I'm not sure where you take exception. I'm just saying the refs didn't log the pressures at half time when the ball were found to be low. Yes, this helps the Pats... And I think it also shows how little the refs, or the league cared about this before the media blew it way up. They simply filled the balls back up and player the 2nd half. IMO, it was Chris Mortensen and others blowing this up that made it a public controversy.

What is the point of a log?-- it was a pass/fail test. They noted that 11 balls failed--why note it at all if they did not believe it important? What should they have done--halted the contest, immediately toss a player or coach from the game, declare a forfeit? You can blame it on the media all you want-- seems a lot of ex-players and coaches have commented that they think it is worthy of discussion, criticism, investigation, etc. Then again, they could all be haters.

What's the point of a log?? Do you think if the NFL was serious to enforce this rule, they would not take note of how under inflated the balls were? By not doing so, they've left open all the possibilities these balls were under inflated due to atmospheric conditions. Had they logged and recorded that the 11 balls were at say 7-8 psi, they'd have a much better case to make against the Pats. As is, they didn't care to make a case. Why should we care about a league rule if the league didn't care?? (I go back to the example of the MLB base coach's box)

Also, do you truly trust all these ex players and coaches to be objective? (and please feel free to provide specific names/examples). I know one of my favorite all time players Jerry Rice said this controversy taints the Pats legacy, and that if they win the SB they deserve an asterisk, blah, blah. I love the Niners, and loved watching him play, but I think his comments were moronic. You can trust his opinions if you want, but this is coming from a guy who played on a team who's O-line coach Bob McKittrick taught players how to leg whip, make it look accidental, and in doing so may have often times severely injured guys while avoiding a flag... from a team who's D-line lathered its jerseys in vasoline so that O-linemen couldn't grasp their shoulder pads while trying to block...from one of the first teams to sow up their jersey sleeves so tacklers had nothing to grab at... and from a team that very possibly bypassed the salary cap and paid players under the table during its 1994 SB run. Jerry Rice himself fumbled 2-3 plays ahead of Terrell Owens' "The Catch II" but so effectively sold that he had not, the ref simply gave the ball back to SF. This just scratches the surface of questionable things done to gain an advantage, and this is in no way unique to the Niners (or Pats). In most cases people either ignore this stuff or call it gamesmanship.

I find it hard to believe guys like Rice are mostly speaking out based upon their sense integrity for the game. IMO, Jerry Rice said what he did because he doesn't want the Pats to challenge the Niiners' legacy, and smelled blood in the water. I've heard other Niners interviewed going back to around 2005 talking about not wanting Brady to ever match Montana's 4 SB rings, etc. I've also watched retired '72 Dolphins pop champagne every year when the last undefeated team loses. These guys can be just as petty and jealous as the next guy. I don't hold it against them, but it makes me take a lot of what they say with a grain of salt.

Back to the point of game ball air pressure, Steve Young, one of the more intellectual QBs (QB/JD) to ever play the game admitted on radio he never even knew there was a rule for air pressure. Again, it's been a non factor, non issue. I think just about every team in the league will do just about anything within its control (not necessarily within the rules) to create an advantage. I'm not saying this is always the right thing to do, just that it doesn't make the Pats an exception, and it doesn't justify their being singled out so far above and beyond other teams (no one's talking about Brad Johnson's bribing someone to work in SB game balls). If the NFL has strong evidence the Pats cheated, great, punish them and move on. However, even if guilty, IMO this violation is way down the list of violations that occur on a regular basis.

