Originally Posted by Nunzio11 (Post 2135347)

That was my thought. I'm sure this is not the publicity and fanfare PWCC was looking for when launching their own platform. Imagine the shenanigans that will go on when bidders no longer have the guise of Ebay protection to fall back on if they feel there were wronged by unethical practices.

Originally Posted by Mitochondria (Post 2135376)

Is there a way to block certin Sellers on eBay while searching for items. I often have saved search terms that look for general categories of cards, but I have not seen a method of blocking certain Sellers if they meet search criteria. Thanks

Originally Posted by conor912 (Post 2135383)

This was my first thought. The inmates running the asylum. It’s hard to believe that shilling isn’t so ingrained in the culture there they could have a really hard time running a legit AH, even if they wanted to. The few things I ever bought from them years ago were things I just stumbled upon while browsing Ebay. I can’t see myself ever visiting their site and I doubt I’m the only one.

Originally Posted by cannonballsun (Post 2135320)

The banning of PWCC is a huge and drastic move by eBay, a move that will surely cost them money. As businesses are always driven by the desire to make money, first and foremost, there must be a very compelling reason for them to do it. The only reason that makes sense to me is that the long awaited FBI investigation is coming to a close, and PWCC is going to be hit with Mastro-like charges. EBay wants to separate themselves from PWCC, and that investigation, and those charges.
Of course, this is only my opinion. I have no facts to back this up.
I can't see eBay doing this out of spite because PWCC is going to make their own auction site.

Originally Posted by jingram058 (Post 2135408)

Is there a chance this move by eBay on PWCC has any effect at all on Dean's?

Originally Posted by jingram058 (Post 2135408)

Is there a chance this move by eBay on PWCC has any effect at all on Dean's?

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2135306)

Wow! Pretty crazy turn of events today. I've read a lot of conspiracy theories so far, some rather comical. I think a few observations are probably worth noting though, if trying to figure out what's actually happening behind the scenes. I'm just speculating and exercising my critical thinking skills though here, so take this with a grain of salt. I don't know anyone on the inside at either company who is in charge of making these decisions.

A few observations:

1 - PWCC has been working on their own separate platform to compete against eBay. Their Premier Auction in July was the first launch of part of their new independent platform. This is just the tip of the iceburg. As they've stated in their response to the eBay letter, they have much bigger ambitions that are soon to launch.

2 - Thus far, eBay has only banned PWCC. They didn't ban Probstein, which has gotten just as much heat on the forums as PWCC regarding this topic.

3 - PWCC's definition of "shill bidding" is perhaps peculiarly worded on their website. "Shill bidding is a bid placed without the intention to honor it - regardless of who placed the bid." https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/faq

4 - I believe it is rather common for many auction houses to expressly allow shill bidding in their TOS (or so I've read)

5 - In the past, eBay has repeatedly demonstrated that they couldn't care less about shill bidding (I recently created a thread on this topic).

6 - Historically, eBay has not taken well to competition over the years, nor criticism. They have bought out numerous start-up auction sites over the years in an effort to maintain their monopoly, and I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the recent news articles about former eBay employees who were recently sentenced to prison for cyberstalking a couple from Massachusetts who published articles criticizing eBay.


What does this all mean? What's actually going on here?

I don't buy for a second that this is eBay's attempt at cracking down on shill bidding. That's bullshit. If eBay wanted to crack down on this, they would have done so a long time ago, and they would have done it from the inside. They are the ones with all of the relevant bidding behavior and user data. Not the sellers. They can easily crack down on shill bidding, but they've chosen not to, likely because it's a project that would take money out of their pockets.

To me, this smells like it's one of two things.
1) The most likely scenario to me is that eBay is pissed off at PWCC because PWCC basically built their brand on eBay's platform and now they think they are big enough that they can just create their own platform to compete against eBay, taking hundreds of millions of dollars of business along with them, so eBay decided to tarnish their brand on their way out the door. Sort of the "you can't quit, you're fired!" approach.
2) The not-so-recent FBI investigation into the sports card market has begun to finally shown its teeth after dragging along for many years in silence, and they are somehow just now knocking on eBay's door, asking for records on PWCC's bidding activity. I find this to be a rather low likelihood though for a multitude of reasons, the least of which is eBay's otherwise couldn't-care-less approach to shill bidding in general. If eBay were feeling heat from the FBI, they would have tightened up shill bidding long before now.

