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>“I am personally offended and sick that anyone would collect a card of Hitler. That might be the single most repulsive collectible I have ever seen and to the owner, what can you say? That guy killed many of my relatives and he gets a trading card? Wow!! I can't figure out who is worse Hitler or the guy that is collecting his cards.”<br /><br />And as for this comment, I have been down this road many times here; if this were the case then half of the world’s museums would be empty! I guess those crazy Catholics should be condemned too for that Shroud of Turin, I mean what kind of sick bastard would want Jesus’s so called burial cloth! And those insane plane collectors with their WW2 fighter planes who would want a plane that killed thousands of people, lets go destroy that Enola Gay Charlie you and me…<br /><br />Oh and by the way Charlie I have quite a few rare non-sports cards that depict Hitler and the Nazi Party, in fact some of them came from a lot of non-sports in a Masto auction. So go ahead and label me and Mastronet anti-Semitic, neo-nazi fascists while you’re on your soapbox.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Ok on the Burkett point taken, but you have no issue with me selling you a card that was cleaned from filth to new only to not disclaim it to you because it made it in a holder. To me I think were all splitting hairs here between stealing a pack of gum and a car. To me it’s stealing either way but everyone has his or her own way of twisting it to fit his or her mold.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>why dont we keep this on the current point - charlie was by no means the only one who found the post puzzling, offensive, etc. Steve explained and all was forgotten/forgiven - why bring it back up now?

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Because I just got around to reading it Josh, I didn’t realize there was time limit to respond to comments made or that I needed your permission. I apologize for voicing an opinion to the comments made on a discussion forum.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>John, <br /><br />I actually would have no problem with a card that was soaked to remove paper that shouldnt have been there in the first place - disclosed or not, it wouldnt affect my bid. Similarly, if you took a qtip and water and got rid of a small amount of dirt, I would still take the card. I have a bigger problem with chemical cleaners or some other sort of professional restoration.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>You certainly dont need my permission - it just came across as an attack on a tangental topic that was dead and buried. I found it unnecessary, if you or others disagree, then by all means go right ahead and blast away.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>This is what is so funny about this forum, Charlie made a comment saying that people who would collect items of dark historical background , were in a fact on the same level if not worse than that of what they may collect. How was that not an attack from Charlie read his quote above.<br /><br />I simply make an educated comment back stating that he should re-think before he labels people, and then I give insight to my thoughts and why I disagree. It now becomes an attack? <br /><br />I also like how a few posters seem to dictate what topics are dead and what’s not, how many moderators does this place have now???<br /><br />To me Charlie’s comment holds the same amount of water as saying because you collect cards of Ty Cobb a known racist that you must hate black people. Now I’m going to go bid on some Ruth cards and drink some cold beers, sleep with some women and eat to many hot dogs.<br /><br />Sorry I’ll try not to put my 2 cents in anymore on this post Josh, no since having a discussion on a discussion forum huh? Where’s Blackheart the attacker when you need him???<br />