Just found this little nugget from 1988... vaseline, stickum, silicone, even Coca Cola. This is a great peak at what the NFL has always been, and what it still is.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/2...AL.html?pg=all

It is incredibly weak to suggest that a league that fines its players for wearing the wrong colored socks, gloves or wrist bands does not take seriously a rule that directly impacts on the fairness of competition. Yes, the NFL could mark each ball with a number before the game, measure the psi and log it, then do the same at halftime. At halftime or after the game they could then preserve any balls that were found to have deflated in a controlled atmosphere and under quarantined conditions, so that any team accused of deflating them could have its “atmospheric” experts come in to perform their own measurements without fear of a “contaminated” environment. Only then can we conclude the league is serious? Actually, all balls will need to be quarantined, including, say, those used by the Indianapolis Colts, none of which lost more than 1.0 psi (if they lost any at all) while nearly all of the Patriots’ balls fell by more than that, so we can listen to people guess, contort and postulate how different handling and other conditions explain away the apparent contradiction. Only then can we conclude that this is a serious rule and that it was violated.

How about just having the footballs delivered by armored truck to the field, where they are measured before all who care, then given to the custody and control of only NFL-employed ballboys for handling during the game? It may well now come to pass that the league will insist on a uniform psi for all teams, that it will inflate the balls itself to exactly that specification, and there will be no discretion for individual teams’ tastes. Your QB doesn’t like the level of pressure, get over it or get a new QB. Part of me wonders why this has not happened already. Pitchers don’t get to take a bag of hand-selected balls out to the mound with them, the Spurs don’t grab a rebound and then ask for a different basketball while they are on offense, etc. Seems like a fair resolution to me.

I have not heard one current or former player or coach ever cop to changing the inflation of footballs before or during a game. Most QBs will admit that the lower inflated balls would be easier to throw in certain or maybe all conditions–this from Tarkenton is typical:

Q: What are your thoughts on `Deflate-gate,’ Fran?

A: “This has been going on for a lot of years. We always rubbed the balls down and got them ready when I played. But we didn’t, in my era, deflate the balls. When you deflate the balls, it’s easier to throw it and easier to catch it. And you don’t fumble as much.

“It is wrong. And the NFL has said nothing. Nothing.”

Despite the fact that most QBs consider it advantageous to have the balls under-inflated and most also conceded to have “worked up” the footballs, you would think it would have occurred to them to outright deflate them. Yet it seems none did. Why not, one could wonder, especially if the league did not consider that a serious rules violation. Perhaps the players thought it would be cheating (see Tarkenton) and/or that the league could consider it so. You think?

...

Todd - I guarantee you other quarterbacks have been doing it. I saw a photo of Ben Roethlisberger holding onto a football like it was a nerf ball. Impossible with normal inflation. Wish I could find that pic again.

I do not doubt the balls can easily be marked. The rest of the requirements to make for a controlled environment and avoid these "atmospheric" arguments could be considered rather extreme and oppressive, however. Still, I suppose they could be done--presume cheaters and take all precautions, I guess. That does not mean their absence shows a lack of concern by the league, however.
I still like my solution better--take all discretion and team preferences out of the equation and have the league keep control of the footballs through all steps. Everybody plays with the same balls-- in fact, no need to have different balls on each sideline, then there is no incentive to alter for advantage. Even your K ball example acknowledges that both teams use the same ball, and that really only one or two are used during a game, which is a different scenario altogether than what happened here.

Sorry Scott, whatever pics you show me, I'm not buying your guarantee. If someone comes forward and admits it, I'll change my stance. I simply find it hard to believe that the Steelers-- a routinely successful team un-liked by many and with at least one hated rival, apparently have not been challenged for this same conduct. Nor have others. I refuse to drink the kool-aid that this vast group of people is just out to get the Patriots. You might think that at least one former player--maybe one looking for attention or with simply no concern about fallout--would step forward and say this ball deflation happens regularly. I just can't see such a diverse group of football people from different eras all closing ranks and declining to admit that this happens. Now, if one or two did come forward I would likely remain skeptical about their assertions and would look closely at them, but I would at least expect to see that much happen and as yet, it has not.

Well, let's see what Brad says:

"I feel like my name has been slandered by using the word bribery," Johnson told Pro Football Now Wednesday afternoon, saying that he tipped equipment managers as he normally would, not specifically to scuff game balls."This has been blown way out of proportion," Johnson texted. "Rich Gannon and I had met the week of the Super Bowl and agreed to work the balls in the week of the Super Bowl, just like we would do for any other game. The balls were used by both teams and fair for everyone. I really don’t understand what the big deal is. Rich Gannon and I talked today, too, and we both laughed at the nonsense of this story.