Also note that eBay's wording is rather suspect to me. "Individuals associated with PWCC"... Really? That's the best they could do? Notice what they didn't say. "PWCC is engaged in shill bidding." or "PWCC personnel is engaged with shill bidding." or "PWCC employees have engaged in shill bidding". This email was without question, carefully crafted by eBay's legal team and likely signed off on by the CEO prior to being sent out. This is a strategically worded email. "Individuals associated with PWCC" to me reads as "people who consigned with PWCC", not PWCC employees. It's reads like a cleverly worded lawyer trick that has the intention of misleading its audience into believing that PWCC employees are shill bidding their eBay listings, but is worded just soft enough that if challenged in court (which it will be) they can simply say that they meant the people who consigned with PWCC were doing the shill bidding, not PWCC themselves.

Based on PWCC's response, this came out of left field. If eBay were truly just concerned about shill bidding, they wouldn't have just blindsided one of their top sellers on the entire platform. PWCC sold hundreds of millions of dollars last year alone on eBay. They would have had a meeting with Brentsy to discuss how serious they are about preventing shill bidding at the very least. They would have coordinated on this effort if preventing shill bidding was the goal. And if they had done that already, then this wouldn't have come out of left field for PWCC (which appears to be clearly the case here).

And as far as preventing shill bidding goes, PWCC has actually done far more than eBay or any other consigner I've encountered to combat this. They send you emails warning you to confirm that you intend to actually purchase an item after placing a bid if you haven't bought from them previously (I have this very email in my inbox somewhere). Otherwise they will cancel your bid. You must be vetted by thier finance team in order to participate in their Premier Auctions (I've been through this too), and if you win an item in any of their auctions but don't pay for it, they will ban your account and you won't be able to bid on their aucitons again. These are all steps to prevent shill bidding. What more can you really expect them to do? They are a consignment company. They're not eBay themselves. They don't have access to all the user data and bid history of everyone like eBay does. There's only so much they can actually do to prevent shill bidding. Most of what can be done is and should be eBay's responsibility, not PWCC's.

That said, if it were to come out that PWCC has some top-secret operation in place to where they've hired an army of North Korean hackers to create thousands of fake eBay accounts who shill bid all of their auctions for them, or Brentsy and crew have shill bidding sessions themselves at the office, then that'd be something rather extraordinary, but I highly doubt this is the case. At best, they might have a disagreement on what the definition of "shill bidding" is to begin with. Remember, Brentsy defines a shill bid as a bid with no intention of making payment if you win regardless of who you are or if you have any association with the consigner, whereas maybe eBay thinks it's a bid placed on behalf of the consigner regardless of whether or not they plan to proceed with payment, should they happen to win.

Originally Posted by cannonballsun (Post 2135320)

The banning of PWCC is a huge and drastic move by eBay, a move that will surely cost them money. As businesses are always driven by the desire to make money, first and foremost, there must be a very compelling reason for them to do it. The only reason that makes sense to me is that the long awaited FBI investigation is coming to a close, and PWCC is going to be hit with Mastro-like charges. EBay wants to separate themselves from PWCC, and that investigation, and those charges.
Of course, this is only my opinion. I have no facts to back this up.
I can't see eBay doing this out of spite because PWCC is going to make their own auction site. A business that operates on spite is a very unprofessional business, and all their execs should be canned, if that's what they are doing.
As always, time will tell, but this is a huge move. By the way, I didn't get the email from eBay. I do believe I am on PWCC's email list as I receive email from them all the time.
I did buy one item from PWCC, but I believe it was the only one I ever bought from them. It was an large, ungraded lot of 1962 Jell-O cards. That is my number one collecting interest, so I went for it. I have bid on other items that they have for sale, but I always get outbid. Their items generally sell for higher prices than I am willing to pay.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2135421)

Here's a thought -- PWCC now has more incentive than ever to show high auction prices.

Originally Posted by conor912 (Post 2135432)

Good point. If their prices fall off a cliff on their own site, they’ll have (even more) ‘splaining to do.

I find it interesting that 3 things have converged here…Ebay booting PWCC, PWCC launching their own platform, and an FBI investigation heating up. That’s a potent cocktail with a lot of money and potential legal problems at stake.