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p><br />"To me Charlie’s comment holds the same amount of water as saying because you collect cards of Ty Cobb a known racist that you must hate black people. Now I’m going to go bid on some Ruth cards and drink some cold beers, sleep with some women and eat to many hot dogs"<br /><br /><br />John,<br /><br />If you want to collect Hitler memorabilla thats cool. In fact, their are many historical documents or artifacts related to Hitler that need to be in musuems etc but collectible is much different than a historical artifact. Ty Cobb stood for many good things, Hitler had zero redeeming qualities. Its an amazingly stupid comparison you made between baseball players and their faults that caused zero deaths to a person who caused millions of deaths. <br /><br />To make that comparison exposes either your ignorance or stupidtiy?<br /><br />You are making light of a subject that should not be discussed here. <br /><br />I am sure there are some other chat boards for Hitler?<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>Seems to me there was no other reason for the recent comments re: Hitler (current remarks) than to start a disagreement.<br />Oh well. Still a great thread if we can keep it on topic.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>“Ty Cobb stood for many good things”<br /><br />Well besides a known racist, beating a man with no hands and stabbing a guy, I’m sure was a real sweetheart.<br /><br />”Hitler had zero redeeming qualities”.<br /><br />Some scholars may argue that point with you while a total freaking nut job (I agree), Hitler was good at the re-structuring and economic growth of Germany. This is in no way a radical thought, and he is an historical figure regardless of what he did. I also have cards of Edwin Booth who’s brother John Wilkes Booth shot Lincoln, should I get rid of those to. How about all those Pirate cards put out by Allen & Ginter didn’t they kill rape and pillage? Or were those of happy pirates?<br /><br />I also collect rare weapons (swords, armor, guns) but I’ll make sure none of them have a violent past just for you Charlie.<br /><br /><br />“To make that comparison exposes either your ignorance or stupidtiy?”<br /><br />Who’s attacking who? Charlie if you would like to discuss in more detail and have an educated discussion off line feel free to email me, if you can take your foot out of your mouth long enough to talk, without labeling people with ridiculous comments that they must be Nazi’s and that history can never be discussed if it offends someone. That’s pure ignorance plain and simple.<br /><br />Also for the record before you call someone stupid, try ending stupidity with ity not tiy just a thought.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>John,<br /><br />Its a shame you want to ruin this thread. I stand by remarks. <br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>I was simply responding to your comments above, I hope you don’t stand by this remark. <br /><br />“I am personally offended and sick that anyone would collect a card of Hitler. That might be the single most repulsive collectible I have ever seen and to the owner, what can you say? That guy killed many of my relatives and he gets a trading card? Wow!! I can't figure out who is worse Hitler or the guy that is collecting his cards.”<br /><br />I was hoping how you might see, that you could very well be insulting some of your fellow collectors who may collect items that could fall under your generalizations about things (Horrors Of War, Non-Sports Issues), hence labeling someone something that he’s not or un-fairly grouping him in with a group.<br /><br />But I wont ruin this thread, I apologize for ruining the thread to any one who feels I did. <br /><br />Leon feel free to delete all of my comments so I don’t ruin the forum for any one, must be all those damn questionable collectibles and artifacts I have collected making me such an evil spiteful person.<br />

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Posted By: <b>John E</b><p>This may be a completely stupid suggestion, but couldn't the grading companies set a minimum weight requirement for a card which would help detect trimming and stretching. This probably would only work for cards that would normally grade a 6 or better, since normal wear might account for weight loss on lower grade cards. In addition, it would have to only apply to cards where there is uniformity in size.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I think this is a very good thread...almost strayed a few times but not too badly. I will politely ask that we not talk about Hitler stuff anymore in this thread. I don't know of a Pre-WWII baseball card with him on it. Notice, I said "in this thread" because I don't really ever want to deny some discussion, on almost anything, if it can circle back around to what the board is about. For the record there are 4 moderators on the board but I do make most of the decisions.....hence the "forum owner" part. Now carry on....oh yeah, I also don't have a problem with a Q tip and water on a card, or possibly soaking to ONLY get remnants off, or gum erasing a mark. I spoke with some principles of one of the largest auction houses yesterday and they asked my stand on this subject. I told them what I just stated and I won't be a part of anything else....although I do know it goes on...but so do a lot of things I won't do or be a part of....regards<br /><br />edited to say that I don't mean to sound like a "do-gooder"..cause I ain't <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I may have to rethink my position.<br /><br />Damn--I thought he said he was leaving the boards.

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>It wouldn't be the first time someone has left a board, then returned, then left, then returned, then get banned, then return, etc.