"I never touched the balls before the game. And no one ever complained, be it the refs, players or quarterbacks. We [he and Gannon] were both fine with all the balls that we played with."

So in summary:
1. No bribery;
2. No deflation of balls, just scuff/rubbing as now allowed but not then;
3. Done with full knowledge and consent of opponent; and most importantly
4. No advantage--balls used by both teams "and fair for everyone".

Maybe that's why nobody's talking about it.

What if someone had called out the Steelers 5 years ago? 10 years ago? 15 years ago? even 40 years ago? If the Steelers were called out for the same thing 40 years ago, you could still have said that it makes no sense that others cheated before them, because some other team would have gotten called out for it at some point up until 1975. There's a first time for everything, and the Patriots are the first - that's my opinion, but obviously I can't prove anything.

Well why wouldn't someone speak out and admit it if it happened 5, 15, 40 years ago? Enough time has passed that they likely would face no repercussions. Maybe a ball-boy or equipment manager who hasn't been involved in football for decades and who really has no legacy to tarnish, if that's even a concern for others. Hell, maybe a tell-all book from such a guy who needs $$$ or who wants his 15 minutes of fame. Yet not a peep. All the more mysterious if it's not that big a deal as some here have suggested-- you'd think it would have popped up in one player or coach's autobiography or another over the past 50 years if it was no biggie or if it was widespread. Show me, please.

Very good points, but I don't think anyone cared. I think the former quarterbacks who are speaking out are the ones who did not deflate balls and I think the guys who did deflate balls are keeping their mouths shut...for now. It's very possible that some ex-qb will eventually come forward and say that he did the same thing.

And of course, it's also possible that Brady didn't do anything, which makes this whole discussion an exercise in revisionist history...at least my parts, anyway :)

Actually Scott, I will stand corrected, at least somewhat, as Terry Bradshaw wrote that teams commonly deflated balls before 2000. That may be why it was not a huge topic of discussion.

“Some teams—who were not the Steelers—after the officials had checked and approved the game balls, would let out a couple of pounds of air to make it easier for the quarterback to grip it. A little less air would make the ball spongier."

Most importantly, however, he noted that both teams played with the same ball.
And there's the rub, so to speak. Which again makes me wonder why that rule is not in place today--both sides using the same ball. There is far less incentive to cheat when your opponent has the exact same equipment or when he can easily and often feel for himself that some league spec is not being followed and he perceives a disadvantage.

I agree with your solution, and I bet it gets implemented. You can say it was because Goodell read your post here, and I won't dispute you :)

I DON'T CARE EITHER. I only brought it up as an example to show a media double standard towards the Pats. I don't care how it's portrayed, Johnson was not supposed to do this. However, you and others seem willing and able to draw lines which make Johnson's actions OK, and the alleged actions by the Pats (key word alleged), which will likely never be proven, not OK. I also love how a line is drawn as to whether he deflated the balls or not.. how has deflating balls become the end all be all of unfair advantage? And why do you assume all QBs would prefer to have had that ball scuffed up. Whatever he may say about it, Gannon threw 4 picks in that SB. Apparently Elway always wanted game balls straight out of the box, so it would have been a disadvantage to him had the opposing QB paid someone to scuff the game balls. Johnson shouldn't have done what he did... however, I say again, I don't care that he did.

Football has just been played differently than other sports like baseball. Teams have had the ability to customize the game balls to some extent (whether legal or not), and I personally have no issue with it. I've brought it up a few times, and you can take it as relevant or non-relevant to this discussion.. but HS and college teams chose their own game balls (stamped with their logo), and that in some cases, these footballs are totally different. Hold a Wilson 1005 compared to a Wilson 1001 circa 2000, and it's a TOTALLY different football. The NFL ball Terry Bradshaw is referring to is different also. The old balls were slimmer in your hand and are definitely easier to throw then current balls.