Originally Posted by 1954 topps (Post 2135438)

PWCC already has their own platform for selling and they've already established themselves as the largest auction house in the business. People will swarm to their site every auction like they always do because collectors be crazy. Regardless of shill bidding or not people will still buy from them in future auctions because they have it all. If you're worried about shill bidding just pick a max number in your head and don't go over it just like any other auction.

I believe eBay was already aware PWCC has intentions of leaving their platform soon as they've already tested having their own auctions. The fees are high and they can do it in-house for less. So they're mad and throwing them under the bus, probably for good reasons but about a decade late. Gee thanks eBay for trying to portray being the golden child here, you haven't been a partner in crime the whole time at all...bye ebay, you won't be missed. It's not that hard to run this business. Oh Hello Sirius and your weekly auctions!

I've bought from PWCC many times just like the next collector and will continue to do so because they have what I'm looking for. Meanwhile I end up recycling dozens of catalogs every year from all the auction houses that don't have anything to add to my collection.

Examine your cards carefully when you get them regardless of who you're buying from. PWCC or elsewhere, it's your money, you better know what you're getting.

Originally Posted by 53toppscollector (Post 2135468)

lol REA isn't pussyfooting around. From an email I just received:

Originally Posted by 53toppscollector (Post 2135468)

lol REA isn't pussyfooting around. From an email I just received:

Originally Posted by jchcollins (Post 2135472)

That's freaking great LOL.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2135421)

Here's a thought -- PWCC now has more incentive than ever to show high auction prices.

Originally Posted by Snapolit1 (Post 2135475)

I'd have trouble sleeping tonight if I had a $100,000 card in a vault in Oregon. Just sayin.

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid (Post 2135364)

It's true that PWCC's money is not very much relative to eBay as a whole. But if the FBI announced that it was pressing charges or investigating eBay for colluding with PWCC on defrauding bidders, that would result in huge and very unwelcome negative publicity that would have a big effect on all of eBay. They certainly want to avoid that, so my guess is that the FBI showed eBay the evidence they have on PWCC, and eBay is scrambling to distance themselves from PWCC and show the Feds that they are not going to tolerate that behavior any more.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2135477)

I just don't buy for one second that PWCC employees or its owners are actively shill bidding on their auctions. Same with Probstein and other consignment companies. Their consignors shill bid constantly, but that doesn't make them guilty of it too.

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards (Post 2135481)

I seriously doubt the FBI is showing anyone any evidence in an ongoing investigation.

Originally Posted by conor912 (Post 2135432)

Good point. If their prices fall off a cliff on their own site, they’ll have (even more) ‘splaining to do.

Originally Posted by conor912 (Post 2135432)

I find it interesting that 3 things have converged here…Ebay booting PWCC, PWCC launching their own platform, and an FBI investigation heating up. That’s a potent cocktail with a lot of money and potential legal problems at stake.

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes (Post 2135365)

Can I trust PWCC as a business moving forward?
Absolutely. We know trust is built over time and through a consistent experience. It is our hope that we have earned that trust from you and that we will continue to do so with our new platform. We are deeply committed to ensuring the bidding environment you deserve.

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards (Post 2135481)

I seriously doubt the FBI is showing anyone any evidence in an ongoing investigation.

Originally Posted by jchcollins (Post 2135483)

So, eBay just decided this is a bad business association?

Originally Posted by 53toppscollector (Post 2135468)

lol REA isn't pussyfooting around. From an email I just received:

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes (Post 2135365)

From PWCC's site:
Can I still take out a loan through PWCC Capital?
Yes, we would be pleased to consider you for a loan. Contact our Customer Service Team via email or chat to start the process.

Originally Posted by Johnny630 (Post 2135493)

I wonder How many people have called to get their cards out of the Pwcc vault?

Optics Look Bad for them very bad…don’t know how well they’re gonna compete with Other Major AH’s that have their own stand alone platforms.