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Posted By: <b>MANONTHEROCK</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />Thanks for ending the mindless Hitler discussion. And for the record I agree with Josh.<br /><br />Moving on, instead of naming dealers who are believed or known to be "trimmers" I feel it might be better to name dealers than are believed or known to not "trim".<br /><br />In my opinion, the following dealers do not "trim" cards!<br /><br />1.Wayne Varner<br />2.Steve Hart<br />3.Andy Madec<br />4.J.P. Cohen<br /><br />I will start with these as they are the first that come to my mind.<br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Gentlemen, and Ladies, too...<br /><br />This thread was about soaking, not an evil man of decades past.<br /><br /><br />To clarify, my support of soaking a T206 to remove dirt, scrapbook paper, and paste remains is in no way an endorsment of stretching and trimming a card. I'm absolutely against that. Completely. I'd think that measuring the frame line of the "picture" would reveal a stretched T206. <br /><br />Someone back up there mentioned soaking a 1952 Mantle. Do that only if you dislike the Mik, or if you want to decrease the card population, or it is your soon-to-be ex-wife's Mantle and you're destroying it for revenge... It is my understanding that 1952 Topps won't survive water.<br /><br />Regardless of everyone's position on soaking, it is really great to be "soaked" with this fountain of knowledge. You guys are great! Even the ones of you who are wrong on this!

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Everyone seems to miss my point I only mentioned you know who because it was mentioned above. Not because I enjoy or like the topic.<br /><br />My point is very simple there are countless items, which could be collected, that come from desperate and disturbing times throughout history Civil War, WW2, Crusades etc. To generalize as Charlie did that anyone who would collect any items that may be connected in any way with a historical figure or time was in fact being supportive of beliefs or being on the same level as that of the historical item.<br /><br />If you gentleman can’t see the wrong in that statement he made, then its best I not try to explain anymore.<br /><br />I never claimed to support anyone’s beliefs or historical views just pointing out the facts of history. Quite frankly I don’t appreciate the implied tones from the above posts that I do. <br /><br />Also one more point to ponder. The Roman army was one of the most brutal and destructive forces that have ever walked the earth, they were also responsible for thousands if not millions of Jewish deaths too. I wonder if I mentioned that I had a Roman uniform or coin collection would people be so offended.<br /><br />No I am not Jewish, but that should have little baring on rather or not I can understand or comprehend tragic times, or have an idea regarding the historical significance of times throughout history, and or have an educated opinion of such.<br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Brian,<br /><br />Right you are--and in the right sequence.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>"Now I’m going to go bid on some Ruth cards and drink some cold beers"<br /><br />"Sorry I’ll try not to put my 2 cents in anymore on this post"<br /><br />"if you would like to discuss in more detail and have an educated discussion off line"<br /><br />"But I wont ruin this thread, I apologize for ruining the thread to any one who feels I did."<br /><br />"then its best I not try to explain anymore."<br /><br />Awesome. Great. Thanks.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Since it was reiterated I think I better set a small issue straight too. Since I have been sort of running the board only one person has been banned and allowed back. He hasn't posted again and was only banned for a day or so....no one else has been banned and let come back on this shift, as far as I remember..Many have left and come back though....One other thing too...I do think we should be somewhat tolerable of what folks collect as long as their thoughts and sentiments are in keeping with some sort of moral views...and this is the last on that subject, please...Be prepared to have your post deleted, from here on out, if it isn't on the original topic of this thread......best regards...

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />I was refering to an instance on another board, not 54. Sorry for the confusion...<br /><br />Brian

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Posted By: <b>tbob</b><p>Just curious, for those who have soaked cards for whatever reason, (to get paper off or to remove wrinkles or to clean cards, etc.) which cards have proven susceptible to being soaked? Obviously T206s do, and Frank mentioned he soaked a Home Run Kisses (I had been told never to soak a Zeenut because of disintegration issues and aren't the Zeenuts and Home Run Kisses very similar in paper stock?). I would think OJs would be a terrible candidate because of the way they were made, but what about glossy cards like Obaks, E106s, T213-2s, etc? Anyone?