I'm on the other side of argument, and think the NFL should just let these guys do what they want, short of using stickum, or playing with totally flat balls. Some QBs want more pressure, some want less, and I'm totally fine with allowing them to do that. Any NFL QB can throw a ball that's less than ideal (high or low pressure, worn, wet, muddy), but if one pressure feels more comfortable to him than another, it's all good to me. I think most of this stuff is mental anyway.. I think it's more important that Brady feels comfortable with the ball, and thinks it's at the right pressure, as opposed to gaining a strong advantage using a softer ball. That said, I'd be nearly certain that going forward all teams lose the ability to touch the ball prior to the game.

Per the link I'd included, stretching the rules or outright cheating are a part of this game. I'm not arguing it as right, but football is dirty as hell, and anything you can imagine would create an advantage has been tried. In saying this, I think most of those violations listed in that article had greater impact on games. I think a D line with silicone or vaseline all over their jerseys has more effect on a game, as on every play they are more likely to slip blocks, more likely to be held, etc. I think leg whipping is even worse because it jeopardizes careers. I think the level of advantage gained, or danger created, by a given rules violation should have equal impact on the way it's handled/disciplined by the league. For this reason, I just don't care much at all about the deflate gate... and had the press not blown this up, I don't think the NFL would have either.

Regardless of the differing opinions, let's watch the game!!! :D

Amen! I'm ready for some football!

Go Hawks!!!!!

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Then I'll wait for your report, oh keeper of the facts.

Way to jump to conclusions that we are jumping to conclusions. I thought we were having a discussion?

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Unless there is a body, a smoking gun and someone standing over it covered with blood, you are jumping to conclusions and should not discuss? Okay.

Classless Seahawks lose lolllolololol let the bitching begin bwahahahahha

I'm neither a Seahawks or pats fan. But I find it funny you talking about class. Hahahahahahahaha. Patriots are Probably one of the most classless team in all of sports and Boston is one of the most classless cities in America.

Troll got fed fast. Btw seattle is an awesome city. Just a little poor sportsmanship on my part.

Congrats to Pats Nation!

Excellent game, great playmaking on both sides of the ball, a dash of questionable play calling and some no-names on both teams making big plays. Congrats to the Pats on SB #4. The fracas at the end was unfortunate but doesn't mar an otherwise great game.

I doubt very much if ANY Super Bowl will EVER match the series of plays that happened in the last minute of this game.

Manningham & Tyree flashed thru my mind on that pass play--another unbelievable loss, and then---the Good Lord served up some JUSTICE!

Lol. Look who's talking.

Brock, the Seahawk fans (not including those that post here, which have been nothing but top notch) I have seen on the internet in the last few weeks have been some of the most vulgar, classless excuses I have ever seen in sports discussions. I am so glad that the Seahawks lost. I am only sorry that Russell Wilson had to throw the losing pick. But I am glad that Pete Carroll got to lose in gut wrenching fashion on the biggest stage.

Congrats to the pats and their fans...great game! Fred, I bet you're happy right now...take it all in, buddy!

Wow............
 

Man that was a hell of an exciting game, just what the NFL ordered after the last 2 weeks of sideshows. Belickick/kraft/Brady really wanted this one and their remarks after the game proved it. All championships are special but this one really feels great, down 10 in the 4`th against this def. was a hell of a chore. I`d say 86 Sox, Pats/Rams, and maybe a tie for 3`rd between 2011 Bruins and tonite`s win is how I`d rank them. Seattle will be back, get Wilson a WR, and as long as Bel-Brady are around the Pats will remain a contender. On to pitchers and catchers !!!!!!

Congrats to the Patriots and their fans on an exciting Super Bowl win.

I'm sure Fred is REALLY HAPPY. Congrats Fred.

Congrats to the Pats and their fans. What an amazing game, and 4th quarter comeback.

I hope this thread topic dies down along with the story.

Wow.

Well, I'm happy for you Bill.