Originally Posted by carlsonjok (Post 2135496)

I have been expecting the bubble to pop for a while now, but was starting to think it might have just been wishful thinking since I have been effectively priced out of the market for Roberto Clemente and Nolan Ryan rookie cards for a while now. However this quote above from PWCC renews my faith that, at some point soon, the part of the hobby pool that I swim in will come back to me.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2135494)

Seems to me as though PWCC would have a very strong lawsuit on their hands if ebay in fact does not have proof of PWCC employees shill bidding in their own auctions. If the shill bidders are in fact just consignors or other random eBay accounts, then their accusations are textbook defamatory resulting in real damages to PWCC's bottom line. If this is the case, I expect we will see eBay having to pay PWCC a substantial sum of money in the inevitable lawsuit on the horizon.

However, on the other hand, if eBay can prove that PWCC employees or its ownership are in fact actively shill bidding on their auctions, then PWCC is likely in for some extreme turbulence ahead. Although if this were the case, I have to ask, why wouldn't they just state that in the email rather than using the cryptic "individuals associated with PWCC" engaged in shill bidding? It just doesn't make sense. To me this smells like eBay deliberately trying to tarnish the brand of their newest competitor.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2135494)

Seems to me as though PWCC would have a very strong lawsuit on their hands if ebay in fact does not have proof of PWCC employees shill bidding in their own auctions. If the shill bidders are in fact just consignors or other random eBay accounts, then their accusations are textbook defamatory resulting in real damages to PWCC's bottom line. If this is the case, I expect we will see eBay having to pay PWCC a substantial sum of money in the inevitable lawsuit on the horizon.

However, on the other hand, if eBay can prove that PWCC employees or its ownership are in fact actively shill bidding on their auctions, then PWCC is likely in for some extreme turbulence ahead. Although if this were the case, I have to ask, why wouldn't they just state that in the email rather than using the cryptic "individuals associated with PWCC" engaged in shill bidding? It just doesn't make sense. To me this smells like eBay deliberately trying to tarnish the brand of their newest competitor.

Originally Posted by Johnny630 (Post 2135493)

I wonder How many people have called to get their cards out of the Pwcc vault?

Optics Look Bad for them very bad…don’t know how well they’re gonna compete with Other Major AH’s that have their own stand alone platforms.

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards (Post 2135501)

Before PWCC decides to litigate they should remember that discovery is a bitch.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2135477)

Do you believe this incentive would outweigh the competing incentive to avoid shill bidding to whatever extent possible since they are/were under an FBI investigation with a sizeable portion of the community constantly breathing fire down their backs, waiting to catch them for any and every misstep?

To me it seems incomprehensible that PWCC themselves would be actively engaged in any shill bidding activity at any point since the FBI came knocking on their doors. Yes, of course random ebay users and their consignors engage in this activity all the time, but this isn't PWCC's problem to solve. It's ebay's responsibility. I just don't buy for one second that PWCC employees or its owners are actively shill bidding on their auctions. Same with Probstein and other consignment companies. Their consignors shill bid constantly, but that doesn't make them guilty of it too.

Perhaps worth discussing as well though is what defines "shill bidding" to begin with? Is it shill bidding if you have every intention of paying for the item and all the fees that go along with it should you win? PWCC doesn't consider that to be shill bidding, and neither do many/most? other auction houses.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2135477)

I just don't buy for one second that PWCC employees or its owners are actively shill bidding on their auctions. Same with Probstein and other consignment companies. Their consignors shill bid constantly, but that doesn't make them guilty of it too.

Originally Posted by conor912 (Post 2135482)

See the screen shot in post 197. I encourage you to find and read the whole thread whence it came.

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass (Post 2135507)

Got to have your name in your post brutha! Read rules at the top regarding opinions

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2135512)

I am not slandering or disparaging any person or company. We're simply discussing how to interpret a letter and recent events in the hobby. If I have claims to make against these companies, accusing them of criminal behavior, then I will put my name in the post. But I'm not posting my name publicly just to discuss generic recent public events that everyone else has the same access to and knowledge of.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2135486)

There is no scenario where the FBI came to ebay with "the evidence" they have against PWCC in an ongoing criminal investigation. The most they would have done was subpoena specific documents or transaction records. Ebay might try to infer from there whatever they want, but the FBI isn't showing them any evidence whatsoever.

Ebay could have made the decision to cut ties with PWCC for a multitude of reasons. The best we can do is speculate and use our critical thinking skills to try to narrow down which of those reasons are the most likely.