It was great - no one can take those two 4th-quarter touchdown drives away from Brady. And even if Wilson had not thrown that pick, the Pats might have made a goal-line stand against Lynch. There's no telling.

I would be much more okay with losing the game if I could have woken up this morning and not read some of the tripe posted by people here who I used to respect. Really classless behavior.

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Definitely not unique to him, but I did think his comments about deflate gate were moronic (and said so here). Charles Haley's comments ("Joe Montana didn't need to cheat", "lost all respect for Brady", etc) yesterday were really stupid as well.

Another double standard, I'm not seeing much outcry over the Falcons blaring extra stadium noise. It's being reported, being discussed some, but definitely not generating the backlash deflate gate did. I think it can easily be argued that blaring crowd noise/supplemented by speakers would have a greater effect on games than deflated balls. If you neutralize the line's ability to hear their protection audibles, the QB's ability to audiblize, or even clearly hear his helmet speaker, it's going to greatly hinder an offense.

Of course you're not seeing much about the Falcons, it's success that breeds contempt, not mediocrity.

I didn't hear about this, but I think it should be stopped. To me that is clearly worse than deflated balls.

By the way, the Seattle Times headline on Monday morning was "DEFLATED".

Scott,
You could kinda see that one coming, right?

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I agree 100%...crowd noise would absolutely be a bigger deterrent than some minute deflated balls.

Same reason you don't hear much about the Broncos getting busted taping opponents in 2010 - three years after the Patriots got busted for Spygate.

Yeah, just see Seattle now, or NO & KC in their heyday. The last play of the Steelers at Denver playoff game in 1989 always stands out in my mind too as an example of how crowd noise effects an O... a confused center snapping before Bubby Brister is ready, game over.

It pains me to say this since I grew up worshipping those 80's-90's Niners teams were , but I totally agree. I think Rice has handled retirement a little better than Jordon, but think the two of them were similar. They were both the best in the game during the times they played (maybe all time), worked harder than anyone when they played, resented those who weren't as obsessed and fully consumed by the sport and competition, and then I think I think had no idea what to do once they retired. At least Rice got to win Dancing with the Stars, but I think he's got a lot of pent up competitive angst otherwise. Very interested to see how Kobe does in retirement.

Since they were greats, their opinions often seem to carry more weight than perhaps they should.. but being in the HOF doesn't mean you will objective, and immune to bitterness and jealousy.

Absolutely the case here. Don't wanna bring up talk about the haters again, but there was definitely a lot of that going on during deflate gate... and think it's still going on with all these sniping comments by former players. The media is savvy enough to pick up on how widespread this sentiment was (twitter, chatrooms, comments to stories on their own websites), adjust their content accordingly, and fan the flames further. I watch CBS news pretty regularly and COULD NOT believe they lead two consecutive broadcasts with deflate gate, when there's an intensifying war in Ukraine, as well as any number of other "lead" stories. Gotta think there was some serious behind the scenes arguing going on at some of these news outlets during this story (the true newsmen vs the ratings honks).

I wonder what the 2010 Broncos head coach is doing now? :D

I'm not sure what to make of this, but it does sound pretty strange, right? Thoughts?

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/...-lines-reports

"Yette found it surprising that the officials' locker room attendant was on the field, trying to hand him a ball, because officials' locker room attendants don't typically have ballhandling responsibilities during NFL games."

David, that doesn't make sense. The 'K' balls have the letter 'K' and a numeral hand-written on them with black marker (for non-Championship games they are pre-stamped). The first ball used is 'K 1' and for the last two NFC championship games, 'K 1' lasted deep into the 2nd half ('K 1' was still in use for the fumbled on-side kick in this year's game). There's a reason for that - both teams' kickers, punters and snappers prefer to use the same ball as long as possible, as it continues to get worked in and they are all used to handling it.

If a 'K' ball that was not one of the original 16 were given to the K-Ball Coordinator, it wouldn't matter, as the special teams players know which ball is being used in the game, and they are going to demand it. Once it's no longer in play, 'K 2' is used. There is no way a stray K ball will get introduced into the game.